O.T. Electric car /state rebate

Who do you guys feel. State of Tennesse curently has a Tax payer funded rebate of $ 2,500.00 for any one who purchase a new Niesan Leaf electric car. Governor is all for this going green. I rezent my tax money supporting the other guys life style. Not only do they get a rebate they pay no gas tax for use of the public roads..Does any other states have crazy programs like this ?
I can afford what I drive and foot my own way but sure as h>>> hate to pay the other guys way.

sad to say but the only way to get away from "paying for the other guy" is to move aay from this country.

(quoted from post at 22:28:47 02/01/12) Who do you guys feel. State of Tennesse curently has a Tax payer funded rebate of $ 2,500.00 for any one who purchase a new Niesan Leaf electric car. Governor is all for this going green. I rezent my tax money supporting the other guys life style. Not only do they get a rebate they pay no gas tax for use of the public roads..Does any other states have crazy programs like this ?
I can afford what I drive and foot my own way but sure as h>>> hate to pay the other guys way.

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I agree. They're pushing us to own vehicles we don't want. I am not against them, per se. I just don't think they should be subsidized. Do the math on an electric vehicle and it doesn't make sense. Personally, I think a move towards hydrogen fuel cell cars is the best way to go.

I agree, why should I have to pay for someone else s new car and I can barely afford the 15 year old one I have now. Gas is only 1.50 a gal more now than three years ago.

I agree 100% Why should I have to pay for someone's car? I also hated that cash for clunkers program they had.
The electric cars aren't saving any fuel anyway. In fact it take more fuel to charge the battery than a engine would use to power the car. Pure stupidity! They just move the fuel burning to the electric plant. Dumb.
What the car makers should be building is natural gas cars. Around here they are burning off natural gas at the oil wells. Hundreds of fires you can see around here at nite. What a waste! Makes me angry!

and that Nissan Leaf is the most coyote ugly car I've ever seen. Couldn't pay me any amount of rebate to park one in my driveway.

I don't see any benefit in driving an electric car one-way leaving a sick soul no way home. Myself a farmer in a marginally rural area still farming 600 acres everything is roughly 35 miles away. That's just far enough to run a battery down. Unless or until they build an electric car or mini truck that can make 140 mile round trip I see no benefit in a vehicle what needs a lot of nursing along.
My look at it a waste of time until somebody gets one right.
It'd peeve me paying some a-hole a premium to buy foreign when we need jobs right here at home.
Fernan

The real root of the problem is people who are willing and eager to take others peoples tax money to subsidize their own lifestyles.Another form of redistribution with Government picking the winners and losers instead of the free market. Only hope of ever stopping it is an organized taxpayer backlash followed by strict constitutionally mandated term limits, like one term and out. We have allowed ourselves to be reduced to peasents lorded over by self Knighted meglomaniacs who hold the beliefs of the average citizen in absolute contempt. Every freedom loving American should spend a little time researching how far down the path to dictorial enslavement the British and the Australians have allowed themselves to be herded.

Don't the Feds (us) give a tax rebate also? Other side of the coin is it's there for anyone to take advantage of if that is the kind of car you want.

There is a fedral rebate to try to get people to try the plug in hybrid or pure electric cars.
The Chevy volt gets a $7500 rebate.

Most states now have an extra charge in the yearly licence fee for a pure electric cars to make up for the gas tax they do not pay.

It's much harder to calculate a fair fee for a plug in hybrid that can either plug in or run on gas. One plug in hybrid owner that makes only short trips may buy no gas/ pay no tax at all, while another fellow with the same plug in hybrid that makes long trips will use mostly gas and pay the tax.
They may need to find a way to meter the electricity used to charge an electric car or plug in hybrid, and tax it to make them pay their fair share of road tax.

The problem with running a car on compressed natural gas, is that they have no more range than an electric car on a fill up, 20-40 miles.

To use CNG, (compressed natural gas, in a motor veichle, you need a special high pressure tank that can stand the 5000 psi of CNG you need to pump into it to get any range at all. Add to that, the compressor you need to pump your tank full of CNG at 5000 psi, is a slow and very expensive critter.

Natural gas is great for stationary use, but still little more practical than the batteries in an electric car for long range mobil use.

Don't know where you live,but if you drive streets and roads, have street lights, have water and sewer systems, there is a good chance those things have been subsidized by tax $$ from folks that live some distance away and will never use any of those systems. Still it is done by a government that thinks it is in the best interest of the country. And it might be so ??

It is true that different states and municipalities may or may not receive or accept federal tax payer money to provide some or all of the services you have mentioned, the fact that it is a common practice does not mean that it is constitutional or just to the people whose money is being stolen and spent on projects outside the realm of the federal governments allotted powers. The framers intended the people of each state to be able to decide how they wanted to be represented and what level of government they were willing to pay for, the feds have steadily eroded that distinction over the last 100 years. The only halfway fair tax is a flat tax paid by each and every citizen, zero deductions, or better yet, abolish taxes altogether and return the structure of government to what existed in 1793.

The electric car is such a looser. Nobody but a few status seekers and hard core enviro freaks will purchase them without financial incentives.

The cost of electric car subsidies pales in comparison to the (recently discontinued) ethanol subsidies.

How dumb do they think we are. the energy has to come from some where. If not from Gasoline from Coal , Nuke or Natural gas. Goes about half the distance I go on average trip. Might be OK if you live in town and could walk to work if car broke down. I once worked with a guy that drove two city blocks to work every day. He could use a car like that.

Hey, Just think.. Enough people buy these dumb things and we'll pay for it yet again..

I'm gonna start by saying this: WHY IS GAS $3.50 (check local price)?? BECAUSE IT CAN BE! If everyone starts driving them dumb electric cars, what's the actual gas price gonna do? DROP, because no one will be using gas (or very little..)

Now, from the other side, What will our electricity companies do?? That's right, raise the price! Why? CAUSE THEY CAN!

Fact of the matter, no matter what a car will run on, they'll jack the price.. Simply because "we need it".. And if we "need" something, they can make the price as high or low as they wish, and we'll pay it.. What other choice is there??

It's not gas, but here's something that relates to my theory on the "pricing system".. The super Bowl is this weekend.. SHOW ME A BIG SCREEN TV THAT'S ON SALE for a GREAT PRICE this week.. Probably won't find one.. But next week they'll all be marked way down..

Am I right or am I right?

I could go on for days right now.. I got all fired up yesterday, and I can tell it hasn't changed yet today.

Brad

(quoted from post at 22:12:27 02/01/12)
It'd peeve me paying some a-hole a premium to buy foreign when we need jobs right here at home.
Fernan

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The plant to produce them in TN is in progress right now. It is expected to open in late 2012. I doubt they have Japanese workers planning to commute.

There was a special on the tv last night by nova on PBS. Called beyond the light switch.surprisingly accurate with less than the usual amount of green weenie bias. Probably the best lines were something to the effect" the general public has no idea what electrify is, how it"s made or how it gets here. But flip the switch and the light doesn't come on, There is h*ll to pay."

Let me see...they mine the ore for batteries in Nova Scotia, put it on a ship to China, refine the material, put it on a ship to Japan to make the batteries, then put them on a ship to the US. And they still do not know how to dispose of the bad batteries...yup...green footprint all the way!!!

Never heard anyone ever explain who got paid an ethanol subsidy - never seen a dollar budgeted for ethanol subsidy either.....

Actually fuel taxes have paid for the roads - so the people using the roads paid for them. Except for the fuel tax money that subsidizes "public transit" projects that are used by people that won't pay their fair share and people that buy electric cars.

So what is ELECTRIFY? Can you give a mechanical explanation for it?

My brother bought a new Ford pickup a few years ago. Between Ford Motor and local Ford dealer he got $8000 rebate. Tha's pretty good. The only bad side is he's paying quite a bit of gas tax at 14 mpg.

Controlled flow of electrons.

(quoted from post at 07:18:53 02/02/12) The cost of electric car subsidies pales in comparison to the (recently discontinued) ethanol subsidies.

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That doesn't make it (electric car subsidies) right just by saying "there are worse ones". People like to point out other subsidies to justify ones they take advantage of. Well, every subsidy comes with a set of bureaucrats in Washington (or your state Capitol) to administer them. The fewer, the better, IMO.

Take the Michigan film incentives. Up to 40% tax CREDIT! The film industry is whining about their elimination, but Gov. Snyder is right: they're a business, let them stand on their own 2 feet. Tax credits and subsidies are like starting fluid in a bad engine. It may fire up but won't stay running when you remove the ether.

One thing nobody that is a proponet of the lelctric cars ever mentions is when you have to drive in the dark and have your heater running and the wipers running all taking power out of those batteries is how far they will go, 1/4 or 1/6th of the range they say for in daylight and nice weather with nothing extra to use power. If that car has a perfect condition range of 100 mile how far under normal conditions for most of us will it go, 20 miles, 25 miles? And they will not give anything except perfect condition milage expextations.
And on the hybreds don't all of them have to have the engine running all the time to make the heater work?

Brad Gyde wrote: "What will our electricity companies do?? That's right, raise the price! Why? CAUSE THEY CAN! "

Yeah, except electric companies are utilities and must file a request with the State govt to raise rates. Check out the tariff book. Not as easy as George walking out to his gas pumps and cranking the price up because the oil company called that morning and told him to do it because a pump quit working at a refinery in Tulsa. Even though the gas he just raised the price on was bought last week at a lower price.

Funny that ALL the stations raise their price in lock-step. And they don't call that price-fixing? What a crock.

Tests of the leaf shows when driving in winter at 0 F, 45% of the battery charge will be used to heat the car.

The generation 3 (2010 and later) Toyota Prius heater will work untill the coolant is too cold to make heat, the coolant pump is electric, so hot coolant gets pumped to the heater without the engine running. When coolant temp gets down to 110F, the engine must start to warm the coolant.
When parked with the heater on, my Prius engine will cycle about 5 minutes on, then 10 minutes
off, until it needs another reheat. They even have a water jacket on the exhaust manifold to put as much exhaust heat as possible into the coolant for less engine run time.

I would not get too exctied about not paying the gas tax. Iowa is talking about a user fee for electric and possibly hybird/slectric cars. Still in the talk stage now but thinking is these cars use and contribute to road maintenance costs too. So they they should pay something.
It is kind of a catch 22, we want to reduce imports of oil but roads still require maintenance.

Nice try, but that really doesn't mechanically explain anything. How do those electrons flow in a permanent magnet field? You do know that what is in a magnetic field and electricity are one and the same don't you?

No, JML, I don't think the existence of more idiotic subsidies makes it acceptable to have less idiotic ones. But I do believe that our sense of outrage over a government subsidy should be proportional to the degree of wastefulness of that subsidy.

DH, are you implying that the billions of dollars in tax credits given to corporations (the "blender credit") was somehow FREE? And that those billions didn't help out those same corporations' bottom lines? No doubt the politicians who supported the blender credit would like us to believe that to be the case. But anyone capable of balancing their own checkbook knows otherwise.

Electrons have mass. A magnetic field is force without mass, explain that.

A couple of years ago I took advantage of the electric car program. I bought a electric golf cart that was road legal.(for a cart) Turned it in on our taxes, walah! . It's great on the farm and to take to event's like farm shows and tractor pulls. I think it is great you-all paid for half of my cart!

You are wrong . What is in a magnetic field is matter in motion. It has mass.

(quoted from post at 01:07:31 02/02/12) The problem with running a car on compressed natural gas, is that they have no more range than an electric car on a fill up, 20-40 miles.

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Maybe with a bus.

Most CNG tanks sets get you 8 gallon on gasoline equivalent. "GGE"


CNG makes the most sense at this point, it is cheap, clean, and available domestically in huge amounts. Problem with it is nearly all CNG cars to this point have been conversions of gasoline models. A CNG car needs to be deigned from the ground up with the needs of CNG in mind(high compression, and tank storage). The Honda Civic GX is a start, but there is a long way to go.

Force = energy. E= MC squared. You need to study the manuel. It then will become very simple and very obvious.

How can you and joe find mass in a magnetic field yet every other lab and scientist hasn't ?

#1 How can they find anything when they don"t know what they are looking for? #2 How do you measure or weigh something traveling and spinning at C??? Joe & I know because of its charactaristics & what it does & where it comes from. Like the air, we can"t see it but know it is there.

teddy/joe

If a magnetic field had mass. How could it be used to guide sub atomic matter and anti-matter in a particle accelerator?
The particles would collide and slow down if a magnetic field had mass.
Then again I have to remember this isn't about facts. Trying to explain the truth to you only feeds your your Cognitive Disorder Syndrome"

Examples

Many cognitive distortions are also logical fallacies; related links are suggested in parentheses.[3]
All-or-nothing thinking (splitting) – Conception in absolute terms, like "always", "every", "never", and "there is no alternative". (See also "false dilemma" or "false dichotomy".)

Overgeneralization – Extrapolating limited experiences and evidence to broad generalizations. (See also faulty generalization and misleading vividness.)

Magical thinking - Expectation of certain outcomes based on performance of unrelated acts or utterances. (See also wishful thinking.)

Mental filter – Inability to view positive or negative features of an experience, for example, noticing only tiny imperfection in a piece of otherwise useful clothing.

Disqualifying the positive – Discounting positive experiences for arbitrary, ad hoc reasons.

Jumping to conclusions – Reaching conclusions (usually negative) from little (if any) evidence. Two specific subtypes are also identified:

Mind reading – Sense of access to special knowledge of the intentions or thoughts of others.

Fortune telling – Inflexible expectations for how things will turn out before they happen.

Magnification and minimization – Magnifying or minimizing a memory or situation such that they no longer correspond to objective reality. This is common enough in the normal population to popularize idioms such as "make a mountain out of a molehill." In depressed clients, often the positive characteristics of other people are exaggerated and negative characteristics are understated. There is one subtype of magnification:

Catastrophizing – Inability to foresee anything other than the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or experiencing a situation as unbearable or impossible when it is just uncomfortable.

Emotional reasoning – Experiencing reality as a reflection of emotions, e.g. "I feel it, therefore it must be true."
Should statements – Patterns of thought which imply the way things "should" or "ought" to be rather than the actual situation the person is faced with, or having rigid rules which the person believes will "always apply" no matter what the circumstances are. Albert Ellis termed this "Musturbation".

Labeling and mislabeling – Limited thinking about behaviors or events due to reliance on names; related to overgeneralization. Rather than describing the specific behavior, the person assigns a label to someone or himself that implies absolute and unalterable terms. Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that is highly colored and emotionally loaded.

Personalization – Attribution of personal responsibility (or causal role or blame) for events over which a person has no control.

If you know so much, why don't you prove him wrong? He issued an open challange many years ago. To this day , no one has done so and never will. His prototypes prove what he teaches. His last machine puts out over 7000 times what is imputted. The rest comes from E=MC2. Joe is standing on the sholders of Einstien and Tesla. Why not study what he teaches and stand on his sholders & do better. Maybe his design is not the best. Maybe you could design a machine to put out 15 or 20 thousand per cent or more.

Hey wishfull dreamer. Joe has been proven wrong every time. No need to give the fool any more attention that he craves.

What? Where? When? How? and by whom??????