Car AC question R-12 and 134A

old · Jul 24, 2012

Have a car that still is set up to run the R-12 and ya it works ok as long as your driving a long trip as in 40 or so plus miles. But is your doing around the town stuff you still do not stay very cool. So I am guessing you can not just mix the new 134A and the old R-12 with out causing some sort of major problems right??
Thanks

wisbaker · Jul 24, 2012

You can't mix the refrigerants. 134 has a different vapor pressure and uses a different lubrication package that's not compatible with the R12.

paul · Jul 24, 2012

Now they are phasing out 134 as well, so in a couple years we are doing something else that is not compatable at all.

Good luck.

--->Paul

BillyinStoughton · Jul 24, 2012

Affirmative. That's a NO GO on the mixing of refrigerants or their corresponding oils. R-12 uses a mineral based oil and R-134a uses PAG oil (polyalkylene glycol). I've seen it done in some commercial refrigeration applications. Let's just say the results have been costly.

The problem is that the hoses most likely used on your cars original R-12 system will not be compatible with R134a...and most likely neither will the seals in the compressor, the rating on the high pressure cutout, or the expansion valve.

Sorry Old, but there is no good solution to this one unless you've got a little R-12 laying around...

Geo-TH,In · Jul 24, 2012

Old, How much trouble can a person get into if they still have 100 pounds of R12?
George

bo · Jul 24, 2012

I have two of the small cans of r 12 kicking around in the barn. Give me $10 and shipping and I'll shoot them out to you.

John_PA · Jul 24, 2012

How old is the car? Do you like the car? Sanden makes complete a/c kits for most vehicles. Just replace the whole system. It will be around $2000 not including labor.

It's not that hard to do.

Or, if you can find a shop that can recover the R-12(it is illegal to vent R-12 into the atmosphere. Every time you vent R-12 into the atmosphere, God kills a puppy.) and fill it with R-134a.

becareful not to accidentally release the pressure on the R-12 system as it will go into the atmosphere. There is a fitting on the low and high pressure sides of the system where you could accidentally release teh pressure. Coincidentally, they make R-134a retrofit kits that come with adapters that thread onto both of these connections, so, after you pay a shop to recover the R-12 and oils, you thread on the new connectors, and fill teh system with cans from the autoparts store.

But, whatever you do, do not just vent the R-12 into the atmosphere. The 3 letter government organization responsible for hugging trees will come beat you with a hawthorn switch. It is very easy to accidentally vent the R-12 into the atmosphere and even if there are some incompatible oils still left in the system it will still get cold when filled with R-134a.

bo · Jul 24, 2012

Whoa..just checked Ebay...that stuff is available but going for a real good buck. I take back the 10 bucks but we can talk sweet deal for you if you wish.

tjiniowa · Jul 24, 2012

Get some Freeze 12 on ebay, I got 3 cans for my 5288 this spring for like 50 or $60, it can be mixed with the R12 no problem, I have been using it in this tractor for over 6 years, previous owner did how long before too. I have to add a can or two every other year. It does take a different set of fittings, but I cobbled up my 134 gauge set and got a side can tap and filled it through the low pressure side. Can't seem to find Freeze 12 in any parts store, but it is on Ebay.

Geo-TH,In · Jul 24, 2012

I'm thinking the 3 letter agency will also slap you with a $25,000 fine for selling R12 to a person who doesn't have the right paper work. The seller is to turn in paper work of the sale too. Would someone please tell me if I'm right? I have 3 30# bottles and afraid to do anything with it. No longer have a use for it. I purchased it before there was a tax placed on it.
George

mite-help · Jul 24, 2012

if i remember correctly, some of the early r12 to 134a conversion kits came out with the green o-rings to replace the r12 o-rings that 134a would eat up--also some 'barrier' ester? oil-supposed to coat the hoses to stand the 134a-[part of the freeze 12 mixture is 134a, btw.] used to use a lot of freeze 12-ran it 10% less than capacity--had pretty good luck with it--those were bad years in automotive a/c. compressor failure big time until they got the oils & other things figured out.

ldj · Jul 24, 2012

butane propane?

Bryan inIowa · Jul 24, 2012

what s the year make and model? Few options on retro fitting . Sometimes guy can get buy with evac, drain oil out add ester or pag oil , new fittings and r134 it. cheapest patch is some frig or freeze 12 ? or other blend . Just can't mix 134 with any other freon . Any questions give me a call in the am
319 -329-0915

old · Jul 24, 2012

Car is a 1991 Toyota Corolla and it still has the R-12 fittings. I know how to switch it over to the 134A as for the add on fittings and the system is still working as is but seems to not blow out as cold as it should be but then when it is 100 out I know it is working extra hard.

toadady · Jul 24, 2012

before you do much, what is the temp coming right out of the ducts/vents? if it's in the 40's that's all it's going to do,

Red Mud · Jul 24, 2012

Freeze 12 will work like the R12 did, I have several cases so hadn't tried to buy any in a while but I bet you can still buy it.

mite-help · Jul 24, 2012

hi old--wow---a 1991 auto with a r12 system that still works some-!. my question is, do you know the auto well enough to know that the system is still r12 for sure? [never mind the fittings, side tappers & right hose can put anything in there----if so, a top-off with the real stuff would be nice------it would sure last at this rate of loss----

Royse · Jul 24, 2012

After reading this post, I know that you cannot put 134A in a 1991 car that came with R12.
In 2001, before I knew that, I put one of those cheap converter kits on my 1991 Plymouth.
I installed the oil that came with the kit per the instructions and then had to add 134a to it
once a year because the leak was never fixed.
Did that for 10 years.
AC still worked when I sold the car last spring.
Luck favors the foolish I guess. :shock:
Do not try this at home and all other disclaimers that may fit!

M-MAN · Jul 24, 2012

You can sell it to anyone that has a refrigerant certification card. R12 is on both types & there isn't any paperwork unless you have a buisness selling it.

old · Jul 24, 2012

Well I can not be 100% sure but ALL fittings are in fact the R-12 type and not add ons or other changes that can be seen on the system so have to pretty much figure it is R-12 or the cheap person O got it from took off the 134A conversion to it and I have no idea how to check it to know for sure what is has or does not have other then going by the fittings

MarkB_MI · Jul 25, 2012

The main problem is that the oils are incompatible. When people started converting from R-12 to R-134a, the conventional wisdom was that the system needed to be evacuated and flushed before switching to R-134a. However, it turned out that the old oil tends to just separate out and not cause much trouble. So it became common to just evacuate and refill using R-134a. Also, you can get ester oil that is compatible with the old oil.

With an old car, the a/c is probably on its last legs, anyway. If you're going to do a conversion, you should probably go the whole hog: replace the dryer, flush out the system and probably replace the compressor, too. Then it's a matter of evacuating and filling with R-134a. If this sounds like too much money, then leave it alone.

Geo-TH,In · Jul 25, 2012

So, what's 30# worth?

mudcreek183 · Jul 25, 2012

R-12 can still be bought if you have the card i bought 2 12 oz. cans last month at 60$ a can at O'Reilly's and put it in for friend who was doing a restoring a car he wanted R-12 in it as far as the 30# if you bought the before you need the card to get them as I remember you have no problem wilt the you bought them legaly if want rto sell them there are several gas Co. that will buy them from you I can't recall there name now just google R-12 The EPA card is not hard to get just a real short test if you do not want a resale on it.

Geo-TH,In · Jul 25, 2012

Old, here is what I found about R12 because I've been concerned about selling mine. It seems that the small cans carry a $5000 per can fine if caught selling it. You won't get in trouble with the APE(backward) if you sell 20# or larger cans to a licensed HVAC person. Here is what I found on another sight dated 2009. You can also get in trouble if you use the cans too.

Question: can I legally sell 4 cans of R-12 Freon?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer:

If you bought it recently especally for less than $ 10.00 a pound, it was not R12 but some kind of substitue. R12 has not been made in the US for some 5 or 6 years. It is against the law to sell any amount less than a 20lb cylinder to any one that is not licensed. It carries a fine up to $ 5,000 and or up to 5 years in jail for each offense. So selling 4 cans could result in a $ 20,000 fine and 20 years in jail.If some one turned him in for selling it they could get a $ 5,000 reward.

If you want to sell it, find a licensed shop that would want it.

George

Dave Rogers · Jul 25, 2012

Pulled a vacuum, added oil and r134a in a 89 ranger in 01. Still cold and working fine. Most of the shops that do conversions do the same.

Hobo,NC · Jul 25, 2012

(quoted from post at 01:36:39 07/25/12) Have a car that still is set up to run the R-12 and ya it works ok as long as your driving a long trip as in 40 or so plus miles. But is your doing around the town stuff you still do not stay very cool. So I am guessing you can not just mix the new 134A and the old R-12 with out causing some sort of major problems right??
Thanks

Classic radiator cooling fan gone bad 12 are 134,,, most have 2 one runs when AC switched on are when head pressures go high,,, My bet is on a fan has bit the dust... Any alternative is a blend of 134@ and probably 95% 134@ are more nuttin special about it... Yer yota will cool satisfactory with 134@ if converted and ALL the cooling fans WORK! They will not cool as well as R12 at idle are low speeds but acceptable,,, on the highway it will cool as good as 12...

Cold, far it up and turn the AC on does a are one fan turn on and blow hard. (must blow hard/good) If a fan is not available you can make a donor work... You can not have 2 many condenser fans. Yotas have the best of the best when it comes 2 the AC.

Any thing else you will need a set of gauges to diagnosis it.
http://www.aircondition.com/tech/questions/82/

I have a soft spot for old Yotas and also have a fleet of'em,,, early 90's were as good as they get...

old · Jul 25, 2012

Both fans run just fine. Got this car last winter and the guy said he had to have it charged once a year or so and I did not look then to see if it was 134A but did a few weeks back and it is still the R-12 which I can not do any thing with due to the EPA laws

Hobo,NC · Jul 25, 2012

Bo,,, If old does not want it I do....

Car AC question R-12 and 134A

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