Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
I dont know about the rest of you guys but from where I stand here in Iowa the laws are as clear as mud. I have been told by my local sheriff that if im hauling an antique pulling tractor or two on a 25 foot gooseneck trailer behind my F250 that I need not worry. As long as the pickup and trailer are registered to me and that I own the tractors it isnt a problem. When I called the IDOT they told me I needed DOT numbers on the pickup, a fire extinguisher with lables on the doors, and a class A CDL. They also told me that I had to have around a 12 ton tags on the pickup AND the trailer, However, I can pull two 1000 bushel wagons behind the same pickup loaded with corn with no tags or lights, Figure corn at 60lbs. per bushel to make the math easy. Hmmmm! I also have read all about the dot and those who claim that the dot is about safty not state cash flow. My question is if its all about safty then why do they issue fines?Wouldent a verbal warning sufice? And for any DOT cop or upstanding member of the Iowa state patrol, the next time you catch me going 59 in a 55 zone could you please use a little tact? If im going to help out with your payroll would it kill you to be frendly?
 
Mike
Too much in your post to respond to all, so will just pick two items.
Fine vs warning- sometimes a warning is enough to educate a driver for a very minor violation, other times the fine has to be big enough to convince the driver that it is a lot cheaper to follow the rules.
I sure hope you were not serious about hauling 2000 bu of corn behind an F250. No way on God's Green Earth you could control or stop such a load.

Bob'd Old Iron
Ignorance of rules is no excuse.

Enough said
Willie
 
looks like 2 different issues to me, first as long as your hauling your equipment on your trailer, behind your truck, and you are not hauling for money , or any kind of compensation you dont need a dot number, however in most states license data it states that you are limited to pulling a trailer which weighs 10,000 lbs or less, unless you have a class A cdl the license is not necessarily related to the dot number, the license is for making sure that if your going to pull that much weight, you have the proper training to do so safely,the dot number is for tracking commercial trucking, [ pulling somebody else s freight on your trailer for pay]you dont have to have a big rig to need a dot number, any vehicle which hauls or pulls freight not owned by you, for your use, for pay, is required to have a dot number now , here in nm, the ratings are visible on the back of my cdl class A license as to how much trailer weight each class can handle, all except class A are limited to 10,000 lbs gross weight
 

As usual when this question comes up pretty much weekly I am amazed at the problem that guys have with this. Just go to your local registry or DOT and ask for the book. They print them because as a taxpayer you would not want to pay the number of DOT workers that it would take to verbally answer the thousands of questions. As to fine vs. warning: A friend told me that he keeps hauling heavy because the fine is not great enough to offset his loss of income if he were to haul just one load at a time instead of one and a half. Before enforcement became aggressive an owner operator that used to deliver to my business used to have my load on his truck along with a load from another manufacturer to another destination. Do you really want your family on the road with trucks carrying 90,000 with brakes for 60,000?
 
one of the reasons i got educated on this here was about 5 years ago one of my old man friends got tagged for the same thing, he was in his 80's then, had one eye and had trucked and farmed all his life, due to his one eye he was limited to pulling a 26 foot pup trailer by the state, he would buy a whole barn full of hay, then travel about 150 miles round trip and get 300 bales at the time and haul them back up here, old charlie wasnt hurting anybody, just trying to stay active doing something, but they made him get a cdl class A as well as a dot number too in his 80's because as they said, while your are hauling your owned hay, on your owned trailer behind your owned tractor, charlie, your selling the hay! so the way we see it your still a commercial trucker
 
Okay, retired NYSP DOT Trooper here. It all depends on what you are doing, where you are doing it and what your State law says. NYS foolishly adopted the FMCSA regs in their entirety. Dumb,dumb, dumb. Most state haven't done that. But, in simple terms, licensing and DOT rules are 2 different things that don't always work together until you get into interstate hauling in a CMV. Also, even the DOT regs have exemptions for farm operations and you'd need to look into your states specifics to be sure of what you are doing.

To really know for sure what you need you need to first off determine if your state looks at your rig and what you are doing as a "Commmercial Motor Vehicle". And then you need to differentiate between state DOT laws and Federal DOT laws, IOW- Interastate vs Interstate. You may not be under Federal DOT jurisdiction at all. But, in my state, if you were hauling with a rig with a combined GVWR to go to an antique tractor pull where the possibility of a prize for placing was awarded, you'd be under DOT rules.

I very strongly suggest if you want to get the straight scoop you trya nd sit down with one of your states DOT officers and explain the whole set up. Your county sheriff may mean well, but unless he's cross trained as a DOT inspector he's not very likely to be up to snuff on the applicability and rules. And then remember that once you cross state lines it all changes. Also, tractor pulls are not an agricultural operation. I had a guy try that line of reasoning once.
 
My question is , I have a cdl a with doubles,tanker,cycle,air . I pull my 30" goose neck registered to me personaly with my p/u registered to my very own company. The truck is plated for personal use as it only a parts/butt buggy. How do they look at that? The best part is when I help on the farm I was told by the dot that my license was no good and needed a FARM endorsement! What I don"t like is NO standards!!!!! You put 1000 different dot in a room give them 1 question and you get 1000 different answers. I could go on and on but my blood pressure is thru the roof. Trucker
 
Our tractor club in Glenwood (SW Iowa) had a DOT guy in a couple of years ago to explain hauling our tractors legally. Most I learned was what was acceptable and not for chain and binders. The weight issues are still clear as mud. I know they look at farm, commercial & private very diffrently. I remeber he did say that if we are in our private vehicle and taking a tractor to a show or parade that we would be considered private. If it was pulling tractor with sponsorship it was considered commercial. They said they catch a lot of race car guys becuase they consider a race car with sponsorship a commercial venture and most racers don"t take that into account.
 
(quoted from post at 05:33:16 12/06/12) Okay, retired NYSP DOT Trooper here. It all depends on what you are doing, where you are doing it and what your State law says. NYS foolishly adopted the FMCSA regs in their entirety. Dumb,dumb, dumb. Most state haven't done that. But, in simple terms, licensing and DOT rules are 2 different things that don't always work together until you get into interstate hauling in a CMV. Also, even the DOT regs have exemptions for farm operations and you'd need to look into your states specifics to be sure of what you are doing.

To really know for sure what you need you need to first off determine if your state looks at your rig and what you are doing as a "Commmercial Motor Vehicle". And then you need to differentiate between state DOT laws and Federal DOT laws, IOW- Interastate vs Interstate. You may not be under Federal DOT jurisdiction at all. But, in my state, if you were hauling with a rig with a combined GVWR to go to an antique tractor pull where the possibility of a prize for placing was awarded, you'd be under DOT rules.

Brett, I know that you are very knowledgable on the DOT regs but why not recommend getting one's own book. I find the one for here in NH to be very clear. DOT seems to be very happy to give them out.

I very strongly suggest if you want to get the straight scoop you trya nd sit down with one of your states DOT officers and explain the whole set up. Your county sheriff may mean well, but unless he's cross trained as a DOT inspector he's not very likely to be up to snuff on the applicability and rules. And then remember that once you cross state lines it all changes. Also, tractor pulls are not an agricultural operation. I had a guy try that line of reasoning once.
 
You need to read the book in the post above. Follow the flow chart on page 8. You didn't say how big your trailer is, but for the most part if your trailer has more than 4 tires, you will need a CDL. If it only has 4 tires, you do not for hauling your own stuff.

Weight is all on the truck in Iowa - not on the trailer. Now read page 36 - probably a couple times. If your total weight with the tractor and trailer is less than 16,800 lbs, you only need licensed on your truck for the empty weight. Note: That will only cover 1 tractor. A standard 3 ton license also wont cut it. You will need at least a 4 or 5 ton license.
If you are hauling more weight than that (2 tractors) you will have to be licensed for the total weight - probably 10 -12 tons. Now it starts to get expensive.

Carry the book with you with the proper pages marked. You will need them to explain this to the DOT officer.
 
Had a long talk with a Iowa D O T officer early this fall. He said what they look at first is how well the load is tied down, I E, is there enough tie downs to hold the load in place no matter what happens. I E two tie downs holding a load that is 8000 lbs is sure to get you a ticket for inproper load securement.
 
Son got pulled over for going by a scale in SD a while back. Only had a G JD on the new gooseneck he bought and was bringing home. He knew he was in trouble when he went by and the officer was coming out the door looking at him going past. Anyway, the guy was more of a tractor guy and asked more questions about the tractor than anything. Let him off with a warning about going past scales. The officer told him they check the weight ratings of the tires on the trailers a lot and catch a lot of guys over weight on them.
 
I thought it was funny when a car in front of me got pulled over by DOT.Wasnt quite as funny when I also got picked up for speeding by same DOT officer on county road I live on.I had my pickup and gooseneck so I asked what I needed to be legal.He stated as long as I was a farmer hauling my farming eguiptment or products[not for hire] I did not need CDL,#s,med card,but did need load secured correctly.He seemed to think it might change but in Ia the farmers get a big break.I have every thing CDL connected but prefer to remain in farmer category.When I asked about scales said they are for commercial vehicles.He also asked me about what I hauled and everything was good then he handed me my ticket for 6/10 over $40 plus $72 court costs.I just said Thank-You but that wasnt what I was thinking.
 
(quoted from post at 06:11:47 12/06/12) My question is , I have a cdl a with doubles,tanker,cycle,air . I pull my 30" goose neck registered to me personaly with my p/u registered to my very own company. The truck is plated for personal use as it only a parts/butt buggy. How do they look at that? The best part is when I help on the farm I was told by the dot that my license was no good and needed a FARM endorsement! What I don"t like is NO standards!!!!! You put 1000 different dot in a room give them 1 question and you get 1000 different answers. I could go on and on but my blood pressure is thru the roof. Trucker

It5 depends on what your state laws are and if your doing interstate work. And when you say DOT, are you talking State DOT, Federal DOT or State DMV? In my state you'd be a CMV in all cases and operating under FMCSA rules. Here there is no difference between personal use and commercial IF the rig is being used for the business or to assist another business. If you're going to get a loaf of bread, that;s different.

I know all about the seeming lack of standards. IME the problem isn't so much a lack of standards, the rules and regs and laws are all written down. The problem is that people confuse State and Federal DOT and try and apply something from one state to another under state law or to apply interstate to intrastate or licensing in one state ti interstate, etc. I sympathize. Thats why we spent almost as much time reading the numerous books and trying to keep up with changes and then to advise people of how to do things right as we did doing inspections and such. I know not all DOT guys do that, but in my mind that was the right way.
 
From the link on IOWA laws;

quote
Commercial vehicle – any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a
highway to transport passengers or property when:
A. In interstate commerce is defined as:
 A single vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle
weight (GVW) more than 10,000 pounds.
 A combination vehicle having a combined weight rating or gross
combined weight more than 10,000 pounds.
 Designed or used to transport more than eight passengers (including
the driver) for compensation.
 Designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers (including
the driver) and is not used to transport passengers for compensation.
 Used in transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring
placards.
B. In intrastate commerce is defined as:
 A single vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle
weight more than 10,000 pounds.
 A combination vehicle having a combined weight rating or cross
combined weight more than 26,000 pounds.
 A combination vehicle with a power unit gross vehicle weight rating or
gross vehicle weight more than 10,000 pound regardless of the trailer
rating or weight.
 Designed or used to transport more than eight passengers (including
the driver) for compensation.
 Designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers (including the
driver) and is not used to transport passengers for compensation.
 Used in transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring
placards.

QUOTE


You will note that they define "commercial" by weight -- most states do that. Farm plates will generally get you out of the biggest part of the tickets, but they are looking.

On the CDL requirement;

QUOTE
A commercial driver’s license (CDL) is required for anyone driving any of the
following sizes or types of vehicles.
 A single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than
26,000 pounds.
 A combination vehicle with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of
more than 26,000 pounds [b:6d94253fba]when the towed vehicle GVWR is more than
10,000 pounds.[/b:6d94253fba]
 A passenger vehicle having a seating capacity for 16 or more persons,
including the driver.
 A vehicle transporting hazardous material in a quantity requiring a placard.
QUOTE

I added the bold. Your trailer is over 10k and your combined load is very likely over 26k.


There is a FARM exemption

QUote
Commercial driver’s license (CDL) exemptions
Farmers and farm helpers
Drivers of commercial motor vehicles under the control of the farmer and used
in their farm operation may claim an exception from the requirement to have a
CDL, provided all of the following conditions are met.
• Must stay within a 150 air-mile radius of the home farm.
• Must transport supplies, equipment, or products for that farm operation.
• Must transport from farm site to farm site, or to and from the home farm.
• May not transport for-hire, but may exchange services with other farmers.
Generally, drivers of farm operated commercial motor vehicles may operate
across state lines within a 150 air-mile radius of the home farm, provided the
neighboring state recognizes the CDL exception from the state of issuance. It is
advisable to consult with the officials of a neighboring state before crossing a
state line.

QUOTE


It is actually fairly clear.






(^ yeah, that was a joke! ;) )
 
I have to comment about one-eyed Charlie in a situation like that if he would've told the DOT he was hauling hay for HIS cattle he wouldn't of had to go through the crap that he did.
 
Eric, it is my understanding that a CDL is not needed for a truck/trailer combination that weighs 26,000 lbs or less. I believe the law reads "more than 26,000 lbs GCWR [u:e026c47ea7]and[/u:e026c47ea7] trailer GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs require a CDL-A" the key here being the word "and" not "or"!
I operate a truck/trailer combination where the truck GVWR is 9,900 lbs and the trailer GVWR is 14,000 lbs giving me a GCWR of 23,900 lbs, so no CDL required.
Further, if the GCWR is over 26,000 lbs, but the towed vehicle (trailer) GVWR is 10,000 lbs or less, then a CDL-B would suffice.
JMHO, HTH, Dave
Edit: this is my understanding of the regulations in NH, YMMV
 
"My question is if its all about safty then why do they issue fines? Wouldent a verbal warning sufice?"

Do you think if I knew that the only thing I was going to get was a verbal warning every time I was found in violation that I would go threw the trouble and expence of making it legal.

Its more about job creation.
 
Sheepdog
Every thing you said is true but you did not tell the whole truth.

Lets look at ..................
Further, if the GCWR is over 26,000 lbs, but the towed vehicle (trailer) GVWR is 10,000 lbs or less, then a CDL-B would suffice.

This is true only if the GVWR of the truck is over 26000 lbs.

If the GCWR is over 26000 lbs but the trailer is under 10000 lbs and the truck is under 26000 lbs no cdl is needed.
 
John, I'm not 100% positive, but I think that the GCWR needs to be under 26,001 in NH for the exception, but I could be wrong!
Dave
Edit: Here's how it applies in NH

•Class A: Combination vehicle weighing over 26,001 pounds with the trailer weighing over 10,000 pounds
•Class B: Single or combination vehicle weighing over 26,001 pounds and a trailer weighing less than 10,000 pounds
•Class C: Vehicles weighing 26,000 pounds or less, carrying hazardous materials or transporting 16 or more passengers

The statement under Class B that says "single or combination vehicle weighing" is what leads me to believe that one would need a CDL-B to legally operate a truck rated 23,000 lbs pulling a trailer rated 5,000 lbs in NH.
 
(quoted from post at 15:35:28 12/08/12) John,I though farmers were allowed to haul their hay?

This is where intrastate and interstate get confused and licensing and DOT get confused.

YOUR STATE may say a farmer is exempt from being considered a Commercial Vehicle and falling under their heavy vehicle rules, but as far as the Federal DOT rules a commercial motor vehicle is defined as any vehicle or combination of vehicles with a GVWR or CGVWR of more than 10K lbs engaged in commerce. That's not verbatim, but that's the easiest to understand way of putting it. "Commerce" in the sense they are talking is any activity where the use to the vehicle is part of the activity and the activity gives the participants the OPPORTUNITY for compensation. That's also not verbatim, but the easiest way to understand it. So, farming is commercial, even you don't break even, you still are compensated for your efforts. Landscapers, plumbers, carpenters, car shows, tractor pulls, logging, etc all can be commercial where the possibility of compensation exists and the GVWR or CGVWR exceeds 10,001 lbs. So your 1/2 tin pickup with a 5500 lbs GVWR and trailers with a 4800 GVWR give a CGVWR of 10,300 lbs and you are hauling feed for your cattle- in the eyes of the Feds and some states you are a CMV.

LICENSING in the intrastate area is strictly up to he State, they may not require a CDL for farm ops or they may follow DOT guidelines. Once you get into interstate then you have to follow DOT licensing guidelines. DOT has exemptions for farm operations too.

There, that ought to really confuse things.
 
I have posted this before about prize money. It is best to print this off and carry it with you.
Here is what the book says, along with an official interpretation.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=390.3


Specifically, 390.3(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to -

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;

Even with the Guidance below, supplied by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, hobbyists are being stopped and cited by enforcement officers.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the “occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise” apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.
 
Very interesting discussion.

I ran a business for 25 years and had lettered trucks including a bucket truck that weighs 13,500 empty (of cargo) which was also towing trailers with machinery or product.

I operated in New York state and never applied for a dot number.

I was pulled over a few times by NYSP but the issue of weight or license never came up. I also have a tow truck endorsement.

Is this an issue mainly for interstate operators?

Thanks in advance,

Brad
 
(quoted from post at 08:51:50 12/09/12) I have posted this before about prize money. It is best to print this off and carry it with you.
Here is what the book says, along with an official interpretation.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=390.3


Specifically, 390.3(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to -

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;

Even with the Guidance below, supplied by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, hobbyists are being stopped and cited by enforcement officers.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the “occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise” apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.


Jim, that's new. I don;t have it in my books, but they are 4 years old now. Good to know, thank you! My apologies for posting incorrect info.
 
(quoted from post at 19:24:55 12/09/12) Very interesting discussion.

I ran a business for 25 years and had lettered trucks including a bucket truck that weighs 13,500 empty (of cargo) which was also towing trailers with machinery or product.

I operated in New York state and never applied for a dot number.

I was pulled over a few times by NYSP but the issue of weight or license never came up. I also have a tow truck endorsement.

Is this an issue mainly for interstate operators?

Thanks in advance,

Brad

Brad, it depends on when you were doing this. The whole DOT thing came about 6 years back, give or take. The state adopted the FMCSA rules and it took a couple years before things really got going.

If you are still running the trucks, I'm surprised you haven't been notified by NYS. Also, regular road Troopers aren't up on this, it's the CVEU guys in the black Dickies wearing the ball caps that are tasked with this stuff, the "scales" guys.
 
(quoted from post at 08:51:50 12/09/12) I have posted this before about prize money. It is best to print this off and carry it with you.
Here is what the book says, along with an official interpretation.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=390.3


Specifically, 390.3(f) Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to -

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;

Even with the Guidance below, supplied by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, hobbyists are being stopped and cited by enforcement officers.

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the “occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise” apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.
That's interesting about the Guidance given. It seems they want you to report the winnings as ordinary income but not report expenses. This runs counter to activities like gambling, where you can deduct losses up to the amount of winnings; that makes it a wash financially and is treated as a hobby. Only non-hobbyists (professional gamblers) can deduct losses that exceed winnings for the year. You would think that for hobby car racing it would work the same way, declare the winnings and expenses, but don't be allowed to take a loss.
 
The Sheriff or State Patrol don't have anything to do with motorcarrier enforcement. They aren't going to know or have the ability to find out if you're over weight. They won't look to see if you have the prescribed safety equipment. If they stop you it's going to be because you're speeding, lights not working, simple traffic violations. The DOT is who will weigh you, check your brakes, suspension, etc. Your best advice would be call or stop by the DOT's main office in Ankeny and give them specifics of what you plan to do. Before you call or stop, weigh your truck so you know for sure how much weight you're dealing with.
Otherwise, Jim posted very good advice.
 
Iowa uses federal DOT regs as in state regs. See Jim's post above as there is an exemption for those of us who aren't in the transportation business.
 

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