Trees cut across property line by neighbors logger

I am sure some of you have had this experience before. While walking the woods today in back of my fields I notice the neighbors woods was logged and upon closer look notice spray paint on the property line trees.It looks like within the past two weeks. I notice a tree cut way over the line on mine, fell into their side and log removed. The real old property line fence clearly run over and tops fell onto my side as well as skidder tracks over my side. The property line trees werent sprayed or marked in a clear straight line either. This obviously was carelessness by the logger or just thievery. I will be expecting compensation on this, so what are your thoughts? I am thinking of just going to the logger with pictures and threatening small claims unless he settles. I read michigan law is up to 3 times the value of the tree in compensation.

Just plain theft. My cousin just sold 80% of the mature trees out of her section of woods. My sister (owning the adjacent property) hand marked the property line, and made sure there were no issues. The cutter was wasteful and cleared no slash, made radical ruts and literally ruined the woods for the next 30 years.
Take pictures. Paint the real line with GPS, and a surveyor if needed.
Do not let it go. Jim

Any "neighbor" with an ounce of common decency would have notified you before starting to cut. The law may have something go say about that too. Dang right I would expect compensation. Problem is though, you may end up having to survey the property line just to prove where it is.
A few years ago my sister and BIL had some property in eastern NC, about a hundred miles from where they live, and someone cut a logging road across it. Claimed they didn't know that it was their land. They never told me how much, but they were well compensated.

like Jan says- theft. Prolly figured one very high value tree (you can"t prove it had any special value) wouldn"t be worth a lawsuit.

I agree that you need to get compensated.
Threaten to sue if you are not paid.
I have heard that logging companies are A-holes, they dont give a rip about anybody....except themselves.
You might need to get a lawyer.
Go to your neighbor and get the logging companies phone/address/place of business and start there.
I would never allow a logging company on my land.....My forest would be destroyed.

The logger will probably try to put the blame on your neighbor. So if you haven't already done so explain the situation to your neighbor; this is something his homeowner's insurance should cover. If you don't like your neighbor's response, file a police report. Insurance companies and small claims court will expect a police report, even though the police are unlikely to follow up with criminal charges. My guess is that your neighbor and the logger will pay up at that point; if they don't, take them to small claims court.

I sold a tract of timber last year and the timber cutter did the same thing. The owner of the logging company was reasonable and fired the timber cutter, fixed the fence and paid my neighbor 3x the log value. I was still unhappy because they were supposed to stay 75' from the property line but at least it was settled amoung adults and kept the lawyers out of it.

It's not just Michigan law, that applies here in Virginia. It's 3 times thebased on the size of the stump. In other words if the stump is only 3 inches above ground and is X across then the law assumes the tree was that size all the way up. If there are several trees its going to add up.
I would definitly take pictures then measure all the trees and calculate the value and present the bill.
You might need a little more then your word, like a lumber broker or a lawyer experienced in lumbering law.

I'd get on it right away. You have lots of good advice here, pictures, GPS property line, etc. Have someone go with you to take the pics as a witness. Talk to the neighbor first, but be agressive with the logger. I hope I don't offend anyone, but if you start with the idea that the logger is a crook you will get further. Get value estimates in writing from a professional forester. Good friend of mine didn't find the damage on his property for some months, case is still in court 3 years later.

Here in NH it is 3X as well. The law takes a very dim view of cutting across property lines. I expect it is because the property owner is so unlikely to notice so when a logger is caught they try to jump right on him if he doesn't pay up readily.

In Va. we have a State Forester . One would call his office and he will come look at the problem and would get the problem solved .

You are after the wrong person. Go to the neighbor porperty owner. He is responsible for anyghing the logger did on your property. Collect your damaages from the property owner, and let him go after the logger. Tom

I had a neighbor clear a pasture on one side of my property and they ran a bulldozer more than 20' on my land pushing down trees. To keep them from doing it again I moved several junk trucks just inside the property line. I know 20'isn't much but I only have 10 acres. Funny within a few weeks he was at my front door wanting me to move the trucks. He was tired of looking at them. I told him if he hadn't cleared an easement for me I couldn't have gotten them there.

Even before becoming an attorney, I like everyone else knew its not legal for a person to trespass on your property and take what doesnt belong to them, Trees, tools, etc etc.

You need to gather up good evidence like pictures (boundary, trees cut, other damage),,,,,,, legal description,,,,,,,,,dates,,,,,,,,,fence lines,,,,,,,,,any surveys etc etc to establish trees were cut and removed from YOUR property without any agreement or compensation..

The person who removed the trees is liable to you and its no defense if the neigbbor told him to do it or if he was careless or negligent HE TOOK YOUR PROPERTY WITHOUT PERMISSION OR COMPENSATION PERIOD regardless if he was negligent in knowing on whose property he was working.

You shouldnt dilly dally or hum haw around lol serve the logger with notice and demand and in many jurisdictions (subject to statutory requirements) youre entitled to treble damages and if the logger refuses then file an action in Court ASAP.

NOTE I advise you consult a competent qualified trained local professional attorney for advise versus relying on lay or even professional opinions posted here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T Country Lawyer

A private individual cannot accurately layout out a property line with a commercial GPS device (ie. - one purchased at Walmart, Bass Pro, Cabeleas, etc.) They are not accurate enough to local a legal boundry. It will not stand up in court. The feds require a certain amount of error (which I believe is somewhere in the +/- 3 foot range) to be built into those units so John Doe cannot go out and perform his own survey.

I have a degree in civil engineering and took 2 years of survey and the final semester was GPS survey. They explained all the above to us in school. Try it if you want, but you may have a countersuit on your hands.

I had that happen to me several years ago. We had a serious ice storm, and I wanted to get up to my property and start salvaging the damaged trees. I knew that the neighboring property was being logged, so I asked the consulting forester on the job if I could use the road one time to get to the top of the mountain to access my own property. Then I would be able to open my road by plowing snow downhill, instead of fighting my way uphill through the snow and downed timber.

When I got near the top I couldn't find the property line, even though I was pretty sure I knew where it was. I eventually found the line lower down, and realized that the logger had gone over the line in several places, and cut quite a few of my trees.

I called the forester, and the next day we hiked up the property line to see what had happened. He had touched up the paint marks on the line, so that the logger could find it easily. "And right here is where i ran out of paint." Sure enough, no more bright spots, and up over the next rise, there were trees cut on both sides of the line.

"Well I guess we have to write you a check." State law specifies three times the estimated value of the standing timber. I settled quite happily for the mill price of the estimated amount, because I would have been cutting the trees anyway, so I got my money without any work or expense.

Considering the circumstances, I was quite willing to give the logger the benefit of the doubt, and I certainly was not hurt by the event.

If they had gone over a well marked line and cut good healthy undamaged trees, or even in this case had given me any attitude about it, I would have been much more upset, and tried for greater compensation.

First - if you want to press charges the burden of proof is on you. You'd have to prove where the verified property line is and who did the cutting. Fence lines (wire and/or stone) even from the 1800s mean little. In fact, fence lines are often installed several feet off the line so they can be maintained by the user with going on the neighbor's property.
And if you have a survey? It's still not proof of anything but might help in court. You can have three surveys on the same land with three different sets of boundary lines. A survey is only a professional opinion. Now if you have a recent subdivision with clearly marked corners, it's more clear.

Where I live, I've caught loggers stealing logs three times over the past 30 years. The last time - most of the logs were cut off my neighbor's 120 acres. I watch the place for him and caught the logger red-handed, in the act. I had the State Police come and make a report. After that? My neighbor spent $2000 on a new survey and it took two years to finish in court. He had to drive 300 miles to attend each court proceeding. When all done - my neighbor got back $500. He spent thousands in the process. The logger? He went to jail for 6 months but only because it was the 6th time he'd been arrested and convicted of theft and trespass AND he also was in possession of cocaine when he was arrested.

In regard to who is responsible if convicted? If it is proved the logger cut the trees he is responsible. If it can be proved that the person that hired the logger knew and agreed with the theft - he/she is also responsible. That is near impossible to prove.

Here in NY there's been a lot of talk of making sentences for tree theft more harsh. Rigth now, it's basically a slap on the wrist. Often the only compensation is actual log value- not tree value or property damage. Suppose you are 40 years old and buy some land because you enjoy mature trees. Then some logger steals them. That's it for your lifetime. You won't live long enough to have them again.

A few years back, the town highway department stole around twenty 150 year-old hard maples from me. They later offered me a truck-load of firewood as compensation - or $50 per tree. I contacted a local landscaper that has a huge tree transplanter/spade/truck. He told me he charges $600 to plant one 20 foot maple tree.

I wish you luck. You will need it. Around here, the way the law is written... they can basically go in and steal from you and if they're caught.... not have to pay you much more than the value of the stumpage.
What he did is more about following 'the line of the trees' rather than carelessness...

If you want to do something about it, go after the logger, the landowner AND the mill where the wood was sold. Around here the mills got to the point where they required the PID number of the property and location before they would accept the wood and would pay the landowner directly if they wished. I'd think if you raised hell with the buyer tho... that might help. $hit has a nasty habit of flowing downhill and most of those guys are never far from drowning anyway.

Rod

This doesn"t surprise me at all. James" dad allowed some loggers on the farm. They dropped trees on fences, damaged fences to make it easier for them to crawl through, damaged water control terraces, etc. Some trees they dropped and just left on the ground. They don"t care about the property owner or anyone else. It took us 3 yrs to clean up their mess.

Its unlikely this is the first time this logger has done this.

If it were me, I would do everything I could to make sure this cost the logger enough $$$ that they would think twice about doing it again.

Loggers have built a nice rep for themselves, hard to find an honest outfit, that does some bare minimum clean up, same story everywhere you go.

My father let em in here, needed the cash for taxes, rape the land so you can keep it is the philosophy. They thinned 12 acres, mature maple, veneer grade logs. Same thing, made a nice mess, damaged other standing trees, that have a ways to go for maturity and went over the line, I caught em. They wanted to go even further, seems once they get into a place, its a perfect opportunity to steal. I don't care if anyone is insulted as per my comments, its rare to see these outfits do a reasonable job, to harvest and bare minimum clean up, I'm not talking road building or spending days after the logs are out either. I'm very effective on a dozer, I know what it takes to clean up, not much. Anytime you have something logged, you have to be there, if an adjacent landowner has it done, be there, woods need to be inventoried and board footage calculated before 1 tree is dropped, mark those to be cut and those to be left or at least mark those to be cut. Given what you are dealing with an owner has to be proactive right up front or you will likely get the above and then some. In addition to them eyballing others timber.

PS, I had someone steal a tall 3'-0" black cherry out of those woods prior to them showing up, so many people are dishonest, now they wonder why its posted, patrolled and what have you. Nice chunk of change they stole, will come back to em in the end anyway so, if you don't get compensation, they can live with being a thief.

Another good reason to get your fence moved correctly on to Your property line. Before it is too late.

I had the same thing with my neighbor. They needed to cross my property to get to their back lot. I took down a few feet of fences and marked a place for the road. The Property owner was giving me the tops of his trees for fire wood as compensation. Where they crossed there was very little in the way of trees so nothing lost there. On the last day the logger was cutting 7 very large Black Walnut trees magically disappeared off my lane. One over 200' from the road I opened up. You could see where the logs were dragged using a winch of something. My Neighbor said He know nothing about it and that it was the lumber co's problem. Going after the lumber co and now the next door neighbor will not let me get the rest of my tree tops since I filed aginst the logger. I'm never letting any one on my prop again. One lumber buyer told me from the looks of the stump sizes etc that the mill price would have been about 5K.

Good Luck with your problem.

Call a county/state forester have him come take a look. He will be will versed in how to handle this.

I don't know what you should do, but do something! Just reading your story has me PO'ed.

I had to threaten to shot a logger that was supposed to be on a neighboring property a few years ago. He was on my property by 500 feet across a five strand bard fence.

My land was logged by my Grand Dad. HE did it himself with a big team of horses. He logged a lot of the farms around. I helped him do it. I will have to admit his team made it much easier. You could walk that team to where you wanted the logs one time. After that you could just hook them up and tell them to go and they would drag that log right next to the last one they took. Unhook them and they would go back to Grand Dad by themselves. I never say them get tangled up or anything else.

This guy was trying to get a mature walnut tree. He was really out of line and said he was going to kick my old butt. When I put my 45 in his nose he really quited down in a hurry. LOL I held him until the Sheriff got there. The logger got a year in the county jail. I had turned a pocket recorder on before I confronted him. So he got charged with trespassing and threatening me with bodily harm. It turns out he had stolen trees four times before and was on probation. He lost all of his equipment while he was in the lockup. The neighbor was actually lucky that the logger got locked up. The logger had not been paid yet on the logs he had hauled/cut. The neighbor was able to get his money and the lumber buyer paid the logger direct. The logger had skipped payment on a bunch of other people.

So I would go after the logger, the neighbor, and the lumber buyer. I have seen the lumber buyer get charged with receiving stolen property. You need a good prosecuting attorney but it can be done.

The only way I would sell any lumber would be with me there to watch every bit of work being done. Then the logs would be laid out right on MY property. The log buyer would look at them there and write ME a check for my share BEFORE the first log left the place. If you let them be loaded and taken you will get screwed. Logs will get missed and not counted. The trick pulled a lot around here is the tree makes three logs but the owner only sees the sheet for two logs. Truthfully the majority of loggers around here are just crooks and cheats. I would just about let the trees rot as have to deal with any of them.

It is not hard to log trees. Most of us on here have tractors and chains saws. You just need to find a good log buyer and see what is the most valuable. Then what lengths to cut to bring the best money. Most log buyers will pick up the logs right on your farm. They just have to be drug up close to a road or good access.

The fence line in my post was at our place in Dallas, not the farm.

That's for sure ! Those darn things can't even get you to the right address yet alone a property line.

I know where many of you are coming from, and I understand that there are bad apples in every profession. I''m still a little hurt that people are branding all loggers the same. I'm second-in-command of a small logging company, that works exclusively on privately owned land. The mess is a byproduct of the work, it happens to us too, but we work closely with landowners to establish boundaries, leave as much small standing trees as we can for regrowth, , and try to do as little as possible to disturb the land.

Laws differ from place to place, but here is what I would recommend. Go to your neighbor first, find out who marked the boundary, and if he walked out with the logger to explain things. Then, contact the logger. Find out if they are willing to work with you to solve the problem. If the logger backpedals or tries to weasel out of paying, go to the mill he ships to. The mill can put pressure on from their side, and most mills keep track of complaints against the loggers they buy from. I know of a couple loggers up here who were blacklisted by the mills and forced out of business, due to carelessness and shady business practices.

Good luck, I hope things work out in your favor.

Lyndon

I bet you are not happy with the comments made here.

I know of property owner that had 20 acres logged. The mess was terrible, it basically was not worth the money he was given for the trees the logger took and paid for.
I will never allow a logger on my land, aint happening.
I think that if you asked a person (anyone) who was good with a chainsaw to remove 1 tree in the middle of a forest and NOT to kill/wreck/destroy any other trees it would be almost impossible.

It seems that honest, good loggers are few and far between.

It is very unfortunate that you appear to be vastly outnumbered by the scalawags that have given loggers a bad name.

I"m quite sure there are plenty of bad apples in every profession, not just loggers.

I"ll bet the unscrupulous loggers mentioned in some of these posts, who were driven out of business, went on to another business and are just as unscrupulous there as they were as loggers.

Its not the business, its the people. Perhaps because of the "unsupervised" nature of logging, it lends itself to allowing unscrupulous people to abound.

You know, I'm not a big fan of the negative sides of things, and I'd much rather discuss or praise a contractor, individual worker or what have you for a job well done and appreciate conscious people for what they do, people know right from wrong, but it just seems people in this line of work have another ideology, that precedes the means and methods executed in the field, leading to the reputation most if not all of them are perceived to have. Personally, I think that is sad, because people know better than to be sloppy, steal, work in a reckless manner etc.

On the logging side of it, I can understand tight margins, extreme terrain, specialized equipment, the high risk inherent danger of doing this kind of work, but that is no excuse for a lot of the problems caused when they perform their work, much of it can be eliminated. Theft and trespassing, is just the pinnacle of the bad reputation underneath, which also applies to much of the contracting world aside from logging.

An owner needs to pin this down before allowing work to be performed, so it may increase the loggers price, and take a bit from your share, I'd much rather sign an agreement, clearly stating that all work will be supervised or inspected, and agree that some kind of restoration is done where possible, do not damage trunks of other trees, do not steal or go off the property, and duly compensate if necessary. The conditions vary, yes a tree may not fall where intended, perhaps causing some damage, nothing is perfect, but wrecked fences, utter negligence, and similar ? All things can be minimized, and yes unpredictable things will occur just the same.

There are some loggers that will do a much better job, and with all the mature trees in the area, there have been more harvests of timber locally. I have seen one or two outfits that do nice work, stacking tops and locating the piles strategically to not make more work, yet leaving the site cleaner and uniformly groomed to an acceptable level. No waste of logs, firewood logs brought to a header or central area where a person can process it. Maybe you pay more for that, it is equipment time, but while they are in there, mobilized on the site, that is the time, they have the right equipment, its money well spent if there is additional cost, and better to have that agreed upon up front then to wait til they are off site, leaving you to complain, like we do here on YT LOL !!!!!

At a friends 85 acre farm, the father had their pine forest logged, what a rotten mess and the shear amount of waste, I mean piles of logs, lots of hardwood, mill logs that were acceptable for lumber, they made shavings from the pine for horse bedding, roads, well its wet, swampy in there and they have been rutted for years, but the real mess was wasted wood. My friend has been in there with a JD2020, 3 pt boom salvaging the hardwood for firewood, the pine has already punked out. The ironic thing is that I see smaller mills that will saw the logs into lumber, then leave it outside stickered, but the waste, loss etc. follows the wood right to the mill and the stacks sit there for years and years, til its no good, so why harvest, spend all the money to let that happen, (photo below of a yard like that with my trusty ole F600 next to a weathered stack) I firmly believe the waste in that industry is beyond excess from what I see. Most mills move materials, but some keep stocks of logs they never get to saw. I can't claim to be well experienced or knowledgeable in that industry but it sure seems a lot is left to be desired.

In my opinion logging and felling large trees is very dangerous. I know of seasoned farmers who are not with us anymore because they were cutting trees alone. Lots of things enter into felling a tree surrounded by other mature trees in a forest. There can be "widowmakers" in the top of the tree you don't notice till they come crashing down on you from vibration or movement.The average landowner should should be very vigilant and safety conscious before ever attempting to fell large mature trees. One should retain the service of a consultant forester or state forester to advise you in any timber sale of size. They will have a list of a few reputable loggers that they have dealt with in the past. Don't think just anyone can log a woods nor should they attempt to.

As a forester here is my professional advice worth exactly what you paid for it.

Find a local forester that is experienced in timber trespass. He will come out and measure the stump and surrounding trees to estimate what the missing trees size and quality. Then he will guide you in how to proceed with the filing of paperwork with the courts.

If you can prove that the trespass was intentional then you can go after the logger/landowner for 3x the trees value. If you can't prove that it was intentional then you can still try to get 2x the value.

I've done this service many times for clients and with just one tree the judgement may not be enough to cover the cost of the forester and court fees. But it is worth a shot.

As far as loggers being bad there are plenty of good ones out there. What amazes me is how many people sell their timber to some "joe blow" logger without any other bids, or input (IE a third party forester).

Would you sell your crops without first knowing the Quantity, Quality, and Value ahead of time? Heck NO. So why sell timber any differently.

Have a competent forester go through the woods and cruise it so that you have an idea of quantity and quality that is in the stand. Then write up a management plan so you know what is going to be cut and why. Don't let some logger just cut all the big trees that is a TERRIBLE management practice.

Another question, what if the land in question is CFR? If someone steals your darn trees do you still have to pay the county/state for the stumpage? Seems to me if they're stealing from the county Deputy Dawg might get off his doughnut eating overpaid unionized 1/2 moons and do something (yeah yeah I know better odds in the powerball). It also seems to me if the illegal harvesting of trees causes a decrease in your property value a massive civil suit may be in order and if the law minimizes the damages to less than what occurred it seem that would a restraint on your "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" and abrogation of your property rights with out "due process" plus after the trees are stolen file an appeal on your property taxes, with the stolen and damaged trees it's got to be worth less and if the law doesn't allow for recovery of losses it's worth even less. Hmmmmm seem to me if a few thousand of us hit the courts at the same time especially during in election year they might be forced into doing something. Man the tea party/ ACE needs to find some really bored lawyers and give them gainful employment with constitutional challenges to this stupidity.

Yes their are some good loggers out there but not many and the theives drive the good ones out. They have the same advantage that roofers, architects and contractors have. You don't hire them to often so the lack of repeat business doesn't effect their business viability.

(quoted from post at 11:33:51 05/23/12)Yes their are some good loggers out there but not many and the theives drive the good ones out. They have the same advantage that roofers, architects and contractors have. You don't hire them to often so the lack of repeat business doesn't effect their business viability.

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Must be a regional thing. I have a list of plenty of good loggers in Northern Wisconsin and the UP and Northern Lower of Michigan. Loggers who work with foresters have plenty of repeat business. In any given year I may have 15-50 timber sales to be sold, that means plenty of repeat business for my logging contractors. If they perform unacceptable work then they won't have the privilege to bid on another of my timber sales. This is how most foresters I know operate so it really promotes honest and reputable loggers.

All comes down to due diligence. If you put the time in to contact references, visit past jobs, talk to mills, etc you will know who is somebody honest to work with.

When my woods was logged some 25 years ago, the logger cut three trees on a neighbors property. When I found out, I approached the neighbor, who said he was suing me, so don't try to settle out of court. The state law stipulates damages of three times the stumpage value, at DBH- 'Diameter- Breast Height', or about 4 1/2 feet off the ground. The value of the logs was $90 at the time, or $270. No question or arguement. He wanted $10,000. Just to finally get through it, the logger paid him $500, after his lawyer convinced him it was a better deal than he would get in court. But this didn't happen until he spent $250 on a forester, $250 for a survey, $25 to have an estimate to get the stump "grinned out", and what the lawyer didn't tell him- his fee. Best thing to do is to get an estimate of the value, ask for 3X damages and don't get fancy. It can cost more than it's worth.

Sad to say it but you probably need to start by getting your sheriff involved. That gets people's attention faster than anything.

Have some fun, AFTER having a sheriffs deputy come out to document the illegal harvesting. Guess at the heights of the ones marked, and multiply $100 for every 10 feet, and spray that price on the tree. 60 foot tree, paint $600.00. Tree next to it, 80 foot, so $800.00. Don't forget to include your phone number, and its $100 per minute consultation fee, but you need to tell them up front.

As for the trees on your property that have already been cut down before the prices were advertised, $25 per ring, and paint that price on the stumps. 34 years/rings + bark? $875.

Put paddle locked chains on their equipment with your phone number. They will call. You will get it cleared it up.

Mark

haha good one

(quoted from post at 17:53:32 05/23/12)Put paddle locked chains on their equipment with your phone number. They will call. You will get it cleared it up.

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Or they will pull their portable torches or grinders out of the tool truck and cut the chain and get back to work. Then you will be out the trees and chains and locks. Every now and then we get some hippy environazi people who will lock up machines and it only slows the loggers down for a couple minutes, and they make out with some new chains.

X2. Chains would last all of about a minute here. The universal key would come out... snip, snip... free chain. YES. Back to work. LOL

Rod

I know how easy it is to think the worst and ASSUME that it's going to be a fight, but how about we try to work this one out like gentlemen first?

It was ONE tree. Possibly a shady operator testing the waters to see if he can get away with it. Possibly an honest mistake by a not-so-swift logger.

In either of those two cases, the operator will quickly own up to it and gladly pay you off to make it go away. Easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

If he's shady he'll then know you're watching and won't steal any more trees. If he's honest he will give his logger a tongue-lashing, and if it's a repeat offense, he'll send the logger packing.

wd45,You never said anywhere,are we talking sawmill grade or papermill grade trees?If we are talking line fence row type trees,then maybe you need to cool down and be talking to your neighbor and loger and get the boundry line cleaned up and help you both out.I'am not condoning what happened but maybe there is a silver lining to it.

I believe that there is no issue with making (to ones own satisfaction) that trees being selected are on the correct side of a property line estimated by GPS. I have Taught Both surveying and GPS use. and with a base station, the accuracy is in the centimeter range. Without base station, I drove my PU slowly down a Montana back road at 15mph for 6 miles with 5 University students in the bed of the truck. Each had a Garmon Hand held unit. When we were coming back, one kid moved from one side to the other. When plotted on an ARCView program, and fit to a USGS topo, the lines overlapped each other such that they became one line for each and were separated by the width of the stepside box. The crossover student, trace was clearly perfect. The lines all were on the correct "side" of the road, and the three point turn at the end was clean. It suits me. Jim

The GPS units may be accurate but they are only GUARANTEED to be accurate to within three METERS (not feet). You could be 10' off.

We're talking about a typical landowner trying to prove that a tree was stolen off his property here... He is not going to have a "base unit" but he might have an inexpensive handheld GPS for walking the property.