6v to 12v conversion can damage teeth on flywhee.

Geo-TH,In · Feb 17, 2015

My Jubilee was converted to 12v before I got it. In 5 years had two starter drives go bad. Last one things sounded real bad. I ordered a 12v starter from YT, $147 shipping included. Installed it today and just like I thought one tooth on starter ring is more than half missing. Not sheared off, Chipped off.

Many will be many say they have gone for years using a 6v starter on 12v. Some even said I was making too much out of this.

I will say you are playing Russian rulet. Do you want to spend $147 on a nice sounding starter from YT, shipped in 2 days, or do you want to split the tractor and replace the starter ring?

Many will also say OHM'S LAW doesn't apply here. If you double the voltage, don't change the resistance, you will also double the current. Twice the voltage, twice the current, 4 time the power. I don't care if you don't think the 6 volt starter is producing 4 times the power. The starter drive can slam the teeth on flywheel and chip them. The pic is proof.

Do yourself a favor and buy a 12v starter. And if you recommend using a 6v starter, please warn them it's possible to chip a tooth off.

rrlund · Feb 17, 2015

The guy that used to run the starter shop here said he used to do a LOT of jobs just grinding the bevel back on to the starter drive gear after they were ground off changing to 12 volt.

bison · Feb 17, 2015

The reason the ring gear teeth gets damaged is that the starter drive gear teeth and ring gear teeth meet head on instead of meshing.
The cause of that could be insufficient bevel of the gear teeth or the one way slip clutch in the starter drive is seized or the starter solenoid is not working properly causing the starter drive to bang in and out....Or one made a mistake and accidentally hit the key when the engine was running
It has nothing to do with 6 to 12 volt(or 12v to 24v) starters as the starter drive is always fully engaged in the ring gear before the starter starts spinning.

I have 1 belarus tractor I converted from 12 to 24 volt for starting 27 years ago. I wore out 1 starter and 2 starter drives.
The ring gear has still all its teeth and was never replaced.

sammydwm · Feb 17, 2015

1 incident vs thousands of systems operating without a hitch.
I'll take my chances on the 6V starter.

Geo-TH,In · Feb 17, 2015

The starter drive that did the damage came for YT.

john in la · Feb 17, 2015

George I agree with you 100%.
You are playing Russian roulette using a 6 volt starter and a 12 volt battery.

But when you combat I have done that many times without incident from 10 people it is best sometimes to just make your point and move on.

At least you know in your heart you did your best to warn others.

Case in point.............
I see several on here talk about doing things with gasoline or diesel that I have personally witnessed having catastrophic results.
Yes it is often a 1 in a million chance.
But when you are talking loss of life 1 in a million gets real narrow.

Allan in NE · Feb 17, 2015

If the ring gear isn't banged up, torn and floppy-eared, you're not using the tractor (or any other engine) enough.

Allan

gene bender · Feb 17, 2015

To start with if they get the starter refreshed and used good cables and a battery most would start with the 6v system bigger engines i can see but small engines loke the old Fords and small I-H just dont need 12v. We used those tractors sometimes every day and they started but were kept in shape. Every spring and fall i would clean connections add distilled water ect cause we needed them to start gring feed,plow snow ect and wanted them to start they did then and will still start. Dad always said take care of the machine and it will take care of you.

Pitalplace · Feb 17, 2015

My 600 has a 6v starter and 12v system for over 20 years. No problems.

Geo-TH,In · Feb 17, 2015

John,
I really don't care what others think. I published what has happened, how I fixed it. Others can do what they want. I'm not imposing my opinions on others. I think it bad advice not telling people what can happen to teeth on flywheel when using a 6v starter on 12v. BTW, this is the second starter drive in 5 years. Last drive I got from here, YT.

I've found others on different sites on internet who have experienced the same problem with chipped teeth. So I think the problem is real.

I say a little prayer now when I hit the starter that the teeth next to the bad one can carry the load or I'll be splitting the tractor. Been there before. Last tractor took me 4 hours start to finish to split and get it back together.

This will take longer because I'll have to remove flywheel, take it to town have a new ring installed, then have the flywheel ground.

I'm happy with how the new starter works, sounds and doesn't slam the starter ring.

You may want to read my last post. I couldn't get a 12v starter for my Farmall C, so I used a mower battery..

Now what am I going to do? 2 problems solved and nothing to look forward to fixing.
George

Den N Ms · Feb 17, 2015

It has nothing to do with 6 to 12 volt(or 12v to 24v) starters as the starter drive is always fully engaged in the ring gear before the starter starts spinning.

That depends on the type of starter it is and how the drive is engaged.

Richard G. · Feb 17, 2015

I have switched Model Ts for folks and Ford tractors.
All are happy.
My 8N I switched years ago, at least 20, is still doing well. Gets run several times a week and when using it it is started many times each day.
A tractor split once in a blue moon is nothing anyway compared to how easy mine starts since I switched it.
Richard in NW SC

Traditional Farmer · Feb 17, 2015

So starters that are 6 Volt and kept 6 Volt NEVER need any work on them,never go bad,never wear out?
Wonder why they even offer replacement starters for 6 Volt systems since they never break down if kept 6 Volt? One of those great mysteries for the ages I guess(LOL)BTW I have a CA Allis Chalmers that the previous owner switch over to 12 Volt back in the
1980's that still works just fine.I've switched numerous AC WD's,a couple Oliver 77s,a D14 Allis over from 6 to 12 without a problem.

Traditional Farmer · Feb 17, 2015

I just noticed its an old Ford,everything breaks on them all the time anyway.

Dean · Feb 17, 2015

Bingo.

Operating a 6V starter from a 12V battery introduces shock loads to the starter drive and ring gear teeth well beyond design specifications. Additionally, it is very hard on starter nose cones if so designed.

If converting to 12V, converting to a 12V starter, or at least 12V field coils is strongly recommended.

Dean

Dean · Feb 17, 2015

I agree completely, George.

I'va a good friend that made his living rebuilding starters and generators for well over 50 years. He has shown me numerous starter nose cones that have been cracked, all after 12V conversions, not to mention damaged ring gears and starter drives.

This is not to say that many/most will not get away with their 6V starter and 12V battery, especially on antique tractors that see little use but I keep all of mine 6V.

Dean

Geo-TH,In · Feb 17, 2015

Did you miss the part where I've gone through 3 starter drives in 5 years, 2 on jubilee, 1 on Farmall c? I think there is a problem, you don't.

Anyone thinking of converting should know both sides, don't you?

bison · Feb 17, 2015

(quoted from post at 15:06:26 02/17/15) Bingo.

Operating a 6V starter from a 12V battery introduces shock loads to the starter drive and ring gear teeth well beyond design specifications. Additionally, it is very hard on starter nose cones if so designed.

If converting to 12V, converting to a 12V starter, or at least 12V field coils is strongly recommended.

Dean

2 v is easier on a 6v starter than 6 v.
The faster spin should start the engine(provided it is in good shape)in a split second and has no time to heat up versus a slower 6v spinning starter with prolonged cranking often causes the starter to overheat and results in premature burnout and excessive wear on all components involved.

When a nose cone breaks it is either trough other causes or the material is inferior.

I would not recommend using 12 volt on a 6v starter without a nose cone.

this is my story and i am sticking to it

dmbinva · Feb 17, 2015

I may be stirring the pot, but I am known to speak m peace , 12 volt is cheaper and more reliable That is why most folks with working tractors do the 12volt conversion. As far as the starters go, yes a 12 volt starter would be better with a 12 volt battery. But there are thousands of 6 volt starters working on 12 volt systems. I have converted hundreds of Farmalls and Fords to 12 volt over the years 98% of them with the 6 volt starters still on them I do recommend the new positive drive bendix. Years ago I did not have this option. I have seen problems with the ring gear and starter end , most of the time the ring gear needed replacing to start with. Sometimes the customer does not want to go with the added expense. Just remember that it is an awful thin pancake that only has one side
Boss Hog

JDemaris · Feb 17, 2015

It all depends on how well built the 6 volt starter is. Some work fine on 12 volts. A blanket statement saying they all will suffer is nonsense.

I've had a Deere 420, two Oliver HGs, two Case VACs, a Ford 641, and a Ferguson TO35 that have been using 12 volt batteries for 30 years now with no starter failures. Same for a Shaw tractor I have with a Wisconsin engine and Prestolite starter.

On the other hand - I put TOO much battery in a car with a 12 volt starter and two huge 12 volt batteries (in parallel). 327 V8 in my 1964 Chevelle SS. Direct-drive Delco starter. With one battery and cranking voltage at 9 volts it held up OK but was slow at times. Since I was getting big tractor batteries for free - I installed two. That brought cranking voltage up to 10.5-11 volts and starting breaking starter drives.

old-9 · Feb 17, 2015

Bison, With all due respect, you said " It has nothing to do with 6 to 12 volt(or 12v to 24v) starters as the starter drive is always fully engaged in the ring gear before the starter starts spinning." Just how is that? The starter motor has to turn to extend/ retract the " bendix" to engage the flywheel? Or am I not seeing it? joe

Geo-TH,In · Feb 17, 2015

I've been driving for 50 years. NEVER HAD A STARTER DRIVE FAIL nor chipped a tooth. Had starter failures, bearings, brushes, solenoids, but NEVER a starter drive failure. Before Auto Zone came to town it was cheaper to rebuild your own starters and altenators. So I've rebuilt many starters. The Zone changed things for me. I buy life time starters and alternators and haven't worked on one since.

In 5 years, 3 drove failures and a chipped tooth all on 6v antique tractors converted to 12v. And some are trying to say there isn't a problem. IMHO, That doesn't pass the giggle test.

bison · Feb 17, 2015

(quoted from post at 16:56:05 02/17/15) Bison, With all due respect, you said " It has nothing to do with 6 to 12 volt(or 12v to 24v) starters as the starter drive is always fully engaged in the ring gear before the starter starts spinning." Just how is that? The starter motor has to turn to extend/ retract the " bendix" to engage the flywheel? Or am I not seeing it? joe

ld-9 you are right,..i didn't think about these old starters that had not yet a solenoid and fork to engage the starter drive into the ring gear before the batt contacts engeged the starter windings.
Obviously upping the power on them old starters may cause some problems

sotxbill · Feb 17, 2015

you may have doubled the power but not quadupled it.

I have seen too many 12 volt conversions go over 40 years with NO problems.

However I have had lots of flats after converting to 12 volts... So.. Therefore converting to 12 volts causes lots of flat tires. You can write that in stone.

A rusted up bendix will pretty much screw up anything.

armand tatro · Feb 17, 2015

With all due respect George I have to disagree with you! I have tractors running 12 volt batteries with 6 volt starters and the starters do not slam into gear! As to exchanging starters instead of rebuilding them I gave up the original starter on a Ford F 250 pickup built in Canada and started going thru starter drives and ring gears so I will have my starters rebuilt localy! The only starters I will exchange are small car batteries that can not be rebuilt. Now I know that you do not owe a M & M M5 but I have been told if you start them with the Ampli-torque in low you will break the nose cone The point I am making here is that factors can cause starter problems besides voltage! Respecfully,

Armand

John M · Feb 17, 2015

You bought a starter from YT, and Autozone, probably built in China, and you blame the 12 volts for the "problem(s)" youre having?

Ultradog MN · Feb 17, 2015

This post settles it.
For me at least.
I'm going to stick with tractors that came from the factory with 12 volt systems.

Ultradog MN · Feb 17, 2015

Fortunately,
Using a 6 V starter in a 12 V system doesn't cause the risk to life and limb that other types of behavior does.

VicS · Feb 17, 2015

It is possible to move the ring gear without splitting the tractor. You need some way to turn the engine. Then just heat the ring gear. It will expand and turn. Turned one in a Versatile. Don't think is 12v starter falt. I guess you know bthe engine just stops on a 4 cyl. In two places. One easy thing to do is just as you turn key let the clutch out, in gear of course. So it stops in a new place.

M-MAN · Feb 18, 2015

Of course it can chip a tooth. Course a 6v can also.

It all boils down to thinking about what you're doing. If you're running a 6v system you want the biggest cables you can get along with the highest cca battery. If you hook 12v to that same starter you want puny automotive cables and the lowest cca battery you can get. As long as you do that there won't be any problems that woulden't happen anyway. JMO

Traditional Farmer · Feb 18, 2015

Another thing he is missing is sometimes starters need to be shimmed and aftermarket starters like he
is buying are notorious for not being exactly the same as the original.If the starter drive goes in too deep and the base hits the ring gear it won't last.The only real way to install a starter right these days is paint the ring gear, start the engine a few times with the new starter,then pull it back off and see if its going too far if it is it needs to be shimmed.

buickanddeere · Feb 18, 2015

Most of these old machines had chipped , worn and torn ring gears while still on 6V.
Sloppy operation of the key switch, kick backs from over advanced timing and sticky starter bendex drives . Are all too common.
There maybe four times the electrical power flowing through the starter. However the magnetc flux path was likely saturated before power exceeded 200%.

Geo-TH,In · Feb 18, 2015

B&D,
You are the only person to mention the magnet
flux path was likely saturated before power
exceeded 200%.

Good point, never thought of that.

The chip on tooth is recent, no rust.

If the starter had a solenoid to engage drive
before applying power to motor like the old
Chrysler starters, there may be no issue with
chipping teeth.

The ford starter doesn't have a solenoid to pull
drive in. Drive is activated by rotational
inertia. The instant I pushed on the starter
button the drive hit the ring hard. I could tell
there was a major problem by the sound. This is
the second drive. I replaced this drive about 2
years ago. Got drive from YT. Somehow the drive
hit the backside to the tooth squarely and
chipped off more than half of the tooth. The
drive didn't damage the teeth on each side of the
chipped tooth.

I really feel good about the new 12v starter.
Sounds good. Runs slower like a starter should.
Thanks.
George

JMOR · Feb 18, 2015

(quoted from post at 18:39:29 02/18/15) B&D,
You are the only person to mention the magnet
flux path was likely saturated before power
exceeded 200%.

Good point, never thought of that.

The chip on tooth is recent, no rust.

If the starter had a solenoid to engage drive
before applying power to motor like the old
Chrysler starters, there may be no issue with
chipping teeth.

The ford starter doesn't have a solenoid to pull
drive in. Drive is activated by rotational
inertia. The instant I pushed on the starter
button the drive hit the ring hard. I could tell
there was a major problem by the sound. This is
the second drive. I replaced this drive about 2
years ago. Got drive from YT. Somehow the drive
hit the backside to the tooth squarely and
chipped off more than half of the tooth. The
drive didn't damage the teeth on each side of the
chipped tooth.

I really feel good about the new 12v starter.
Sounds good. Runs slower like a starter should.
Thanks.
George

s I said in one post, not much torque is applied prior to gear engagement due to bendix dog-clutch function, which can not engage until gears are already engaged.

6v to 12v conversion can damage teeth on flywhee.

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