Power Company Message - Genset's

Billy NY

Well-known Member
Thought this might be of interest. Last friday, the power company must have sent out blanket phone calls ahead of a potential ice storm. I answered the phone at work and it was a lengthy message. Part of it was a couple of reminders about back up power generators.

They stated that when running your back up generator, don't run it indoors, and make sure you open the main breaker and disconnect the circuit.

Now I thought that was something you would never hear from a power company, instead I was thinking they'd state you would have to have code compliant transfer switch or tell you you cannot back feed without the transfer switch.

Is it legal in any form to back feed given the inherent dangers to linemen ? If illegal, wonder why the message seemed to condone this practice.
 
I would guess that they are saying that because so many people do it instead of a transfer switch--trying to make a safer environment for their linemen
 
If backfeeding was illegal - the law would be written down somewhere. I have yet to see any such law. "Code" certainly has no force of law.
 
They know there are too many rednecks out there, it's going to be that way, so try to cut down on the number for mistakes that are made.


Kind of like the $2 million dollar round about they are putting in in the middle of no where here on a state and county intersection. Great line of sight, flat ground, not really very high traffic area; but they say there are too many accidents, to save people from dying, put in a roundabout.

Because people are too stubborn to say top for the stop signs, roll through the intersection and get T boned.

Paul
 
many town building departments make compliance with the NEC mandatory--with fines and eventual revocation on the certificate of occupancy--
 
I am retired from the generator business. It is not illegal to back feed anywhere. That I know of. But it is a really stupid thing to do. I don't believe in just turning off the main breaker. Pull the meter or have a switch installed that will take the line. Completely off the system. If you have ever smelled burning flesh like I have. You would understand.

Where I live. If the power company hears a generator running. They will come check you out. If they don't like what they find. They will pull your meter.
 
I think they are just putting out a message that relates to the reality that there are way more improperly wired gensets than ones with a transfer switch.

It would be interesting to see the stats on back feed injuries.

I suspect the linemen are well versed about the subject and treat every line as if it were hot.

It's the home owners, the first responders, the volunteers that come to sort out the mess, patch roofs, clean up the downed trees that get in trouble.
 
(quoted from post at 20:09:08 04/16/18) If backfeeding was illegal - the law would be written down somewhere. I have yet to see any such law. "Code" certainly has no force of law.
Yep, not illegal.
Just like there is no law that says you can't clean a firearm while it is loaded.
But if the firearm goes off while cleaning it and you kill your wife, there is a law for that called negligent homicide.
And if you fail to properly prevent backfeeding the grid and kill a lineman, I bet the same law would be applied.

But it was not illegal to backfeed the grid.
 
It maybe or not be the "law" but, I sure would not want to be in that defendant's seat at the trial. Around here the REMC will put a shorting jumper on the line to protect the linemen.
 
(quoted from post at 20:46:32 04/16/18) I don't believe in just turning off the main breaker. Pull the meter or have a switch installed that will take the line Completely off the system.
Where I live. If the power company hears a generator running. They will come check you out. If they don't like what they find. They will pull your meter.

Down here they require you to utilize a transfer switch or pull the main breaker.
If they see you have gone "extra safe" and also pulled the meter, they pull the fuse up on the transformer.
Then when the area power outage has been repaired you have to start the process of getting your power turned back on.

The process is the same as if you never had power before with an electrical permit from the county, inspections for proper installation to current standards, etc. etc. before the county will approve it. Then the power company will come out to restore power after you pay a hefty fine to them.

And that process could take weeks to complete while you are off grid the entire time.
 
Yes - aspects of electric code get codified by certain town, county,and state governmemts. Show me a law or "codified code" that states it is illegal for a private individual to backfeed a generator on his/her own private property with a temporary jumper.
 
(quoted from post at 16:30:46 04/16/18) They stated that when running your back up generator, don't run it indoors, and make sure you [color=blue:5f4080c297][b:5f4080c297]open the main breaker and disconnect the circuit[/b:5f4080c297][/color:5f4080c297].

The way I learned about electric circuits, to "open" a circuit means to "break" the circuit. I believe what they're telling you is to open the main breaker on your pole so that you DON'T feed power back through the power lines going to the street.
 
My emergency generator is wired to a two way switch below the meter on the meter pole. One way with the handle and the house is connected to line power, the other way the house is connected to the generator. The generator can't be connected to the power line. Simple. Just to cover my six, I had a licensed electrician wire it that way.

But, who knows how some homeowners may have wired it themselves.
 
How do they deal with folks that have solar panels? I've read where some folks systems generate enough power that they back feed into the grid. Supposedly, the meter runs backwards when that happens.
 
NEC requires some mechanical method of disconnecting from any building that has a back-up generator. Not sure if any such requirement is in place if no generator, but I would assume for safety's sake it would apply there as well.

Any time there is a generator going and power is able to flow into the power lines that feed the house, then there is a risk factor for anyone who may be working elsewhere on the power lines. ...Let's say that a lineman checks the line he's about to work on and finds it dead -- no power. Then, someone a mile up the road cranks up his genset while the lineman is elbow deep in a mess. Next thing you know, the lineman is dead or seriously injured.
 
Question I have been pondering. Even if the main breaker is pulled, the neutral is still on line. (In older boxes like mine, neutral an bare ground are the same.) I'm not that savvy on theory, but isn't neutral kinda like a return flow?
 
I'd say they're just being realistic: probably over ninety percent of homes using backup generators don't have a proper transfer switch. In areas with a lot of rental properties, that number probably approaches 99.9 percent. And certainly if someone is willing to risk killing their family by running a generator indoors, they're not going to worry about power company linemen.

In Detroit, every winter one or two families die from indoor generators. And illegal power hookups are common, sometimes leading to fires or electrocutions. I haven't heard of any lineman deaths in Motown from backfeeding generators or illegal hookups, but that's probably because any lineman working in Detroit has to be aware of the dangers.
 
"really stupid thing to do" - kind of why I posted about it, given the message the power company was sending. The message was weak and people may interpret it the wrong way. Personally, I am set up with a solar back-up power system, one that I can bulk charge the battery bank from my miller welder to the AC 2 connection of the panel and transfer switch, as well as solar panels. Grid comes back on, it re-charges the batteries.

Not a pleasant smell, I connected with a 220 line at a hard wired thermostat for a unit heater in our ford tractor dealership shop when I was a kid. It was on a steel column, I had reached up to get a welding mask lense on a small shelf on the column and some jerk had left the cover off this thermostat. I was locked to the column, it took 2 people to get me free. 3 bare wire marks left small scars,underside of wrist. You can still see them today. When it was happening I had a front row seat watching the arc and smelling my skin burn, not a darned thing I could do about it, by rights I should not be here today. Nothing but respect for electricity & power, nothing to fool with ever.
 
(quoted from post at 21:24:21 04/16/18) Question I have been pondering. Even if the main breaker is pulled, the neutral is still on line. (In older boxes like mine, neutral an bare ground are the same.) I'm not that savvy on theory, but isn't neutral kinda like a return flow?

Without the hot wires the neutral is just wire that is grounded at the service entrance or at the pole.

Electricity doesn't scare me because I understand it and know what not to do. I hook my generator up to my main service panel which is located outside on a pole. It feeds our house, my shop and a couple out buildings through individual breakers. I installed a breaker just for the generator.

Hook the generator to the breaker, flip the main off, flip the shop and the out building breakers off, start the generator and flip the generator breaker on. A proper transfer switch would be nice but in 15 years I have used the generator twice. Can't see spending the money when my method works and is just as safe as a transfer switch as long as I am the one that does the hook up.
 
I've seen advertisements before for a wind mill system you could run your household electricity. They claim when it's working and you are using less power than the generator is generating the electric company had to buy the power they are getting. If that is true how could back feeding electricity be illegal.

I can understand the electric company robo message. People are so stupid today they will bring in an gas powered generator inside their house and tie it into their main breaker box. If the carbon monoxide doesn't get them their could be a fire from the generator when the power from the utility comes back on.
 
In any extended power outage there are probably thousands of people buying new generators who have never used or hooked up a generator before. Some will try to follow the instructions but many will jury-rig a connection any way they can to just to restore their power ASAP. Sellers are not going to spend much time checking if the panicked buyers know what they are doing. When the emergency is over most of those new generators will get stored in the shed or garage until the next emergency without any thought of spending more money to have a transfer switch properly installed.
 
WOW a question involving BOTH Electrical and Legal issues, ought to be a ton of opinions here (including meeeeeeee lol).

Your Legal question:

"Is it legal in any form to back feed given the inherent dangers to linemen ?

LEGAL ANSWER

A It may or may not be a criminal violation, depends on the states criminal codes, but I doubt you will find that specifically codified.

B Its more apt to be a civil violation based on the "Common Law" definition that "Defendant has a duty not to expose the Plaintiff to a reasonably forseeable risk of injury" NOTE that involves FACT questions for the trier of fact after which the Court would apply the found facts to the law.

I know a few linemen and they are well aware of home genset use and dangers and believe me THEY TAKE ALL NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS

Soooooooooooo many Billy Bob and Bubba non trained non experienced gents out there who have no idea of the proper way to use a genset and safe transfer methods so I advise such gents to consult trained competent professional electricians and engineers and techs.

Take care and be safe out there.

John T BSEE, JD Retired Electrical Engineer and Attorney at Law
 
Interesting comment came out of this: BACKFEED.

I'm thinking about backfeed from individuals that generate their own and sell power back to the supplier. Have no earthly idea as to how that's accomplished, or regulated, or what lineman protective devices are employed, but certainly something to think about.....especially if you are a power company lineman!
 
All the Residential wind turbines and solar systems have to have supplied power to operate. No power in, both systems shut down. If you disconnect from the grid and repower the systems with an inverter from your battery pack you are up and running, but excess power and fully charged batteries will shut the systems down again.
Loren
 
All of this crying and teeth gnashing from power companys, insurance, lawers, and on and on. Go on Utube and look at how wiring is done in third world S hole countries. Stuff looks as if a bunch of kids walked down the street with cans of silly string. As others have said they know what to shut off and know how and when not to touch something.
 
Several years ago I set up my prior home with a generator and a transfer switch. The generator was small, but it supplied adequate power to the house to allow the use of most lights, the furnace, the refrigerator and freezer, and a few outlets. It was Coleman Powermate rated at 6200 watts peak, 5000 watts continuous. The transfer switch was in the basement and there were 6 circuits which were tied into it. The circuits were each controlled by a 3 position switch with those positions being "line," "off," and "generator." It was just a matter of connecting the cord between the box outside of the house to the generator, starting it, and then switching the 6 circuits over. Only used it twice, but I at least had "peace of mind" in having it. Friends of mine who had a similar set up used theirs a few years ago when they were without power for 3 or 4 days. I wouldn't have one in place unless I did it right. That small transfer switch box was only about $175, a small price to pay. For larger sized systems, these switches are more expensive, but so are the generators. In the more recent power outages, there were those who either disconnected at the power service point or pulled their main fuses and "backfed" through a 30 or 50 amp 220v outlet. Yes, it works. Is it the "right way" to do it? Probably not. For me, I guess if I am set up to have backup power, and can justify the expense of buying a generator, I can justify the added expense of the right hardware to be in place, too. That is my opinion about my own specific situation, and is not meant as a criticism directed towards others.
 
Backfeed is prevented with devices that look at incoming voltage and outgoing current to prevent powering the line when dead.
 
(quoted from post at 20:09:08 04/16/18) If backfeeding was illegal - the law would be written down somewhere. I have yet to see any such law. "Code" certainly has no force of law.

Illegal enough to get the meter pulled out of the socket here .
 
(quoted from post at 23:17:18 04/16/18) My emergency generator is wired to a two way switch below the meter on the meter pole. One way with the handle and the house is connected to line power, the other way the house is connected to the generator. The generator can't be connected to the power line. Simple. Just to cover my six, I had a licensed electrician wire it that way.

But, who knows how some homeowners may have wired it themselves.

It is a two pole , three way , break before make transfer switch .
 
(quoted from post at 23:52:39 04/16/18) How do they deal with folks that have solar panels? I've read where some folks systems generate enough power that they back feed into the grid. Supposedly, the meter runs backwards when that happens.

The net meter inverters will not convert DC into AC without sensing 60HZ power on the output side of the inverter .
 
You have to have a transfer switch installed as per your local electrical code(s). If you have a power outage, you hook your generator up without a transfer switch the power that back-feeds to the transformer it makes a dead power line a live power line. The transformer will transform the power back up to the dead line, and it can kill linemen. I have a few friends who are linemen to make a living.

A quick video of a "automatic transfer switch" with a genset https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWAbqeA5bE
 
(quoted from post at 07:42:02 04/17/18)
(quoted from post at 21:24:21 04/16/18) Question I have been pondering. Even if the main breaker is pulled, the neutral is still on line. (In older boxes like mine, neutral an bare ground are the same.) I'm not that savvy on theory, but isn't neutral kinda like a return flow?

Without the hot wires the neutral is just wire that is grounded at the service entrance or at the pole.

Electricity doesn't scare me because I understand it and know what not to do. I hook my generator up to my main service panel which is located outside on a pole. It feeds our house, my shop and a couple out buildings through individual breakers. I installed a breaker just for the generator.

Hook the generator to the breaker, flip the main off, flip the shop and the out building breakers off, start the generator and flip the generator breaker on. A proper transfer switch would be nice but in 15 years I have used the generator twice. Can't see spending the money when my method works and is just as safe as a transfer switch as long as I am the one that does the hook up.

Just so wrong , so cheap , so egotistical, so illegal and so dangerous . Sets a poor example as well and will get copy cats into trouble. Or if you are not there a family member , neighbour or friend is going to make a mistake .
Back feeding into a three prong welder plug is every worse than back feeding into a four wire clothes dryer receptacle or four wire stove receptacle.
Just what exactly are your electrical credentials? Why would experts in the field state not to connect without a transfer switch ?
 
(quoted from post at 08:23:38 04/17/18) In any extended power outage there are probably thousands of people buying new generators who have never used or hooked up a generator before. Some will try to follow the instructions but many will jury-rig a connection any way they can to just to restore their power ASAP. Sellers are not going to spend much time checking if the panicked buyers know what they are doing. When the emergency is over most of those new generators will get stored in the shed or garage until the next emergency without any thought of spending more money to have a transfer switch properly installed.

Most of these people try to return the generator for a refund .
 
One company I worked for gave a brochure with every pay check about a fatality in the industry. Most weeks it was a lineman killed by backfeeding.
 
(quoted from post at 09:20:23 04/17/18) All of this crying and teeth gnashing from power companys, insurance, lawers, and on and on. Go on Utube and look at how wiring is done in third world S hole countries. Stuff looks as if a bunch of kids walked down the street with cans of silly string. As others have said they know what to shut off and know how and when not to touch something.

Life is cheap in third world fecal hole countries .
 
If you have solar panels hooked to your home, and if it is tied in to your local utility you must have a automatic transfer switch. As long as the ATS senses power coming from your utility company it will let any excess power you make back-feed (even if your meter starts turning backwards). When the system that is associated with the ATS senses no power from your utility company it will change the ATS.
 
John, I knew that would get your attention LOL ! Seems you have the credentials for both electrical and legal ! Just though the power companies message was weak and diluted, given the seriousness of electrical safety.
 
We were lucky when we got this place. Power outages were fairly common then, so in rural areas such as this, the power company would install a meter housing that was also a manual transfer switch. No charge! Haven't needed it yet, as haven't lost power since having a generator. ...Should have bought a generator years ago! *lol*
 
Had I been the attorney advising the utility, as BOTH an engineer and attorney I bet I would have came up with a better idea !!!! Most lawyers don't know beans about electricity, nor do electricians know about law lol

John T
 
Bob, in your case a breaker interlock would
be the thing to have. Prevents the
generator breaker from being turned on
unless the main is off. Many places this is
acceptable instead of a dedicated transfer
switch in its own box.

While you know how your setup works, the
danger is when someone else tries to hook
it up for whatever reason.
 
(quoted from post at 13:15:47 04/17/18) We were lucky when we got this place. Power outages were fairly common then, so in rural areas such as this, the power company would install a meter housing that was also a manual transfer switch. No charge! Haven't needed it yet, as haven't lost power since having a generator. ...Should have bought a generator years ago! *lol*

I could see doing that as also a cost savings for the utility.
Their insurance policy for employee health and life insurance was most likely reduced..........maybe.
 
> All of this crying and teeth gnashing from power companys, insurance, lawers, and on and on. Go on Utube and look at how wiring is done in third world S hole countries. Stuff looks as if a bunch of kids walked down the street with cans of silly string. As others have said they know what to shut off and know how and when not to touch something.

I've seen a worker wearing sandals operate a jackhammer in Egypt. But I'm not going to tell construction workers to trade in their steel-toed boots for flip-flops.
 
(quoted from post at 14:48:52 04/17/18) > All of this crying and teeth gnashing from power companys, insurance, lawers, and on and on. Go on Utube and look at how wiring is done in third world S hole countries. Stuff looks as if a bunch of kids walked down the street with cans of silly string. As others have said they know what to shut off and know how and when not to touch something.

I've seen a worker wearing sandals operate a jackhammer in Egypt. But I'm not going to tell construction workers to trade in their steel-toed boots for flip-flops.
o true! And, if memory serves, this gets re-hashed every time there is a storm or power outage!!!!! If only texting while driving got so much attention!!
 
My dad was a lineman for 47 years. I was a lineman for 5 years. Both of us for Public Service Electric and Gas. Neither one of us ever heard of an actual case of a lineman being killed due to someone "backfeeding." Seems you know of many? Please cite an actual example. I will also note that as a lineman following our own company guidelines - such an event was impossible.
 
I agree, with proper practice this can't happen, the utility company around here has stickers that say ground it cold or work it hot there's no in between. It's exactly true, until it's grounded it's live.
 
(quoted from post at 15:54:35 04/17/18) My dad was a lineman for 47 years. I was a lineman for 5 years. Both of us for Public Service Electric and Gas. Neither one of us ever heard of an actual case of a lineman being killed due to someone "backfeeding." Seems you know of many? Please cite an actual example. I will also note that as a lineman following our own company [b:7180d8f1b3][i:7180d8f1b3][u:7180d8f1b3]guidelines[/u:7180d8f1b3][/i:7180d8f1b3][/b:7180d8f1b3] - such an event was impossible.

Only guidelines???
As in "we reccomend" but we do not require???

A [u:7180d8f1b3]guideline[/u:7180d8f1b3] is not a [u:7180d8f1b3]rule[/u:7180d8f1b3] ya know.
Just like a [u:7180d8f1b3]code[/u:7180d8f1b3] is not a [u:7180d8f1b3]law[/u:7180d8f1b3], right?
 
(quoted from post at 03:34:11 04/17/18) Just how does one go to "trial" when no law has been broken?

I don't know whether or not this back feed thing is a real problem.

However, if it is, I think Double 07 eluded to another law that might come into play if something went wrong.

I, like Old-9, would not want to be sitting in the defendant's seat,
if some lineman got injured or killed by back feed from my incorrectly wired generator.
 
I could be totally off on this, and I hope that someone with more knowledge will chime in if I am.

When I've seen linemen going to work on a power line, they have had a long rod that they'd clamp to the wire that they were working on. If the work is on their right side, the ground would be on their left. My understanding is that these power lines "can" sometimes build up quite the static charge from wind blowing across the wire, or maybe just any lines that are insulated. It should also work on sending any stray current, such as from a generator, straight to ground so that current never reaches the lineman.
 
Don't care what all the experts say. But after forty five years in the business. I can assure you it is a problem. Feeding power back
into the system. It is not the same as back feeding power into a house. I have seen places that I have walked away from. Told the ones
involved to call be when they corrected all their mistakes.

I had to repair a 15 RDJC two years ago. Two thousand in damage because the gut knew what he was doing.
 
Well and good but they have to be installed. So jo blow gets a wind turbine installed in his yard and sells the excess electricity back to the PC...........did he or didn't he?????
 
(quoted from post at 08:59:50 04/18/18) Well and good but they have to be installed. So jo blow gets a wind turbine installed in his yard and sells the excess electricity back to the PC...........did he or didn't he?????

If he or you or I want to sell excess power back to the utility, the power company won't even come out to install the proper meter until your local building/electrical inspector lets them know all is good to go downstream from the their meter.
 
I did not save these safety brochures. One case I remember I said the " although the lineman had fuzzed the line with his pliers" [something I never heard of ] killed due to a backfeed from a mall transformer.
 

They are not condoning backfeeding their grid! If you open your main breaker you are not backfeeding the power company, only your house. They likely figure (correctly) that people will run generators anyway without transfer switches so they are trying to tell folks how to do it without killing the lineman.
 
Billy NY; This isn't electricity related, but it's what I consider to be an example of acknowledging reality: The maximum freeway speed in California is 70 mph. Two years in a row I've been amused by warning signs on I-10, the main highway between L.A. and Phoenix, advising drivers to slow to 70 for an upcoming curve.

Stan
 
Let me go against common wisdom here. Suppose I try to backfeed at my location without switching the transfer switch, pulling breakers, pulling meter or whatever you do to disconnect from the grid... With all the appliances connected up and down the line in the neighborhood, my generator would turn about half a rotation before stalling and/or blowing it's internal breakers. In short backfeeding into the system wouldn't happen. To my generator it would look like a dead short. This is not to say I am going to try. My generator doesn't get fired up unless all main fuses are in my pocket. But I question whether backfeeding would happen really.
 
Stephen; Driving on about 60% of I-10 is probably already known to the State of California to cause cancer---certainly desperation and occasional road rage. To get home from the Salton Sea, I drove hundreds of miles out of my way to avoid the west end of it.

Stan
 
This could be true, but might not be. Depends on where the linemen are working.

Around here, there are usually several miles of cable between farms. Add in hunting cabins that are normally empty, but "could" have someone there with a generator at any time of the year. ...Had a guy move into his hunting cabin for a while after his wife kicked him out. *lol*

I can't speak from experience using gensets, getting shocked or from being a lineman, but I had the opportunity to discuss the transfer switch with my local guys some time back. They said one of the reasons they install the manual transfer switch automatically is to prevent feedback dangers. If [i:7fabac8198]they're[/i:7fabac8198] afraid of feedback, then that's good enough for me!
 
No foolin' I installed a standby generator 18 months ago. Since then no power outages.
 
(quoted from post at 06:28:34 04/20/18) No foolin' I installed a standby generator 18 months ago. Since then no power outages.

You should of only bought one of those stationary bicycles with an alternator on it for you to pedal.
Would have been cheaper, LOL.
 
You need to look up backfeeding and read about the linemen that have been zapped or killed by somebody being stupid and not disconnecting from main line before running generator.
 
(quoted from post at 17:54:58 04/19/18) Let me go against common wisdom here. Suppose I try to backfeed at my location without switching the transfer switch, pulling breakers, pulling meter or whatever you do to disconnect from the grid... With all the appliances connected up and down the line in the neighborhood, my generator would turn about half a rotation before stalling and/or blowing it's internal breakers. In short backfeeding into the system wouldn't happen. To my generator it would look like a dead short. This is not to say I am going to try. My generator doesn't get fired up unless all main fuses are in my pocket. But I question whether backfeeding would happen really.

Backfeeding to the grid would throw a massive jolt into the line before it stalled your engine. That can kill.
 

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