Electric supply for welders??

Anonymous-0 · Aug 1, 2012

Was talking about rods yesterday and it was suggested that I upgrade from my little box. Anyway, it happens that someone brought a lincoln 225 over with their household stuff and can't use it because the plugs don't match and they can't change anything in a rented place.

I looked on amazon and it says they require 230 volts... US electric is at 60 hz I believe.

Normal house current here is 230 volts at 50hz. Would I be able to just change the plug and plug the lincoln and use it? Or would the cycles (hz?) throw it off? I would just try it, but the welder is about 300 miles away and I have to make transport arrangements (if it's worth it)......

Please one of the smart guys jump in please so I can close this deal.

buickanddeere · Aug 1, 2012

Close enough for a welder.Current will run at approx 120%
of the dial rating.

Anonymous-0 · Aug 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 12:08:46 08/01/12) Close enough for a welder.Current will run at approx 120%
of the dial rating.

How many wires goe to the appliance (in this case welder) plug?

We have 3 for the house current. 1 hot 1 neutral 1 ground. A tester on ground and either of the other 2 will get 115 volts and across hot and neutral 230 volts. So, is it just a simple plug change?

John T · Aug 1, 2012

If its a simple AC transformer buzz box welder it will still work at 50 or 60 HZ.

The wall outlet must obviously match the welders plug, many of the cheap Lincoln Buzz Box AC Welders use 2 pole 3 wire grounding 230 volt 50 amp receptacles (2 Hots L1 & L2 plus an Equipment GroundING Conductor) and plugs and will work if 50 or 60 HZ, so get a wall outlet to match the welders plug and go for it

NOTE the wires (guessing 3, two hots and Ground) feeding that receptacle must also be rated to match the welders current and similar, the overload protection device (circuit breaker or fuze to those non sparkies) must be matched with the wires ampacity.......I.E. you may need 50 or 60 amp rated wire and a 50 or 60 amp breaker (subject to welder currrent) to serve that welder outlet, NOT say a 30 amp 230 VOLT branch circuit WELLLLLLL DUHHHHHHHHHH

GET IT?????? NOT only do you need 230 volts and a 2 pole 3 wire grounding outlet and plug,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU NEED A BRANCH CIRCUIT (wire plus breaker plus outlet) WITH SUFFICIENT AMPACITY NOTTTTTTTTT A CIRCUIT FOR ONLY 15 OR 20 OR 30 AMPS !!!!!!!!!!! (Assuming its say a 50 amp input welder, not a light wimpy 15 or 20, but if so a household branch circuit might handle it)

John T

Anonymous-0 · Aug 1, 2012

I'll check, but I believe our main breaker is 40 amp (gotta look tho). Runs everything just fine (oven, grain press, buzz saw, and a couple other things use 400 volt). Sounds like it's sumpin dave's fingers shouldn't be in. I'll see if I can catch the guy and get the welder and have a plug hooked up for it.

Thanks.

David G · Aug 1, 2012

I would agree with the others, but 50HZ will tend to stick a
rod a little easier, there is more off time.

John T · Aug 1, 2012

I cant speak to wiring across the pond,,,,,,,but in the USA many of the old cheap Lincoln AC buzz box welders are 230 volt single phase and they would require THREE WIRES:

L1 (say black) L2 (say red) and theres 230 volts line to line (i.e. L1 to L2) PLUS an Equipment GroundING conductor (say green or bare) AND NOTE I SAID EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR THATS NOTTTTTTTTTT A NEUTRAL

UNLIKE WHAT YOU DESCRIBE, here our typical appliance outlets have 3 wires, but we use 120 volts, so our three wires would be 1 HOT,,,,,,1 Neutral,,,,,,,,1 Equipment Ground

If your outlets have BOTH 115 and 230 inside them ???????? you must have 2 hots (L1 & L2) and a Neutral ORRRRRR Ground BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTT thats a no no here, if we need BOTH 120 and 240 then we must run 4 wires, 2 hots, Neutral, Ground.

If that welder is a straight 230 IE no 115, you need THREE WIRES, 2 hots L1 & L2 plus and Equipment GroundING conductor AND THATS NOTTTTTTTTTTTT THE SAME AS THE NEUTRAL

Get it?????????

John T

John T · Aug 1, 2012

A typical household panels "main breaker" is more like 100 or 200 amps over here, maybe 60 amps yearsssssss ago. A typical branch circuit breaker is 15 or 20 or 30 amps (maybe for a 230 volt water heater) but maybe 50 for a stove, we use 115 or 230 volts NOT any 400 in households

Dont get yer volts n yer amps confused now !!!

Im headed to the fair will check with ya tomorrow

John T

RMinVa · Aug 1, 2012

If the fan motor is 60hz, running on 50hz will make
it run hotter. May not be a problem.

Geo-TH,In · Aug 1, 2012

Dave,
Agree, the fan will run slower and the rod may stick easier. Try using the farmer's 6011 rod. Either the 1/8 inch for thin metals and the 3/16 for the larger. Mine doesn't like 1/4 inch rods. The 7011 rod seems to take more power to burn. I have a lincoln 225 buzz box and new they were only around $225 at lowes a few years ago. I love mine.

They have a small duty cycle. Slower fan, means even smaller duty cycle. You may want to monitor the transformer temps.

I was told the older 225 were made of copper, newer one are made of aluminun.

I wouldn't drive 300 miles for one, especially at the price you pay for gas, unless it's free.

George

Anonymous-0 · Aug 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:00:33 08/01/12) Dave,
Agree, the fan will run slower and the rod may stick easier. Try using the farmer's 6011 rod. Either the 1/8 inch for thin metals and the 3/16 for the larger. Mine doesn't like 1/4 inch rods. The 7011 rod seems to take more power to burn. I have a lincoln 225 buzz box and new they were only around $225 at lowes a few years ago. I love mine.

They have a small duty cycle. Slower fan, means even smaller duty cycle. You may want to monitor the transformer temps.

I was told the older 225 were made of copper, newer one are made of aluminun.

I wouldn't drive 300 miles for one, especially at the price you pay for gas, unless it's free.

George

Real cheap.... Guy hasn't answered me yet. Afraid someone else jumped on it. Should know something by tomorrow. Won't have to pick it up myself, wife's company has a courier that goes within a couple miles twice a week.....

not a showstopper if I don't get it, satisfied with the one I have for no more than I have to do.... Just a little taste of home more than anything else :roll:

buickanddeere · Aug 1, 2012

???

Are you dwelling in an authentic German area or
some sort of American Base area.
To the best of my understanding the European
standard is 220 from line to neutral. And by
default also 220 from line to ground
BUT........the ground is not a current carrying
conductor.
Unless the welder had an internal fault and
the live line energized the metal case.
Check locally before proceeding. That 115V
between the ground and neutral and 115 between
ground and line is strange. I would miss your
crusty remarks here if you electrocuted yourself.

Anonymous-0 · Aug 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:07:12 08/01/12) ???

Are you dwelling in an authentic German area or
some sort of American Base area.
To the best of my understanding the European
standard is 220 from line to neutral. And by
default also 220 from line to ground
BUT........the ground is not a current carrying
conductor.
Unless the welder had an internal fault and
the live line energized the metal case.
Check locally before proceeding. That 115V
between the ground and neutral and 115 between
ground and line is strange. I would miss your
crusty remarks here if you electrocuted yourself.

Could be off on my description.... Have to do it again and verify. Just remember that I was scheming to just use the two wires that made the 115 volts to use 115 volt tools.... Figured that it'd be cheaper than a fire to just by my tools here and use a transformer for the couple little 115 volt things I have.....

buickanddeere · Aug 1, 2012

whoa, wait a minute.
If you have "400 V" then you have two live lines
and a neutral.
If it's an overhead service then the neutral is
the dreaded combo affair. All services should have
a robust ground rod system to attempt to
compensate.
If neutral current if flowing on a ground
system/between ground rods etc back to utility
transformer. It's making a voltage gradient
between a utility service and an electrical load
somewhere.
Any reports of tingle or stray voltage and live
stock being shocked while drinking etc?
European three phase is often called 220/380V
and even 240/416 depending where and when.

Some odd ball 60Hz 240/416 in downtown Toronto
as an experiment in the 1960's. Didn't take off
and be popular as expected. Not that it matters in
your application but I did get a nasty bite from
it one time.
A security guard turned the breaker back on
while I was working on the circuit after an office
women complained about some lights were out.

bill mart · Aug 1, 2012

probably before "lock out tag out" Bill

Walt Davies · Aug 1, 2012

John T that neutral and the ground wire are connected at the main box and go to ground. 220 has two hot wires the neutral is there for looks only or In case you want a 110 outlet. When I was a kid we only had two wires for 110 and 220 or three if the stove had a 110 light or something. In the fifties the wires companies talked the government into running a second ground wire for so called safety reasons. Sold a third more wire for them or billions in profit . The idea was that the neutral wire might come loose and you would shocked.
Walt

Walt Davies · Aug 1, 2012

Dave test your voltage it should be 115 to ground on a single
wire and 230 across both hot wires. If I'm not mistaken you
may have 230 on a single wire to ground. If so don't use the
welder without a converter or it's all smoke and no welder.
Walt

jm. · Aug 1, 2012

You guys will find this hard to believe, early 1969 40 + years ago I had to scroung up $ 89.00 to buy a linclon 225.. That thing has been thru pure He** and no telling how many kids have learned to weld on the thing but after 40 years still does a pretty good job. We have a 600 desiel pipliner for the biog stuf around here but that 225 has been a good welder. Current requirements a crow foot 220 and it is ready to go. we have ran this one off of ever kind of generator in the world and it still works.

The Dukester · Aug 1, 2012

For sticking rod get a left-handed oil can and fill it with arc oil to squirt on the sticking rod. I say left handed oil can because I presume you hold the stinger in your right hand.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

FarmerZeb · Aug 1, 2012

Dave,

I can confirm if you are on normal DE power you do
NOT have 2 115 legs making 220v. You have 1 220v
leg to neutral. For you 2 hots would make 440v.
I bought a lot of welders in German for my Service
and Recovery Section awhile back but they were are
from local dealer down in Kitzigen.

you could call Lincoln DE and ask them directly.

Lincoln Electric Deutschland
Christinenstraße 2a
Ratingen
D-40880
Germany
Telefon-Nr.: +49 (0)2102-71396-0
Faxnummer: +49 (0)2102-71396-31

-paul

Anonymous-0 · Aug 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 17:59:24 08/01/12) Dave,

I can confirm if you are on normal DE power you do
NOT have 2 115 legs making 220v. You have 1 220v
leg to neutral. For you 2 hots would make 440v.
I bought a lot of welders in German for my Service
and Recovery Section awhile back but they were are
from local dealer down in Kitzigen.

you could call Lincoln DE and ask them directly.

Lincoln Electric Deutschland
Christinenstraße 2a
Ratingen
D-40880
Germany
Telefon-Nr.: +49 (0)2102-71396-0
Faxnummer: +49 (0)2102-71396-31

-paul

Good info. Thanks!!

buickanddeere · Aug 1, 2012

You are so far wrong.
Walk into your local electrical code inspector office spouting your rhetoric and lets see how far you get?

It's not a 2nd ground wire. There is an insulated current carrying conductor called the neutral because it's held near to earth potential.Hence "neutral".
The bare ground IS NOT a current carrying conductor and not part of the path in a 120V North American or 220V European circuit.
The earth connection at the utility transformer and service panel neutral is to hold the neutral to earth potential. Not to carry neutral current between ground rods.

buickanddeere · Aug 1, 2012

Please stop before you injure or kill somebody.
What 120V in Germany? It's 220/380,230/400 or 240/416V.
50Hz for just about everything except some electric railroads.

Anonymous-0 · Aug 2, 2012

George, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it appears that you're no too sure about what you're talking about. As far as the machine in question goes, the best people to contact are Lincoln. They may make special 50 HZ AC 225 machines for the Euro market.

6011 isn't referred to as the farmers rod, 6013 is because it's easy to use but not the best choice for most projects. 6011 sizes range from 3/32", 1/8", 5/32", 3/16" and may come in 1/4" but I've never seen any. Burning 1/4" 6011 would be a PIA as well. 7011 doesn't exist. Duty cycle isn't based on the size of the fan or referred to as small or large. On a lot of newer machines the fan doesn't even come on unless it needs to. How do you monitor the transformer temp? According to a long time poster on this forum who contacted Lincoln, AC 225's have never had copper winding's.

36 Coupe · Aug 3, 2012

I bought my Lincoln 225 in 1965 for 93.00.I have been inside older ones oiling fan bearings, cleaning the switch.No copper.The fable persists.One joker was all set to scrap a 225 for the copper in it.Plenty of these welders for sale for 100.00 here,saw an ac/dc Lincoln for 185.00. on Craigslist.

Electric supply for welders??

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