OT/this is just wrong

Watched the news last night while waiting for the weather to come on. Caught a story about an incident in Mesquite, Tx, a suburb of Dallas.

Sunday night, a man and his wife were awakened to someone trying to break into their back yard which is fenced by a 6 ft wood privacy fence and a locked gate. The man has a plumbing business and stores tools & supplies in his back yard. He also has a pool and by law the pool must be fenced and the gate have a lock.

The man got up and got his 9mm. He went outside and told the burglar to leave him and his property alone. Through the gaps in the fence boards, he could see someone on the outside of the fence. He fired a warning shot into the ground, scaring the burglar off.

Sometime during this incident the police were called. When they police arrived, the man told the police everything that had happened including firing the warning shot.

The police promptly arrested the homeowner for discharging his weapon in the city limits. He spent the rest of the night and the next day in jail.

Official police statement is the homeowner should have called 911 and that firing his weapon was unnecessary and reckless. Apparently, the police feel neither the man, his wife or his property were in eminent danger and he should have waited for the police to get there. They also said the man had some warrants for traffic tickets. (They didn't know that at the time they arrested him and that's not why they arrested him.)

According to the news, he goes before a judge today to find out whether he will get his gun back.

My opinion - arresting this guy was just plain wrong. Texas has what is called the "Castle Law" which states you have the right to protect your life and your property. Even without the "Castle Law" the police were wrong.

As they say, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

I agree, Nancy!These days,it seems that the lawabideing citizen protecting thier home/family is now the "bad guy",and the criminal is now the "victim".Very sad.

prolly more to the story but he could have kept his mouth shut also.....

Like in the book Atlas Shrugged they are writing the laws so we do not know where we stand in the eye of the law, so we will be paralyzed into inaction. He probably would have been better off just shooting the s.o.b.

It has been the trend for several years, the law is not for the law abiding any more, the law today is geared for and played by the criminals. Its all about money, the plumber will pay his fines because he has to work, if they had of caught the dopehead who was intending to steal tools to sell for dope money he would have laid up in jail eating for free until the charges were dropped, as well as costing the tax payers additional money for his court appointed lawyer.

It is a sad day when being totally honest gets you placed in jail, and being friends with the D A keeps you out of jail even when you are guilty.
There is nothing reckless about a warning shot, police do it. If it made the thief leave and never come back, the cops should have bought the homeowner a cup of coffee!

Yeah he kinda should have not pulled the trigger, no matter the state. The other side of a property fence is not his property, bad. 'Castle' if like Mass, means the 'inside' of your home.... not garages, barns or yards. And 'the swing of the door or reach of a window kinda colonial wording, so bad hombre has to be 3 feet on the carpet.
We had a 'stand your ground law' coming up for a vote just before the Florida Tyrone / Zimmerman thing. That bill is back on the bottom of the list now.
A few years ago my cousin- a contractor, pulled into the driveway of a house he bought to flip (when such a thing was possible)- big hole on the bottom of the garage door- a guys squirms out of it! He pulls out his Ruger- the crook - tells him, yo gringo! you better not shot me! I ain't in your house, you sure don't live here man- I can tell! I ain't in your garage no more either... he is walking backward with his hands up... into the road. When he is standing on the pavement he tells my cousin 'ok you better just call the cops and report this, cause if you shoot me here, you will be in more trouble than me by far... so nothing gone, no harm done. hasta la vista dude!' runs away- sure can't shoot him in the back. Cops show up, cuz tells them the story, as they are sitting there laughing their butts off... another guy comes out the hole in the door... and runs away.... oh well, there goes another one...

I agree fully, but unfortunately in this day and age you really need to keep your trap shut. Anymore than yes or no answers is volunteering way to much information.

Just be glad you all are in Texas and not in Massachusetts. You have to make every attempt to flee the scene before using any deadly force be it a gun, knife, 2x4, fists etc. There was a case where a criminal fell and broke his leg trying to rob someone, sued the property owner, and won.

As much as I'm pro Second Amendment and approve of the castle doctrine, I've got to say I side with the police on ths one as far as the guy being wrong in doing what he did. Even so I believe the part about locking the guy up was going a bit too far.

I say I agree with the cops because someone on the other side of a fence from you, and not on your property, is not considered an immediate threat to you at all. For all the guy knew the noise they heard could have been a drunk headed home bouncing against the fence because he couldn't stand up straight, a dog trying to dig under, etc, etc. In other words the guy more than likely had no idea what was on the other side of the fence and therefore had no real reason to feel like he was in any immediate danger, especially if he was carrying a firearm, without something more substantial than the sound of someone/something on the other side of a fance to base hus feelings on. Had someone come over, or through the fence either one, and made hostile advances on the guy, then he would have had every right to shoot, and if properly trained with the weapon plenty of time to do so before he would have been in 'immediate' danger. Even then, the simple act of stating loudly and clearly that you are armed, followed by the sound of a hammer cocking, a slide being racked, etc, would more than likely have been all the deterent the guy needed to prevent even that scenerio from happening as most crooks do not want to deal with someone who is armed and therfore not an easy target.

As far as firing the weapon into the ground, it was nothing more than a wasted shot that, so it seems, was in violation of a city ordinance banning the discharge of a firearm within city limits. That being the case the guy was wrong on two accounts. The first is that if your going to fire your weapon in "self defense" you'd better be aiming it at the object you fear because castle doctrines don't allow for 'warning shots'but do allow for shots fired with the purpose of actually protecting your life. Not to mention safe handling practices for a firearm are clear about not firing your weapon until your on target and know 110% sure what your target is. The ground is not really a valid target in this case (althouhg it is better than firing into the air). That said firing at the ground, expecially at night, the guy had no way of knowing wether the bullet would lodge in the dirt or strike a rock and wind up in a neighbors house. So, firing into the ground did nothing but cause him to break a law designed to protect others in the community from irresponsible gun owners doing something stupid that gives the rest of us a bad name.

Granted I will say that there is a fine line sometimes between right and wrong when it comes to defending yourself in a case like this. Unfortunately I think the guy actually did use a bit of poor judgment in this case. I think he should have probably been given a fine, etc to make him think about his actions the next time, but I think jail time was a bit much.

Freedom is not free, if we want responsible government it will take action on our part, our inaction allows garbage like this to survive and grow. We have an elected government, if we get something we don't want (like this) we elected the wrong people. I don't know how Texas laws are, is the local Judge that will hear this case elected or appointed? Can they be recalled? If appointed can the elected official that appointed the looser Judge be forced to stand a recall? Was it a City police officer that made the arrest or a Sheriff's Deputy? If it was the Sheriff can they be recalled? If city, can the mayor or city council men be forced into a recall? If recall is not an option (and from the insanity we have in Wisconsin that might be good) when will these elected officials stand for election and can you find people to run against them based on garbage like this? To clarify my position I am not in favor of the recall election currently occurring here in Wisconsin, I think it is nothing more than our public employee unions throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way. Politicians THEY endorsed have ruined the industrial base, it's only fair they start living like the rest of Wisconsinites that are working in a service economy. I have been in favor of some of the recalls that have occurred in local and county government on both sides of the river here (Wisconsin and Michigan). There is a political movement up in the Northwoods called ACE (Americans for Constitutional Enforcement) near as I can figure there a little right of the Tea Party, their willingness to circulate recall petitions when a politician does something stupid has forced some of our more abundant officials to the center or into retirement.

The only time you should fire the gun in that situation is if you intend to take the bad guy's life and then only if he's fool enough to advance on you even though you have a gun pointed at his chest.

The bad guy was on the other side of the fence, so nobody was in any imminent danger.

He would have to threaten you with a gun of his own through the fence, or breach the fence and advance on you in order for "Castle Law" or "Stand Your Ground" to be an effective defense.

You do not learn "warning shots" in self defense training. It's shoot to kill, or don't bother to pull the gun.

What makes you think the perp was not on the home owners land. Lots of folks have a fenced in back yard with a side gate.......don't know anyone with a gate into a next door yard.....maybe a rear ally if the property has an allyway.

Rick

Wayne,
Couldnt have said it better. I am definitely pro-gun. But I cannot see where this guy was defending his or his families life.

As wierd as some of these laws are, he could have waited for the thief to come through the fence and corner the homeowner with no where to retreat, then he would have been justified.

But, now the owner is charged, when in essence he prevented a robbery, or worse.
Rick

Nancy. I used to live by Mesquite. Serviced their generators for ten years. Not the smartest people to deal with. Not a town I would want to live in. Crime is worse there than south Dallas.

Think of it this way. The plumber sounds like the kind of a guy who would shoot at a sound out deer hunting. You might have made that sound walking in the brush a few yards away. I would not want to go hunting with him or live anywhere near him.

(quoted from post at 07:22:50 05/31/12) Just be glad you all are in Texas and not in Massachusetts. You have to make every attempt to flee the scene before using any deadly force be it a gun, knife, 2x4, fists etc. There was a case where a criminal fell and broke his leg trying to rob someone, sued the property owner, and won.

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He would not have won if I had been on the jury

(quoted from post at 07:58:11 05/31/12)

(quoted from post at 07:22:50 05/31/12) Just be glad you all are in Texas and not in Massachusetts. You have to make every attempt to flee the scene before using any deadly force be it a gun, knife, 2x4, fists etc. There was a case where a criminal fell and broke his leg trying to rob someone, sued the property owner, and won.

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He would not have won if I had been on the jury

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That's just cause you's a big bully.......... :shock:

Just saw on fox news about a kid being suspended from school and charged with assault for spitballs..........

Is it to believe????

Here"s a link to the video interview and news report.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/18661404/homeowner-jailed-for-firing-warning-shot

He should have let the guy inter the property before confronting him. Indiana has passed a new deadly force law. In Indiana you do not have to back down if someone is breaking in or is going to harm you or your family. This law is not just limited to your property its good in the whole state. If wants to check it out go to WWW.IN.Gov CODE IC 35-41-3-2.

Had something along those lines happen in the area where my farm is located.
3:00 in the afternoon three guys on their way home get one hopped up and he gets out to break into one of the house along the route. Homeowner hears him and picks up his long gun and points it at the potential burgler through the glass front door and tells him to go away which he does. To the house next door, his brother-in-law (75 year old), and first victim calls the brother-in-law to warn him and calls the police. Burgler kicks the door in and has one leg inside and is slamming his shoulder into the door when This homeowner comes up from the basement with his 16 gauge and blows a hole in the burgler's leg. Sheriff was actually clos enough to hear the shot looked at the guy rolling on the ground and provided no aid till the medic arrived--burgler almost didn't make it.
The good news is it has been a month and there have been no actions taken against the homeowner.
So ther eis common sense some places.

NCWayne, I agree he did the wrong thing, however, I have no use for "Warning Shots" If I ever have a criminal that close to my house, they will be carried away, I will not tollerate a criminal on my property, nor should I have to. All this bs of expecting Victims to retreat is crap. Every criminal that is stupid enough to cross someone elses property line that they were not invited to cross deserves to die. Sorry, What ever happened to Victims rights in this ignorant abundant country of ours???? This type of incident and the abundant press thinking it's horrible if the criminals get shot and killed simply makes me sick.

Agree. I would have just found a comfortable spot and waited for the sucker to do his thing, and then I'd do my thing.

What it really boils down too is he was supposed to wait until he got shot and then shoot back instead of sending off a warning shot that avoided anyone getting hurt.

1130Leo A word of caution, Just hope Chevytahoe doesnt read your post. He wants you to restrain from dropping the hammer on perps. Stupid coment I Know but thats opinions I don't share. The fence just may have been Inset a couple of feet on his property, making the castle effective for his defense. LOU.
P.S.I have CCW permit.

(quoted from post at 09:29:33 05/31/12) P.S.I have CCW permit.

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Boy Louis..... I sure hope you don't get PMS to go wif it :shock:

The nuts are running the asylum anymore. :>(

Allan

Boy it seems like we the owners of property don t have any rights even tho we pay for the land & pay the taxes on it .
There is always someone telling us what we can or can t do.
Seems like the elected officals forget after they were put in office that they work for us . Its just sad that you can t take them & tar & feather them like you could in times long gone and run them out of town.

John

Somehow that story doesn't surprise me too much. Having lived in Mesquite for many years up until 8 years ago when I found my slice of heaven in the country. Mesquite used to have a good attitude and then the gates opened up and the community became a lot darker than it once was which is about the time the attitudes changed.....as well as us seeking flight. Crying shame, as the population was less than 20 K when we moved there, and was nearing 200 K when we left. With crowds comes problems. I feel for the guy, he should have just shot the guy inside the fence and said he feared for his life and he would have never gone to jail.....not to mention he would have eliminated one of the many useless ones who prefer to steal from others.

I so glad that I live in a state that if I want to go out in my front yard and empty my 9MM into the ground at 2 AM I can still do it, not that I am going to waste the Ammo. There are no laws or ordinances to stop me. Might wake up the neighbors but there is not much they can do about it but complain, especially if I was shooting at a snake, two legged or otherwise.It is amazing how some parts of our country have allowed their little freedoms to slip away. It does help to voice your opinions to local governments and get involved.

"Official police statement is the homeowner should have called 911 and that firing his weapon was unnecessary and reckless. Apparently, the police feel neither the man, his wife or his property were in eminent danger and he should have waited for the police to get there."

I also have to agree with the cops on this one. One of his neighbors was probably who turned him in because they don't want him shooting towards their homes and families again.

my concealed carry teacher told us to never fire a warning shot and if you shoot, tell police that you felt in danger. also don't shoot them while running away. whistle; they will prolly turn around and then blow them away!

We just had an election where the current sheriff was re-elected after empting an assault rifle in a guy doing about 80mph. Cops had chased him all over the county. Carjacked a guys welding truck. His opponent lost the election 2 to 1. I think the people in this country are getting fed up with a lot of things.

police are only minutes away;;;yea depends what coffee shop they are at...

Even if the fence was inside the property lines, what he did still would not fall under the castle doctrine as there was no immediate threat. Having just watched the video and read the news story how can the guy possibly claim to feel threatened? I say this because, one no call was made to 911 by either himself or his wife (who could have easily called while he went to investigate). Then, even worse, it's stated that he 'chased them around the fence' after firing the warning shot. If he had felt there was any threat at all to himself, then why would he chase a group of men (yes, it did say he saw more than one)???? Granted under the Castle doctrine you do not have an obligation to retreat and can stand your ground, but it does not give you the right to chase a criminal that is leaving.

That said I don't think the issue here is wether the guy had a right to defend himself if needed, I think it's pretty clear he did. The issue is that he showed bad judgment by firing a shot unecessarily and got in trouble for doing so. Again, I don't think theb guy deserved to be locked up or for his gun to be taken, but he does deserve to, 'have his hand slapped' for his actions so he thinks a little more next time before he over reacts to a stressful situation. If he can't do that then he has no need ((((notice I didn't say 'right' as that is also not an issue in this case))) to be carrying a weapon in the first place if he doesn't know what he's doing with it.

Wayne I ony pointed out the gate placement issue because a lot of folks were thinking something like a farm gate on a property line, not as an outside access to a fenced in back yard.

I'm very much in agreement that the guy made a bad decision.

Rick

Wrong in many ways yes but the guy did make a few mistakes. #1 he told the cops to much info. #2 he didn't wait till the thefts where on his side of the fence and then when they came at him he should have shoot them dead because dead man tells no tails. Now days it is sad to say but the laws are made to protect the criminals not the victims

Sounds like he would have been better off if he would have claimed that he missed the perp.

I agree on the surface, however, you really need to think it through.

First let me say I'm an NRA member, and VERY pro gun rights.

BUT - we are a society of people, and you DO need some laws in place to keep people safe.

You have to draw lines in the sand, and those lines have to err well on the side where people don't die needlessly.

The first rule in defending yourself with a gun is that - it's a gun. It's not a noise maker to scare people. If you have it out in a situation like that, you've got deadly force at your control.

Firing that gun is a use of deadly force - end of story - whether you THINK it's not going to end in death or not.

Same reason you can't shoot somebody you hate in the foot and claim it's just simple assault and not attempted murder.

There are no nuances to the use of deadly force -you either use it, or you don't. You don't get to play with it and scare people with it.

A warning shot is an attempt to kill that failed.

And you better be VERY reay to justify that attempt.

And you better remember that you don't get to play judge and jury with a gun and dole out a death sentence because you think somebody wants to steal your tools.

I get 1000% why that's infuriating, but there's also a chance that "thief" was some old timer with alzheimers who's nothing but very confused and lost and just trying to get home. Unlikely - but it DOES happen.

Owning a gun requires a high level of responsibility - whether the law dictates that or not - you have an obligation to treat a gun with the respect it deserves.

In my mind, that guy should have known better than fire a "warning" shot.

And that's not even getting into the dangers of a warning shot - that COULD kill/hurt an innocent bystander.

As much as I advocate firearm ownership, I have to side with the cops on this one. When you fire a warning shot, the slug goes somewhere, could ricochet and hit someone innocent. Improbable, but possible.

What I thought was dumb was within the last year here a Deputy Sheriff made a routine traffic stop on a farmer in his pickup. Somehow, the Deputy noticed a sheathed hunting knife in the door pocket of the pickup. Said Deputy actually cited the farmer for carrying a concealed weapon, booked him, and jailed him.

Now, this is a farming community. If you checked all of the farm pickups in the county, probably half would have a hunting knife stashed somewhere, mine included. Funny part is, the farmer could have had a .45 automatic laying on the seat in plain sight and would have been perfectly legal.

I never heard another word about it, and I know most of the deputies in the county. I'm assuming sanity prevailed somewhere along the way.

What do we know for certain?

We know he discharged his gun inside the city limits on a Saturday night.

We know his neighbor called the cops and they responded (apparently fairly quickly) to the neighbor's call.

We know the cops arrested him and threw him in jail for a day and a half.

Is it just maybe possible that he got a bit mouthy to the cops and they decided to let him chill out a bit? Or that maybe his story was a bit thin?

I've been telling anyone who will listen for years now, we don't "own" anything, we rent it from the government.

When they give me the confused look, I explain, miss a couple years of your property taxes and you'll soon find out about who owns the land.

My wife has a similar weapon for protection. The only thing she would have done different from this guy is that her warning shot would've been through the fence.

(quoted from post at 09:18:53 05/31/12)
There is nothing reckless about a warning shot, police do it.

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:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


You sure you want to stand by that statement??

Concealed carry instructors always teach "do NOT fire warning shots". If the threat is immediate, make the shot count.
A deputy once told me that if I ever found it necessary to shoot someone, make sure not to shoot him in the back, make sure he is inside your house, and make sure he is dead. Now the castle doctrine laws in some states allow your defense anywhere on your property.

A woman in Florida recently was sentenced to 20 years for firing a warning shot at an attacking husband. I have no idea how anyone came up with a charge of aggravated assault to charge her with, but that is apparently what she was sentenced for. She would have been much better off if she had shot the abusive husband and claimed self defense. I hope she can get this sentence thrown out on appeal.

Myron

Lesson learned...have a toy gun around that looks like a .45 at quick glance especially in the dark, then blast the guy a few times to make sure he's done, then wipe down the toy gun, put it in his hands, take both of his hands and touch the toy a few times to make it look good.

"Gosh officers, was awakened by a ruckus, grabbed my gun thinking it was a cougar, went outside and he pointed his gun at me at the same time I was pointing in his direction because thats where the noise was coming from, saw him moving his gun in my direction, and instinctively fired two or three dozen times, reloading four or five times".

Ok, don't shoot a few dozen times, and don't reload. Emptying the gun once can be explained away by pointing out you got scared and your finger got even more scared and wouldn't stop.

Mark