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Tractor Transporting Discussion Forum

CDL lesson 2

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John in La

07-14-2012 18:49:22
67.35.233.15



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OK this one is a little harder so follow along.

You own a plumbing business so you are considered a commercial business. For this business you own a Ford F550 with a enclosed box on the back to haul your tools and parts.
The GVWR of the truck is 20,000 lbs
The GCWR for this truck is over 30,000 lbs

For some jobs you need your trencher so you also got a tandem axle 16 ft trailer with 3500 lb axles under it.
So the GVWR of the trailer is 7000 lbs.
This is the only trailer you ever pull behind this truck.

So with this set up your truck alone has a GVWR of 20,000 lbs and with the trailer you have a GCWR of 27,000 lbs.

Question #1 (Yes or No)
Off the top of your head with no research do you think you need a CDL to drive this rig?
(Remember CDL laws start at 26,001 lbs)

Question #2 (Yes or No)
Look at These CDL rules and flow chart. Now do you think you need a CDL to drive this rig?

Please be honest with your answers. Do not look at the other answers and try to make up your mind from what someone else said. This is not to see if you got it wrong or right but rather a percentage of right and wrong answers. Heck post under a different name if you want to.

If I can get my hands on the new book with the rule changes for 2012 we might even cover that later. From what I have heard (do not know for sure) there may be some very interesting changes being made that may help a lot of you guys

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Bret4207

08-05-2012 07:02:32
64.19.90.196



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
John, you have your hands full trying to clear things up on DOT rules. And lets also throw the other big bone into the mix- Interstate vs Intrastate. That can make all the difference and yet confuse things beyond all understanding. Or trying to convince someone that they really are "Commercial" after all.

My hats off to you for trying.



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Tony C.

08-07-2012 11:25:13
69.127.139.162



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Bret4207, 08-05-2012 07:02:32  
Speaking of interstate and intrastate, can anyone tell me the difference in requirements between obtaining DOT registration numbers for intrastate versus interstate.

I have seen DOT numbers on trucks in New York where they have the two letters "NY" at the end of the number and was told these are the ones for intrastate only.

I'd assume there must be something easier about registering for intrastate, otherwise why not just go for the interstate registration. Could it be less insurance, no health card, or something like that? I don't know the answer(s).

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Bret4207

08-08-2012 07:21:20
64.19.90.196



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Tony C., 08-07-2012 11:25:13  
Several years back NYS adopted the FMCSA rules in their entirety. The Legislature had no clue what they were doing, but there you have it. So, now all commercial vehicles in NY need to comply with FMCSA rules that apply to them. The DOT # is issued and ID's that vehicle as a intrastate unit. As far as I know, there is no cost for getting the number. I'm not aware of any costs that would be any lower since the same equipment and everything else is the same as for an interstate vehicle, except for IFTA and similar taxes.

I was a NYSP DOT Inspector for the last 6 years of my career. You aren't the first guy to wonder about this.

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Jim G.

08-07-2012 13:21:21
68.238.203.99



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Tony C., 08-07-2012 11:25:13  
I'm not completely sure of the answer, butas a semi-retired CDL driver, I can suggest that the Interstate DOT registration does not necessarily include the Intrastate rights and privileges. Here in PA, interstate DOT registrations are only allowed to carry INTERstate freight to , from, or through PA. Intrastate registration allows transporting freight between points within the state.



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PeteTheRookie

07-28-2012 18:24:45
74.78.21.209



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Sid, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
No and No.

Pete



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Rob Mo.

07-28-2012 17:53:28
99.1.128.150



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
I am not sure what the dot regulations say about when a cdl license is required for privately own vehicles. For years, I had a schuoffers license to drive a tow truck. It's was because we licensed our vehicles under 26,001 that we didn't not need a cdl or so that's what I have understood. As far as I concerned, why would you need a cdl for a F-550 without the trailer? I am like you & don't understand what the book is really trying to say.

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Anthony

07-22-2012 10:54:39
69.127.139.162



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  

John in La said: (quoted from post at 18:49:22 07/14/12) ...Please be honest with your answers. Do not look at the other answers and try to make up your mind from what someone else said. This is not to see if you got it wrong or right but rather a percentage of right and wrong answers. Heck post under a different name if you want to.

If I can get my hands on the new book with the rule changes for 2012 we might even cover that later. From what I have heard (do not know for sure) there may be some very interesting changes being made that may help a lot of you guys


John, you bring up a lot of good points in these discussions but I find the whole subject to be very discouraging. It discourages me to the point that I don't feel comfortable pulling a 14K trailer with my 9,900 GVW GMC pickup in NY, NJ and PA without a CDL. I know I will need the DOT registration but there's no way I'm going for a CDL at this stage of my business, especially since I know it's not required by law or regulation.

But as you can see from this thread and your other one there is so much mis-information and mis-interpretation out there even amongst law enforcement that the whole thing stinks.

What have you heard about changes coming (I realize you said not for sure yet)?
This post was edited by Anthony at 10:59:49 07/22/12 2 times.

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John in La

07-22-2012 13:46:04
70.156.102.86



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Anthony, 07-22-2012 10:54:39  
Anthony Any changes in the wording will not effect you because you said the magic words......
my business

The law is very clear that you do not need a CDL with the truck you have listed because you are under 26,000 gcwr. Even the federal interpretation of the law covers it in 383.91
Question 2. You could always go threw both of these post and print out the links I have given and carry them in your truck.

I try to have these discussions because there is so much mis-information and mis-interpretation out there. I try to give my interpretation but I also give the link to the law so anyone can read it and show me where I am wrong.

You should also be safe from IRP and IFTA with this truck/trailer combo since most of those rules also start at 26,000 lbs.
What you are going to need is a medical card and a DOT#. To get that you need the min levels of insurance. Your state may also require a Chauffeur License.

Do not get discouraged. It is fairly easy to start a trucking company today. All you need to do is follow the federal rules as they are laid out. Twenty years ago you would not even be allowed to think about starting a company without some very deep pockets or knowing the right person.

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Anthony

07-23-2012 06:00:30
69.127.139.162



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-22-2012 13:46:04  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

John, my "business" is only a farm, not a trucking company, and it is barely profitable; most years I show a loss to IRS. But I do haul equipment (my own) and produce (purchased for resale) across state lines.

I know I don't need a CDL, but it's the mis-information out there that makes me nervous. I guess I will just keep going and take it as it comes.

In NY even 3/4 ton pickups have DOT numbers on them for pulling landscape trailers. Take my 1-ton SRW truck, 9,900 GVW. As soon as I hook any trailer on I'm over 10K. NY considers farm a business so I need the DOT and whatever goes along with that.

Thanks for the information.

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Bret4207

08-05-2012 07:18:21
64.19.90.196



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Anthony, 07-23-2012 06:00:30  
Anthony, your farm IS a business, there is no question about that. And in NY, even a 1/2 ton PU with a trailer can be commercial and need the DOT #. Why? Because our beloved NY Legislature adopted the USDOT regs a few years back- the whole shebang! That's why we no longer have the non-CDL class C here that used to be required to operate a truck between 18 and 26K. NY was always 7-10 years behind the rest of the country, so they just blindly adopted the regs entirely and that got us to this point. We spent more time educating farmers, landscapers, firewood haulers, etc. on what they needed to do to comply than anything else. It's not all that hard or expensive- the DOT # is free and in your case you'll only be subject to inspection when you have the trailer hooked, same as me with my 16 foot stock trailer. So 2 simple handmade signs with your DOT# and name/farm name/whatever, fire extinguisher, triangles, fuses, tie down, etc. and all the rest is just upkeep. I;m completely serious when I advise you to contact your local NYSP Barracks and to get in touch with any of the CVEU members if you have questions. I spent many, many hours at a guys farm or business going over his trucks and trailers and equipment before he ever even hit the road to get them legal. It's not hard and no one is going to be "out to get you" for asking. The NY Farm Bureau also publishes a handbook in regs, rules and exemptions that the CVEU are issued that is very helpful.

90% of the problems I saw on the road from small timers could have been prevented with a simple phone call for information. We never pounded the guys trying to do things right, but those who knew they were wrong and just played dumb got little sympathy. After you stop that guy the 3rd time in a week doing the same illegal and dangerous thing your tolerance level drops significantly. OTH, in the 6 years I spent as a NYSP DOT Trooper, I met a lot of really good folks that I still enjoy a friendship with today. Half the battle can be won with a little effort in making that first phone call.

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JimEvans

07-22-2012 16:31:35
66.185.0.208



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-22-2012 13:46:04  
Anthony, I don't think anyone that is pulling a trailer with 4 tires with a truck with 4 tires has anything to worry about. The majority of people with that setup is exempt from most of the ugly rules.

The way I read the rules, anyone with a 6+ tire gooseneck (20,000+ GVW) needs to worry and anyone with a dually pickup newer than about 2004 needs to worry if they pull anything bigger than a small car hauler.

I personally have a 2004 dually with 11,500 GVW and a 14,000 GVW trailer. I know I don't need a CDL. The problem will be convincing the DOT officer that I don't need a CDL.

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Anthony

07-23-2012 06:06:44
69.127.139.162



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to JimEvans, 07-22-2012 16:31:35  
Jim, you summed it up in the last paragraph


JimEvans said: (quoted from post at 16:31:35 07/22/12)

I personally have a 2004 dually with 11,500 GVW and a 14,000 GVW trailer. I know I don't need a CDL. The problem will be convincing the DOT officer that I don't need a CDL.


I'm like you, I know I don't need a CDL, but it's unfortunate that we might have to convince law enforcement of that.
This post was edited by Anthony at 06:08:36 07/23/12.

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41 Frank

07-20-2012 18:24:01
50.44.73.167



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
Here in IL, I think the combination vehicle is the rub for CDL most of the time and DOT #. With lawyers writing these laws, they are so ambiguous that even they can't agree on the meaning. Basicly they want the little guy out and the big guy in. Keep on trucking. It is better to ask for forgivness than permission but it might also take some green backs.



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kevinj54

07-18-2012 04:14:15
99.39.189.166



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to jakemersing, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
John,

To clarify my last post:

Most of the trucks are under 10K so they are exempt.

If they need a 1 ton dually or pull a trailer with parts or equipment is where we have the issues with DOT.

Again, the issue seems to be that all of the material and parts are sale-able goods. The issue seems to be in a BIG gray area.



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kevinj54

07-18-2012 03:32:30
66.87.89.201



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to scotc, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
They see it as the plumber must drive the truck to transport tools which does not need a chaufeur.
However the truck has parts for resale so it is commerce so all rules apply.



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kevinj54

07-17-2012 17:32:20
50.36.250.3



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to scotc, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  

orionsrx said: (quoted from post at 21:14:19 07/17/12) Unless you work for a municipality, then you don't need the chauffeurs.


We have the the tickets and it is in the MI law if you look it up.

I think I read your reply wrong...... If big gov don't need a CDL then neither do the rest of us.

That is what is wrong with the law is all the exceptions.

No way should firemen, city workers, gramps in a motor home be exempt!
This post was edited by kevinj54 at 17:35:07 07/17/12.

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John in La

07-17-2012 18:58:21
70.156.102.131



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to kevinj54, 07-17-2012 17:32:20  
Well I did go look it up and here is what it says................

Do I Need a Chauffeur License?
A chauffeur base license is required when a person is:
Employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle or combination of vehicles with a GVWR or
GCWR or GVW or GCW of 10,000 pounds or more.
Operating a motor vehicle as a carrier of passengers or as a common or contract carrier of property.
Operating a bus, school bus, taxi or limousine.
Drivers operating vehicles singly or in combination with a GVW, GVWR, GCW or GCWR of 10,000 pounds or
more must meet the commercial driver medical requirements (including possession of the appropriate medical
card or medical waiver).
If required, the CDL group designator and CDL endorsements are added to the chauffeur base license.

I do not know you situation but with the facts as I have stated them you would not need a chauffeur license. This guy is employed as a plumber. To need a chauffeur license you need to be employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle. In other words your only job is to drive the truck.

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kevinj54

07-17-2012 16:58:50
50.36.250.3



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to soundguy, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Here in MI you need a chauffeur license to go with that health card for the 10.000 to 26.000 range



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orionsrx

07-17-2012 17:14:19
71.82.106.71



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to kevinj54, 07-17-2012 16:58:50  
Unless you work for a municipality, then you don't need the chauffeurs.



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400Dtractorman

07-16-2012 12:42:20
24.112.129.167



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
you don't need a CDL but you DO need a health card to drive that truck. Commercial over 10000 need a health card.



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John in la

07-15-2012 20:50:57
66.157.27.152



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
I see 3 of the 6 resonders got it right.
The answer is No and No.
I have asked this same question to 2 DOT officers and both of them got it wrong so do not feel to bad.
I asked this question because this is where I think a lot of you are getting the assumption that if a trailer is over 10,000 lbs you need a CDL.

To need a class A CDL you have to answer yes to two questions.
Is the GCWR over 26,000 lbs AND (NOT OR) is the trailer GVWR over 10,000 lbs.
If you can answer yes to both of these questions you need a class A.

Class B deals with straight trucks only. If the truck alone is over 26,000 lbs you need a class B. No trailer of any size can make you need a class B it is all about the truck.

Commercial or not commercial does not come into play with CDL rules. You have to have a direct exemption to get out of CDL rules.

They may be doing away with that last paragraph. I have to do a little more research with the new rules to answer that.
The old rules use to exempt things like RV's but I think that exemption is being done away with and the wording to who needs a CDL is being re-worded.

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larry from md.

07-17-2012 09:40:36
97.73.64.148



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in la, 07-15-2012 20:50:57  
Thats not the way they do it here.



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John in La

07-17-2012 16:19:04
70.156.102.131



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to larry from md., 07-17-2012 09:40:36  
That may not be the way they do it in Maryland.

BUT............
That is the law in Maryland and the way they should be doing it.


MARYLAND COMMERCIAL DRIVER LICENSE CLASSES
Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, for the commercial motor
vehicle for which he/she desires a commercial drivers license, and obtain the appropriate endorsement(s)
where required.
Class A License: Authorizes the licensee to operate Tractor/Trailer or Combination of vehicles with a GCWR
of 26,001 or more pounds if the GVWR of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Class B License: Authorizes the licensee to operate any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more
pounds; Any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

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Dick W.

07-15-2012 19:42:05
174.54.58.169



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
#1-NO, #2-NO



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d beatty

07-15-2012 09:36:18
24.12.128.253



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
Guys keep arguing over which CDL. Both A and B class cost $30.00 for four years, need to take driving test for both and take a physical exam. I would just take the class A and not worry about if I was legal or not.



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BrianJasper co. Ia

07-15-2012 09:19:59
67.142.162.23



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
DOT numbers, current annual inspection, and in the case of that plumber that probably stays within 150 air miles from home, and returns within 10hrs, an exempt log book.



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BrianJasper co. Ia

07-15-2012 09:09:59
67.142.162.23



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
No CDL needed even with the trailer. Truck is under 26K. Even though the truck and trailer together is 27K, the trailer is under 10K, so no CDL needed. If the trailer was over 10K, then a Class A CDL would be needed. Class B covers straight truck only. A truck and trailer is a combination vehicle so a Class A would be needed.



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Thom Andrews

07-15-2012 08:35:41
205.188.116.195



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
Class B if you are not pulling a trailer. (DOT will pull out the portable scales on you.) However, if you pull the trailer...it's a Class A. Reasons for Class B: You are a business, and DOT will watch you like a hawk! If you pull that trailer without a Class A...fines will be levied!
(At least that is how it is in Indiana. I'm a truck driver here.)



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JimEvans

07-14-2012 22:25:50
66.185.0.208



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
No CDL required.
Next question is if you need DOT numbers.



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John in La

07-15-2012 06:20:33
66.157.27.152



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to JimEvans, 07-14-2012 22:25:50  
I will not answer if you got the CDL question right till others answer.

But for the DOT#. It depends on what state you live in.
If you cross a state line with the truck then you need one in every state.
If your main office is in one state (lets say Va) but you work out of a differant office (lets say N.C.) then you will need it even if you do not cross state lines.
Both of these really do not apply to most plumbers.
But if you live in a green state you need one even if you do not cross state lines.

This is what brings up very big up risings.
Some green states have exemptions to the rule for some people. Some try to say if he has a exemption why not me. We have the same size truck.
Or the state may try to do away with a exemption. This happened in Iowa a while back with farmers. There was a bunch of stink to finelly the state backed down.

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Adrian Billheimer

07-14-2012 20:35:09
208.111.221.71



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
To my understanding of this all, your first line answers both questions: "You own a buisness", as long as you have your buisness name on the side of the truck, you ARE commercial, therefore need CDL, from what I understand, even if you have a lawn mowing buisness and have a buisness name on the side of a 1/4 ton truck (ford ranger or similar), you are considered commercial and can be hasseled as such at a stop.

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JimEvans

07-15-2012 17:50:08
66.185.0.208



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to Adrian Billheimer, 07-14-2012 20:35:09  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

So every pizza delivery driver needs a CDL? I think not.



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welding man

07-14-2012 20:28:43
76.9.225.76



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to John in La, 07-14-2012 18:49:22  
You will need a Class B, but only when towing the trailer.



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cdl1111

07-20-2012 13:25:06
198.185.164.128



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to welding man, 07-14-2012 20:28:43  
NYS

If the towing vehicle is under 18,000 GVW and the combined GCVW is under 26,000 you don't generally need a CDL

If you have a CDL you need an extra endorsment if your towing a traler over 10,000 GVW.

Thoughts?



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Anthony

07-22-2012 10:34:16
69.127.139.162



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 Re: CDL lesson 2 in reply to cdl1111, 07-20-2012 13:25:06  

cdl1111 said: (quoted from post at 13:25:06 07/20/12) NYS

If the towing vehicle is under 18,000 GVW and the combined GCVW is under 26,000 you don't generally need a CDL

If you have a CDL you need an extra endorsment if your towing a traler over 10,000 GVW.

Thoughts?
All the stuff about 18,000 lbs went away several years ago in NYS. NY now follows the regular federal CDL regs; 26K or less straight truck you do not need a CDL, a regular Class D will suffice. If pulling a trailer over 10K AND total combination is over 26K you need the Class A CDL. If trailer is 10K or less you can pull it with any truck up to 26K and not need a CDL. If trailer is over 10K but total combination is 26K or less you do not need a CDL in NYS.

NY is one of the many states that requires DOT registration and numbers for any truck over 10K that is used commercially, even if only operating in-state (intrastate). This applies to farmers, tow trucks, etc, anything used in a business.
This post was edited by Anthony at 10:40:44 07/22/12.

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