Would we be better off using a DC motor here?

Nilly

New User
My club is building a 1/4 scale utility tractor (around 800 lbs) and for the past couple of years we have been using an electric hybrid drivetrain. Our system has been a 32 hp gas motor powering a DC generator which we convert to 3 phase AC to power our independent wheel motors with an operating voltage of 72V AC. My question is would we be better off using a DC motor considering we don't require high speeds but need very high torque for our pulling competition.

The motors we are currently using are rated at around 40 ft*lbs at 5,000 RPM and go through a 31:1 gear reduction which we thought was plenty but when they start seeing a high load, the current spikes and faults out our controllers.

The first year we ran this system the controllers faulted out because we didn't limit the amount of current the motors could have, we changed the system this year to have a current limit so the controllers wouldn't fault out and it basically shut our motors off under a high load, I guess the question isn't necessarily which is better but is one more efficient under high load to make the most out of the current we can generate.

RPM: Our final drives have a 31:1 ratio so anywhere between 3000 to 5000 RPM, HP our gas motor is 32 hp so we sized our current motors to be 15 hp peak per motor so we could equal the power capability of the gas motor, Budget is hard to gauge, we have a decent amount of funding but sometimes companies sponser us or give discounts, Torque: we initially thought 1200 ft*lbs per wheel was plenty but now it is looking like we would need more around 2000 ft lbs per wheel to be able to compete with the other teams at our competition. The pull lasts maybe a minute or two maximum so we are pulling peak current that whole time but we have long rest cycles between pulls and events so the motor doesn't see prolonged current draw. We have a .66 F Capacitor in our system to smooth the DC current we provide to our controllers.
 
I think 15hp motors are part of the issue. Designing a hybrid system with 32 Internal Combustion HP
turning that into electricity at maybe 80% efficiency (on a good day) results in about 26 out the wires.
Control that with electronics, and maybe 10% goes away. The remaining 23hp then turns two motors at 90%
each and you have less than 20. If the motors are being used at less than rated RPM because of load,
they are much less efficient than that, and can draw massive current. Maybe using a pair of 10hp motors
on that are geared to run at least 75% of rated speed at maximum load, would do more adequately. You
really need to deal in watts and not HP. You need an electrical engineer on the task. Jim
 
If you over current your motors before the
wheels spin, you do not have enough gear
reduction. In a mechanical drive, you stall
the engine when this happens.

I assume you are pulling a transfer sled.
As long as it is not a drop pan sled, speed
is irrelevant, you need maximum torque to
the ground.

Making a number of assumption, but I would
be looking for a max ground speed of about
3 mph. 100:1 reduction with 18 inch tires.
 
IIRC there are only 2 sources of power that can provide full torque at start up. Steam power and DC power. So I'd say switch over to DC.
 
Perhaps 15 HP motors, but at what RPM? Motors can have
base speeds of 3600 to 900 or lower.
And you CAN get full torque from AC motors with a VFD.

If you need 2000 lb-ft at the wheel, that is 65 lb-ft (with no
losses) at the motor shaft. Using that torque, a 1150 RPM
motor needs to be (65x1150)/5250 = 14.23 HP to give you that
torque at the wheel hub.

Even better would be a 900 RPM motor.
 
(quoted from post at 22:40:15 01/17/18) My club is building a 1/4 scale utility tractor (around 800 lbs) and for the past couple of years we have been using an electric hybrid drivetrain. Our system has been a 32 hp gas motor powering a DC generator which we convert to 3 phase AC to power our independent wheel motors with an operating voltage of 72V AC. My question is would we be better off using a DC motor considering we don't require high speeds but need very high torque for our pulling competition.

The motors we are currently using are rated at around 40 ft*lbs at 5,000 RPM and go through a 31:1 gear reduction which we thought was plenty but when they start seeing a high load, the current spikes and faults out our controllers.

The first year we ran this system the controllers faulted out because we didn't limit the amount of current the motors could have, we changed the system this year to have a current limit so the controllers wouldn't fault out and it basically shut our motors off under a high load, I guess the question isn't necessarily which is better but is one more efficient under high load to make the most out of the current we can generate.

RPM: Our final drives have a 31:1 ratio so anywhere between 3000 to 5000 RPM, HP our gas motor is 32 hp so we sized our current motors to be 15 hp peak per motor so we could equal the power capability of the gas motor, Budget is hard to gauge, we have a decent amount of funding but sometimes companies sponser us or give discounts, Torque: we initially thought 1200 ft*lbs per wheel was plenty but now it is looking like we would need more around 2000 ft lbs per wheel to be able to compete with the other teams at our competition. The pull lasts maybe a minute or two maximum so we are pulling peak current that whole time but we have long rest cycles between pulls and events so the motor doesn't see prolonged current draw. We have a .66 F Capacitor in our system to smooth the DC current we provide to our controllers.

What is going on at the front end ? Gas engine has the governor open how far ? Current and voltage from the DC generator at various amount of load .
As previously stated more gear reduction is required .
A DC motor lacks the rpm range of an AC motor. Unless it is a big $$$ brushless DC motor.
Is the controller set up to trip at a set max current level? Or is it using thermal protection which will allow monentatry overloads .
 
Hello janicholson,

Isn't that the same think.? 746 watts = 1 H.P. Use either one!

Guido.
 
True, but computing electrical devices that have spec plates in electrical terms will be the best approach. Electrical technology doesn't easily calculate in Hp. Jim
 
I am curious why you do not generate 240 VAC 3 phase and skip all the shenanigans.

I also think getting motor speed up with changes in gearing is desirable.

Your conductor sizes go down with raising voltage.
 
Hello janicholson,

I am not sure what you mean about Electric technology? Electric power is volt times amps or watts. Any generator producing electrical energy, regardless of source, from steam to solar, is rated in power output volts times amps. Like I said 746 Watts = 1 h.p. So 1/10 h.p. is 74.6 watts. That is all I was saying.
Either watts of H.P. can be used to state a unit's capacity,

Guido.
 

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