diesel compression -opinions?

Those that don't follow the HF or massey forums don't know that I have been rebuilding a standard 23c diesel in an MF35... for a while now. While the injector waits for another brain to look at it, I was wondering if it is timed right, since there were no timing marks. So I figured a compression test. New rings, sleeves- the kit, and the valve job was done on my bridgeport table with jeweler's rogue and a drill. All 4 hit exactly 80 pounds. This was from the glow plug holes, and now i think of it, the injectors aren't really torqued down. Is this good? bad? OK? I know modern diesels need over 100, but this thing is really old school..... thanks in advance...

i know enuff about diesel's to keep em runnin...i think the number youre looking for is closer to 300#
if it helps,front cylinder at TDC...both valves closed...look for timing marks...some had marks on flywheel and sight hole thru block...the pump has a sight window on it too.

tony I dont think you will get full compression until the mtor gets running and your rings get seated properly. Did you run a ball hone in your cylinders to get proper crosshatching before you installed the pistons? Im not sure of anything I just wrote..what the heck would I know me cant spell.

You are WAY low if you only have 80 PSI compression.I would be concerened about a gasser with that low of compression. How many times did you spin it over to get that reading? How fast was the cranking speed? How are you taking the reading? What do you have for a compression gauge?
Lots of questions I know but all relate to getting a believable reading.

If your saying that you replaced the rings and sleeves and got 80 psi on a cylinder compression test, I think there is something wrong. I don"t know what your compression pressure should be. Most diesels have compression pressures of 350-400psi or more. Your valve timing must be off, your valves are burned or not seated to give numbers that low or there is some other cylinder leakage somewhere. Those compression readings aren"t even respectable for a typical gas engine in tractors of that era!

Do you have any info with regards to the valve timing? Surely the shop manual will have something! John(UK) on the Ferguson Forum might have some info he could send you on that engine. have you tried him?

I've rebuilt Perkins', CAT's, Cummin's, Murphies, IH's, Detroit's, Yanmar's, B/S, Honda's,Kohler's, Chevys' Fords, etc, etc and have NEVER seen an engine without timing marks. Have you ever turned any kind/brand of engine over when tearing it down and tried to line the timing marks up after it had been running? All I can say is that there are so manny different 'combinations' that you'd be one of the luckiest guys on the planet if you were able to get the timing right without using any kind of timing mark. Heck even if you were lucky enough to get the valve timing right, getting the injector pump timing right also would be nothin short of a miracle to say the least.

I know my missive on timing doesn't answer your question about the compression, but I think it addresses a big part your problem. That said even gasoline engine in good shape typically well over 100 psi so your way, way low. Most diesels run closer to 325 to 450. Wether they are older engines, or newer ones, the concept of compression ignition doesn't change, and it takes that much compression to generate the heat needed to ignite the air/fuel mix. Granted you've got a new engine and the rings won't be seated yet but that's no reason you shouldn't have compression at least somewhere close to those numbers. In fact I just did a search and found this link. According to what this says your compression should be in the neighborhood of 380 as it sits. From there all I can say is good luck.
Compression

"the valve job was done on my bridgeport table with jeweler's rogue and a drill."

Just GUESSING, but you MIGHT want to consider having someone with the proper tools re-do the valvejob!

There are timing marks somewhere.I dont know that particular engine,but I know it will have a timing mark.Also it needs way more compression than 80 pounds like others said.It might help if you described this valve job a little better.Did you check and see if they were seated?You can pour some diesel in the chambers and see if it leaks through the valve.How did you adjust them if you didnt find any timing marks?If you did something like set the Exhaust to the intake value and the intake to the exhaust value it might not run.They can be off a little,but not a lot.So if you adjusted them on the wrong place on the cam,some of them might not be seating when the piston comes up.
There are lots of other things it could be too.Did you check the ring end gap?Did you clean out the head bolt holes before you put the head bolts in? Did you clean the threads on the head bolts?If you didnt do that,some of your head bolts might not be down far enough to properly torque the head down.Even if you left a little gasket on the block or head surface somewhere it could mess up a diesels compression.Ive seen that before.If you didnt have it in the right place when you adjusted the valves,if you did adjust them,then it could be that your valves arent closing all the way because they arent adjusted right.Im sure there are more things that could be wrong,just cant think of them now.One more thing was whenever I ground valves,I would take a small ball peen hammer and give the valves a good smack right in the middle to seat them good.You dont even need to use a hammer,you can just slam them in with your hand,but a hammer makes it easy.Or you could lap them I suppose.To lap them you have grinding compound and a suction cup tipped stick that you use to lap them.I have not seen anybody do valves with jewelers rouge and a drill.Whatever you use you have to get all of it out once you get done.

Do you trust your compression gauge??

Have another to check it against??

Uniform low compression really sounds like a guage error. You may be correct about the injectors not torqued down, but that should have made a leak you could hear.

Did you sink the valves too far into the head? I just finished a MF 175 last fall and remember there is a minimum projection required for the valves. I wouldn't think that you could reduce the compression that much, though, more like just enough so that the engine wouldn't start well.

The Perkins Diesel used in the ALLIS 160 DID NOT have timing marks. You set the valve clearance on one valve, I forget which one. wide. Then you turned the engine until this clearance was zero. You then installed the pump.
I thought this was kind of dumb but this was the way it was. They didn't put timing marks on the front pulley because it was a spline mount not a key way mount.

Kent

I know Jerry, but on this forum, you can get a response in minutes rather than days. Been posted there for days. Did you see the pics I put on HF and MF forums a while ago? with the chain area, wasn't just Standard, my cousin tore into a v12 Jag and it didn't have timing marks. They way it is done there. I can't get a better reading, it don't run obviously, or I wouldn't ever worry about numbers, but for an old fashioned affair like this, I can't emagine 400 pounds, that's like a rifle blast at the muzzle, not out of one of these, no way. Everyone who warned me not to start the project... which is why I am working alone?!?!? They told me it is slow churning, low compression, that's why they need glow plugs even on a hot day. I feel like a museum restoring a one of a kind. Never one of these again, never.

Bob, the head was on the floor of a machine shop where I did business before and they treated me well. this time the head was there in the crud for 8 months, so lately I took it home, if it isn't going to run, all the pieces won't run at my house, not scattered all over and ignored by 'professionals'. Just can't dig up info on this engine that is ever good news. Personally, gauge accurate or not, there is enough compression to impress me, once the injector pump is sorted out, I bet it will run fine. Waiting on more 'professionals' to help with the pump, I just don't want to make it worse by tearing into it like a kid with grandpa's watch.
If this was a Perkins or cummins, I know I would be surrounded by helpers, no one wants to get near this thing, and I am at the end of the line here.....

[As far as I can remember there is a hole in the flywheel housing L.H side pointing rearwards, You can insert a pin in there and slowly turn over the engine till that pin slips in a hole in the front side of the flywheel.
This must be the timing mark, but can be either cyl 1 or cyl 4 so turn engine till rockers of cyl 4 are tight . With80 psi compression the engine will never start or run.

Tony, I surfed the 'net a bit and it APPEARS that engine has a 20:1 compression ratio, so you SHOULD be seeing 300 pounds+ compression.

It is apparently timed by inserting a 1/4 dowel (drill bit) into a timing hole.

http://www.ehow.com/list_7725469_massey-ferguson-35-torque-specifications.html

http://www.ytmag.com/ferg/messages/5536.html

old school, new school... no damm way a diesel engine will run on 80 or 100 lbs. as mentioned you need up around 400psi. so that the incoming air will get hot enough to explode the diesel.
timing marks also, dont care what engine you have still need to time it. that old, old school valve job with a drill is obsolete and should be done with a valve grinder to get the proper seat angles and widths seats and guides need to be checked for wear also. springs need to be checked for tension. installed height checked. thats why when somebody tells me the motor was overhauled i get very suspisious and ask lots of questions. when checking comp. was the engine spun over with the batt? dont know if engine is in tractor or on bench?

Tony,
The diesel engine requires the high temperatures generated by the high compression pressures to ignite the fuel. There is no way that 80 psi is going to do that, glow plug or not. That"s not even a good compression pressure for a 6:1 compresssion ratio gas engine!
When the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke, are both the valves closed at TDC?

I went back and looked at your pictures.Did you have the chain off the front of the engine?Is the front cover still off of the engine?I also saw your pictures of your valve job.That picture didnt look very encouraging.The work you have done looks good and clean,but how do you know you have those pitted seats done right?I wish you had taken more pictures of that.I know your frustration if they did you like you say.Now to leave your head lying around for months is no way to treat a customer,or they didnt want to work on it to start with.
Anyway,they are saying there is some place where you stick a drill bit in the flywheel to time it.Do you know where that is?
I am impressed that you would take on a basket case like that.Thats hard to do,I know from experience.However wouldnt you need a manual?I know I would.I guess maybe after consuming the appropriate amount of whatever beer you are drinking and then maybe you have a vision of how this all works?Is that how you were doing it?Or maybe youve worked on these before so much that you figured you could do it by beer alone?Maybe you cant find a manual or they want a fortune for one?
Anyway,what did the ring end gaps check at?Did you test the valves after you did your"valve job"on them by pouring diesel or something in the chamber to see if they leaked?Now that you know about the dowel pin to time it,do you know where the hole is that you use for that?
It is good that you asked about the compression.Its obviously way too low.So now you have to see if you can figure out why that is.Also in your spare time maybe you should look for a better machine shop to do a real valve job unless you are absolutly sure they are seating.I havent seen very many people with xray eyes that could look inside of an engine and see what was wrong,and I havent seen anybody who could drink enough beer to where they could figure out how to time a diesel engine without a timing mark of any kind.It might be possible to set the valves without a timing mark,but you wont get the pump on there without some way of timing it.Now that you know what to do,see if your valves are set right.Then recheck your compression,if you dont see way more then ask again and if I see your question Ill try and think of more things that can be wrong.Also,if you ask about something,its always a good idea to say just what it is that you are working on,and any more info you have.You will get a better answer that way.I still dont know much about your engine,but Im learning more each time I look at this post!

yes, that times the injector pump gear to the camshaft, timing the crank to the cam is a game with #4 valve clearance, so's you have to have the head on and torqued, etc etc. I would like to put the timing chain cover back on now- IF all is timed correctly, which is still up in the air. If this was a continental gas, the tractor would have been running 2 weeks ago, and just as fuel efficent.

The beer is a way to encourage the brain to not look at the cutting torch. As far as xray vision, shop did do a magnaflux inspection, turned the crank.that was it for the year. Front cover is still off, and i'd like to put it on, only after I know its timed right. The rings came with the sleeves in the kit here, I wasn't going to second guess supposedly matched parts. I have an I&T manual, John in UK sent me some pages from whay looks like a dealer service manual. Yes, there is a hole in the block, lines up with a hole in the flywheel, that wasn't quick, but happened. That doesn't time camshaft, it times the injector pump to the cam. The valves are the valves, water tight- if I wait another year to do this, I can find 2 or 3 other running 35's by then, so junk this then, now or later? There are no timing marks, the manual says as much. You put keyways, valve lifters, and other - pieces, in certain positions... as a put in an earlier thread, my cousin stripped out an entire jag v12 by being off a roller link or two. No marks on those either, and this was a 1980's. I have seen explosions of 100 pounds. how this thing could develop 400 is wild. This is like antique cars, you will find 1000's of knowledgeble people dealing with a 1911 model T Ford, if you need help with a 1911 Briscoe.... it becomes a big empty planet....

I know what you are saying about the oddball stuff nobody knows about,but then that makes you drink a lot more beer!So if you didnt have the chain off,and if you rotate the engine until both valves on number one rockers are loose,with piston all the way up,mark a spot on the harmonic balancer and somewhere thats exactly lined up to it on the front of the block there.Also while doing this,see if the dowel rod works.It will be a big plus if it does.Then adjust the valves like it says.As you do a valve turn the crank completely around 2 times,and line up the mark you made, and do the next valves in the firing order if the rockers are loose.Then once you get the valves set,try your compression test again.
I dont care where you get your parts from,especially nowdays,you have to check the ring end gaps.Its easy to do.First you find out what they are supposed to be,and then you put a ring in the sleeve,then you get it square by putting a piston in part way and getting it equal all the way around,then check with a feeler gauge and see what you have.Its just what you do when you build an engine,any engine.There have been cases where they put the wrong rings in an overhaul kit and the only way you know for sure is to check your end gaps.
I seem to get the idea that you are right frustrated and maybe feeling like junking it.Well dont do that!I would never let any machine beat me.None of the mechanics I know would either.You just stay after it,whatever it takes,until it runs and pulls itsself out of your shop!I know you can do it.Ive seen your work and it looks good.
Now if when you have the valves adjusted and if you turn it until the number one rockers are loose,and if the dowel goes into the hole,and you get the pump on,and you have high enough compression,and it pumps fuel,it should run.Now as far as an old diesel having low compression and having to use glow plugs to start it,I doubt thats right.It takes compression in a diesel to even fire the fuel.So it is going to be up there,and its no joke.I read where it needs at least 350 pounds of compression,and like others told you,it needs compression to run and 350 sounds a little weak,but maybe since the rings arent seated.
Now,drink appropriate amount of beer,slap your face a few times,get mad,and fix this beast!Dont let that machine beat you!You make the machine do what you want,not let the machine beat you! Good luck!
Tell me if you still are having trouble after you get that far.Now you dont think that there is any foreign material like a wire or a rock or something between the head and block do you?Ive had something slip in there when putting a head on by myself and keep from getting compression on a diesel.You might want too look things over real close and see if you see anything obvious like where the compression might be going,if it is.
The bottom line is that somebody built this thing,it ran,and if they can do it,you can do it!

Hummm, the head gasket looked a bit funky now that you mentioned it. Got to consider getting that back off and maybe replaced. a Ford guy came over this evening, to tell me one expert didn't want to make a house call on a Standard, even for a cav pump, and another he knows who now works in New Hollnd corporate, told him to tell me to make sure the fuel shut off is open... oh man....I cranked it over, the ford guy thought it's fine compression, so I am getting too confused here. Don't worry about me scrappng the whole project... the back half is safe.

Well you are there and all of us are somewhere else.That Ford mechanic saying he thought it was fine compression goes back to the Xray eyes deal.You cant trust anybody really.The guy could be a pathological liar and cant tell the truth.I would have to ask him why he would think 80 pounds is enough,unless its way higher and he knows it by the sound or something.The fuel shutoff could be your problem if not pumping any fuel.I would check that.It is [probably something simple thats been overlooked and that fuel shut off could be it.People will do some crazy things.Ive seen a lot of stuff being a mechanic for 10 or 12 years.Usually when I was working on stuff,they would round off every bolt head and then bring it to the shop and expect you to fix it in a big hurry.I worked on big trucks,mostly Cummins but some Detroits and Cats and Internationals and other stuff.So I know diesels fairly well,just not the one you are working on.I have had to set the valves on one like I told you how to do it,because somebody put the engine together and didnt line up the timing marks.So when you adjusted the valves using the timing marks,it wouldnt even run.Ive seen a lot of stuff but it was back in the 1980s and early 1990s when I worked on trucks full time.So if you think there is a problem with the head gasket,it may very well be the problem.Could be worth a look.