Bulldog Electrical Panel

This is an original 1930's Bulldog Electrical Panel in a non-profit group's building that I do most of the maintenance on. The insurance company has decided they don't like this, and want us to replace it with a breaker panel. So its on my list of projects for the spring. I have a few random thoughts on this project and just thought I'd see if there was any other input or ideas. Also have a major question, but first......As you can see, this panel is fed thru the trough on the right. I'm intending to do the following: feed the new panel thru a short piece of inch and half conduit on the right side that will extend into the trough for a few inches; install the new panel at a height where the bottom of the panel is the same as the existing bottom so the cables are the right length. I've got 13 BX cables entering the box from the bottom and 3 from the top. Any of the 13 that I don't have room for on the bottom will have to go thru a junction box so I can extend them up to the sides; Same thing for the 3 on the top. Will take them into junction box and run new extensions;
So the big question is ground. First a bit of background on the building set-up. The feed comes into the building to a disconnect box. From this box the cable runs to a large metal cabinet in the hallway (about 2ft by 4ft) where the meter is located. The trough runs from this cabinet and feeds this main panel and a few other disconnects. The only ground is an old bare copper cable connected from the main disconnect box to nearby plumbing. (there used to be a toilet under the disconnect!)
The old panel is ostensibly grounded by its soldered connection to the trough, and metal to metal contact is maintained back to the main disconnect through the trough and conduit.
All of the cables in the fused panel are two wire BX; there are no ground wires.
Now most folks will probably say we need to go back to the beginning and run a new ground at the main disconnect. But this is on the 2nd floor of a old building with concrete floors, and its probably not going to happen.
I was thinking of running a piece of #6 ground wire from the new panel and tying it down back in the trough; this will emulate what happens now.
Thoughts?

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Would it be possible to run a ground wire through an exterior wall and down the side of the building to an external ground rod? I think this is what I would try to do. Is the insurance company alright with the existing conduit providing the ground to the outlets? You wouldn't know if it was installed correctly or someone has cut it somewhere over the years. I would think each line would have to be tested for continuity.
 
Long term, that's kinda my plan for a new ground. Insurance company has never checked anything or looked closely. They only see the fuses and
tell us they don't want fuses.
 
Old BX is not accepted by NEC as a ground unless it has a conducting strip or wire embedded when new. So I would not accept the job in either a residential or commercial building unless the bid was to rewire the entire building correctly and to code with inspections. Both arc and Ground Fault protection to be in the bid. The "patch it in" approach opens many failure points and potential liability issues
 
I can understand why the insurance company doesn't like fuses. While if used correctly they are safe sometimes if someone is having trouble with a fuse blowing will replace the fuse with a larger one. They see the fuse as the problem instead of inadequate wiring.
 
How many circuits are actually in use?

Many times I have found a lot of dead end circuits in old buildings. Now might be a good time to completely start over, surface mount everything in EMT, get it as close to code as possible.

Trying to reuse any of those circuits will be a real mess, especially since you don't really know what is going on behind the walls. Disturbing the old insulation can also complicate the process.
 
That is a fire waiting to happen.

Bottom line, does the location require electrical inspections, if so it does not matter what we say.

I personally would not want the liability to do this for an organization, best to raise the money to pay a licensed, insured contractor to do this.
 
I don't care for anything I see and some of what I read here. I think you are opening yourself up to a boatload of liability, if you do this. A professional has the experience and the liability insurance of something goes wrong. I worked with an electrician on our house and re-doing its electrical system. We talked through what we thought was going to be best for our needs. We increased the load center from 100 amps to 200 amps. I was able to save some money in my being able to take out the old wiring and the electrical panel itself. This was something I was comfortable in doing, and it was something my electrician didn't have to do, thus saving me his time. Our house was not powered for nearly 3 months, so I wasn't dealing with powered wires or service entrance. The electrician you work with may be able to use your help in stripping out the old and pulling in the new wiring, in essence you doing the more mundane tasks.......................or as my dad typically would say, "the idiot work." That was not intended as criticism, and I applaud your initiative to at least take something like this one. I just don't think you need to expose yourself to the potential liability.
 
Bottom line, if you do the work, there is an issue, you can be criminally and financially liable.
 
As both 2002sliverado and David G have pointed out, this isn't a job you should be doing yourself. Unless you are a licensed electrician (who is asking electrical questions on an online forum), I don't think you legally can. A homeowner can do electrical work on his own property, but that isn't your status here. The utility company and the electrical inspector for the building department may not be involved yet, but I don't see an insurance company accepting work that requires a permit but is done without one, and you are not going to get a permit to do work in a building that you don't own if you are not an electrician. I've seen people get away with some unbelievable work done without a permit, but I don't see that happening here. I see a situation that would probably lead to a lot of trouble and expense, some of which might be your personal responsibility.

Stan
 
Appreciate the comments. I knew this would gather some response. One of the reasons I posted it was because of the age of the equipment. You don't see many things like this around anymore, and old things are generally appreciated on this board.
Next, to clarify....No, I am not a licensed electrician. I have worked with electricians and done a lot of work myself, but its not my main field. I have had a licensed electrician look at it; he's a friend and is advising me as well, we just thought we'd put this out there and see if there were any other thoughts.
Yes, what is here is ugly. I've been involved here for a number of years here, but I've never done anything in this panel except avoid it. I'm just working with what's here. There are things going on inside this panel I would never have done, and they will be changed with the new panel. While the panel will probably come first, I've already told the owners that we have to do something about the ground wire system.
 
I don't know much simple dirt farmer, but I sure enjoy these threads.

I really think you will need a proper ground to earth, not just attached to a conduit.

Unless things changed the past decade, you can get by with not rewiring forward downstream, but the ground is a function of the new box itself and will need to be done proper, not 'close' to right.

Paul
 
You need to hire a licensed and insured electrical contractor to do this work.
 
You could use type S fuses, they have adopters that gives a small range of sizes, this prevents over sizing by very much, and a penny will not fit in.

The grounding is a worry.
I think that the old BX cable is just as big, or maybe bigger worry. If it gets a short in it can get red hot just like the old electric space heaters that looked like a stretched out spring.
 
I'd leave it to an electrician. Otherwise I'd run the ground back to the main to do it correctly. If that doesn't work, consider using grounding bushings, they even make split ones so you don't have to unhook the wires ahead of the panel.
 
You might tell that licensed electrician in our jurisdiction in my day and per the NEC we were required to properly Bond the incoming Neutral to all "readily available" "Grounding Electrodes" at EITHER the aerial service drop orrrrrrrrrrr the Meter Base orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the Main Distribution Panel.

Grounding Elecrterodes (to which all readily available the Neutral is to be Bonded) includes structural steel,,,,,,,,,,,buried metallic utility pipes,,,,,,,,,,buried Ground grids,,,,,,,,or "made electrodes" such as copper rods driven into mother earth.

I NEVER specified nor were we allowed armored cable to be used for a proper Equipment Grounding Conductor. It is in some situations provided all the proper bonding connections are used but many even professional electricians never got it right !!!!

Its safer to use a wire equipment grounding conductor NOTTTTTTTT the cable PERIOD

Its NOT what any electricians or engineer or even non electrical gents here may have to say, the answer depends on/ local authority and which if any codes they may or may not have adopted SO DONT BET THE FARM OR YOUR LIFE OR PROPERTY ON ANYTHING POSTED HERE BE IT LAY OR PROFESSIONAL

Soooooooooo my best professional advice is to consult a local competent trained professional NOT anything said here but its your life at risk not ours

John T Retired and NEC rusty power distribution design engineer so no warranty
 
Hmm. Won't the insurance company want to see an electrical permit and a signed-off inspection? At the very least, they'll want to know the work was done by a licensed electrician.
 

Public building in particular . Only with a permit from the local municipal office and work performed by a licensed contractor and to the latest code book regulations .
Can you afford to be sued ?
Poor does not give a waver to rules and safety.
What are the loads in this building?
 
As most have said that isnt work for anything less than a real electrician. Commercial applications are a far cry from working in one's home or barn from both code and legal standpoints. There are things that pass if not messed with but have to be brought up to current code IF messed with. My experience with such is limited to having the work done by professionals and in each and every case the panel will have to be installed to current code and that includes the feed back to the main panel, if things are not up to snuf there you fix that too. Heck you could end up starting over at the weather head as has happened to me because of one sub panel that was not in code.
 
My parents house had fuse pannels with screw in fuses. Insurance company busted their chops about them and there are now all breakers. Just love people who put a nice shinny penny in and screw the blown fuse back in. Lets a whole lot of smoke out doesn't it? How many of you folks have seen the smaller size screw in fuses? They are about 1/3 smaller in size. One girlfriend her parents house was from the late 20s and had some left over knob and tube wiring. That makes you hair stand on end.
 
David G; Why are you guessing that? You know why. But you're a nice person, and what's the point in insulting someone, anyway?

Stan
 
I Run into this crap on a daily basis.. I also have 25 employees and Insurance... The only advise I?ll give you is to hire it done by an electrical contractor and walk away.
 
Have you talked any of this over with your local building inspector? Ultimately the building inspector is the one who will need to approve and sign off on the new electrical panel.

It might be in the non-profit's best interest to pass the hat among the non-profit's supporters and hire a licensed electrician to replace the panel, get the necessary permits and have everything properly approved. Without that the non-profit risks having their future insurance claims denied.
 
(quoted from post at 07:14:48 04/05/18) Old BX is not accepted by NEC as a ground unless it has a conducting strip or wire embedded when new. So I would not accept the job in either a residential or commercial building unless the bid was to rewire the entire building correctly and to code with inspections. Both arc and Ground Fault protection to be in the bid. The "patch it in" approach opens many failure points and potential liability issues

Janicholson is telling you correct.

The only possible way around the problem is to use [b:ecfbeffa80]Edison Base Plug Fuse Circuit Breakers[/b:ecfbeffa80]. But [b:ecfbeffa80]this approach MUST BE APPROVED by your insurance policy holder[/b:ecfbeffa80].

It may help if you were to buy one or two and show the policy holder and check if they will approve them.


Our local hardware store charges around $11 each.


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In a small pickle here with electrical. 30+ year old Crouse Hinds breaker boxes that an apartment complex wanted all of the Main Breaker Load Center's replaced (25 total), They wanted to just replace the load centers and busbars to save time and money over replacing the entire breaker box.. Pickle is no one has nor can get new centers due to the age of the boxes.. So now we must come up with a plan to replace the entire boxes and I do not even want to hear what the residents will have to say about that deal.. :roll:
 
The screw in fuses they have would work fine. What worries the insurance company is someone screwing in a 30 amp fuse where it has 12 gauge wire or worse, jury rig it with no fuse at all. With an circuit breaker it takes more effort to change out the breaker with one that is incorrect.
 
David G; I think you misunderstood my statement. I meant that I agree with what you said, and I thought that you posed it as a guess so it wouldn't seem unfriendly. I thought the way you put it was pretty much perfect.

Stan
 

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