Electrical question

JOB

Member
I had a friend tell me her father accidentally electrocuted a dog with a single 12 volt car battery, she did not say how. With my experience with car battery's I would say that is not possible. The question is, is it possible to electrocute say a medium sized dog with 12 volts?
 
JOB,

The amperage of a12 volt battery far exceeds what it (a few-one thousandth of an amp) would take to stop a heart.

Math, physics, rhetoric aside, I fell bad for the animal.

D>
 
(quoted from post at 20:03:13 08/15/17) I had a friend tell me her father accidentally electrocuted a dog with a single 12 volt car battery, she did not say how. With my experience with car battery's I would say that is not possible. The question is, is it possible to electrocute say a medium sized dog with 12 volts?
ery, very unlikely! Stories abound!! If you implant an electrode or two in just the right places around the heart or brain, yes, but that certainly would not be an accident. Call mythbusters....it will be "Busted".
 
Dennis, David, I know the cold cranking amps are up there and I have handled hot 12 volt wires without getting a tingle. could I ask what kind of a situation would it take to get a shock or electrocuted?
 
Maybe the dog lifted a leg on it. Good conductor to internals. It all depends on the resistance. Always wondered how on TV and movies someone is tortured with a car battery and jumper cables. Of course in Hollywood it only has to look dramatic.
 
It is all about resistivity, 12V can kill you.

I = V/R

I have never seen it, but in theory, it is possible.
 
IF the electrodes were placed on interior wetness, probably 135 milliamps through the heart or brain. But skin has high resistance Dead cells and dry. Blood is a very good electrolyte. Jim
 
Story sounds a bit thin to me. Is it technically possible to electrocute a dog with a car battery? Yes. Is it probable that someone would ACCIDENTALLY do so? NO!

The most likely scenario is that Rover's exit from this vale of tears was expedited by Pops. And the "accidental electrocution" story is a little less incriminating to Dear Old Dad than the actual circumstances of the hapless dog's departure.
 
INTERESTING you took the time to post this here, but didn't take a few seconds to ask your "friend" how this "accident" may have happened, IMHO.
 
I work in a small engine shop. I have my hands on 12v. batteries almost every day. I have never even felt a tingle from one.

I would think it would take some creative engineering to kill a dog with a 12v. battery.

The other guy is probably right-That is a story that conceals the actual way Rover met his demise.
 
Bob, this is a female friend, and her dad supposedly did this back in the 1960's. She did not know exactly how it supposedly happened. when I told her that I did not think it was possible she went ballistic. She tole me her dad was an electronics technician in the Navy. And he worked at Florida Power as a electrician. I am not sure how related the two trades are but being an electronics technician does not make someone an electrician. I am sort of trying to get information to settle a disagreement. She said I called her dad a liar and she is upset. Her dad has been dead for over 15 years and it probably wont work to dig him up and ask him how it happened.

But it looks like there are some yes and no's on here
 

Resistance to entrenched attitudes is useless :D

This is from a Darwin Awards website ,
http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html

I do recall but unfortunately cannot reference the sad case of a middle aged man performing '' auto stimulatory '' experiments with a 9 volt battery in his bath tub . He was found deceased some days later , a lonely death from an unlikely cause .
 
Mark, you can read my reply to Bob above. I know you are an electrician and know what you are talking about. But could you sort of tell me how it could be technically possible.

Supposely pops felt really bad after rover met his demise.
 

As a further footnote I have just remembered an incident from my youth, well over fifty years ago now .
A friend's father was a motor mechanic who ran his own garage , he had problems with stray dogs peeing on the wheels of cars he had in his yard .
My friend and I were mucking around with a small engine when we saw a dog succumb to the ' trap ' the mechanic had set . It collapsed after getting a jolt while relieving itself on a back wheel .
We ran over and dragged the dog away and in doing so must have restarted its heart as it promptly staggered away .
The power came from an old truck battery , but I have no recollection of the circuitry involved .
 
Charles, as MarkB said, Is it technically possible to electrocute a dog with a car battery? Yes. Is it probable that someone would ACCIDENTALLY do so? NO!
Your friends
father wired the hub cap intentionally. That poor dog should have shut off the stream at the first jolt.

I heard something similar years back. Don't know if it is true though. some guys were wetting down a manhole cover in a alley somewhere and it was stinking quite well so
someone wired it to 110 to discourage the culprits. I think there would be some other electrical issues if what I just typed was true.
 
I've been "tingled" by coming between the positive conductor and the body ground. More of a burning/sizzling feel, always when dripping sweat.

More of an annoyance, not pleasant, but far from fatal. No jolt or muscle contraction.

Now ignition coil, that will get your attention! But never heard of anyone getting hurt other than a knot on the head from jumping back!
 
I have seen studies that say it can be done if conditions are just right. But I know for a fact. If you drop a wrench across the post. It will make you hurt yourself and talk funny.
 
I did that one time and the battery exploded blowing the top completely off the battery. It got some acid on my clothing but I guess I wasn't in the wrong spot as I never got hurt.
 
Stick with 'liar' & just call it BS & move on....or agree with her and get a little.
 
JOB; I understand that the issue here is whether a 12 volt car battery could kill a dog, so I'm not suggesting this as an answer, but I'd like to point out that some people use the term "electrocuted" when what they mean is "shocked." More than ten years ago I got into an argument with my co-workers over the meaning of the word. (That was before everybody carried phones that could answer that kind of question.) Just last week I was reading an article online that said that Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones was once "electrocuted" when his electric guitar touched an ungrounded microphone onstage. However, it's possible that the writer meant electrocuted, not shocked, because Richards had no vital signs for a few minutes and people thought he was dead. He didn't stay dead, though. Or maybe he did. There's controversy about his actual status, even now.

Stan
 
> But could you sort of tell me how it could be technically possible.

Basically it's an Ohm's Law problem. It's pretty well established that it takes a few milliamps passing through the body to cause electrocution. Fortunately, our skin is a pretty good insulator (as is dog fur), so there's typically several million ohms of resistance between any two points on a person's skin. 12 volts across a megohm of resistance is only going to give you 12 microamps, maybe enough current for a tingle but not enough to be dangerous.

Now there are ways that resistance can drop. The most common is for skin to get wet or sweaty. Dogs don't sweat, but they sure like water. Another way is to penetrate the skin with electrodes, bypassing the skin resistance. But the resistance has to drop below a kilohm before 12 volts is going to be a serious hazard.

Besides resistance, the current path is a factor. Electrocutions typically occur when the victim's heart is directly in the current path. Getting shocked across both arms is very dangerous, even at relatively low current.

So, is it possible someone has accidentally electrocuted an animal with a car battery? Sure, even the most improbable things do happen; improbable doesn't mean impossible. But it would take a very rare combination of circumstances for it to happen.
 
> The power came from an old truck battery , but I have no recollection of the circuitry involved .

Back in the day, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trembler_coil">Model T coils</a> were commonly used to create booby traps.
 
I think we'd all agree that a person or a dog could easily be accidentallly killed by 120 volts AC without a lot of current, & some would have examples of how it has happened. So a car battery with a simple 12 VDC to 120 VAC inverter could have been the culprit here.
 
Batteries blowing up was always a bother with me. I have had many over the years. Had two 8Ds blow up in a room. I was safe because I was behind the generator. But I had a hard time hearing for a day.
 
Gotta love it, electrical and legal questions draw the most opinions me included. Here's the deal the studies I've see show it takes in the range of around 50 to 100 milliamps of current (Ive even seen 0.030 to 0.100 amps) in/through the heart to be potentially lethal (fibrillation??). That's why a GFCI trips out at only 5 or 6 milliamps. Nowwwwwwwwwwwww you have to look at Ohms Law to compute the resistance of the skin and hair and body and body chemistry and organs and moisture etc etc to figure resistance in ohms R = E/I that would permit lets use 0.050 amps flow at 12 volts. 12/0.050 = 240 ohms. The problem is most skin or body internals have wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more resistance to that, so while it may be theoretically possible to cause fibrillation in the heart of a dog or human Id say its unlikely. Also if the current is NOT in the heart area like hand to arm there's less chance of harm. Its current in the heart muscle that can cause the problem.

John T Long retired electrical engineer and rusty so no warranty
 
Even if it were connected to an AC inverter, or a buzz coil, or any other type connection, in order for the dog to have gotten zapped, there would have had to be a conductor for the dog to stand on, while the rest of the car was the opposite charge.

Just dropping a wire to the ground would be very unlikely to provide enough conductivity.
 
MY uneducated OPINION. Just an OPINION from my experience. A 12 volt car battery will not hurt you unless you drop it on your foot or get acid on you or your clothes. If you use the 12 volts thru some electrical device "ignition coil for example" it will bite you bad. I was in the local Auto parts store one day and someone brought in a car battery to have it checked, and the two geniuses were working real hard not to touch the terminals and commenting on how dangerous it was and I said the 12 volts won't hurt and they were adamant about how it could kill you. I said for a dollar I'll grab onto the to posts and prove it to you. One guy couldn't get his dollar out quick enough he was sure it would kill me. I wet my fingers and took hold of the terminals and they were amazed. I got the dollar.
I can feel a slight tingle when I touch phone wires that are about 45 volts or were years ago. I kind of jump when 120 AC sneaks up on me. But 12 volts from a car battery has never hurt me. But watch out for the acid.
 
(quoted from post at 20:22:45 08/15/17) Stick with 'liar' &amp; just call it BS &amp; move on....or agree with her and get a little.

Agreed. While with correct conditions its technically possible to zap the dog to death on a 12v battery, there is something missing to the story. Was there an old, high current, non clamped half wave battery charger hooked to the car battery? One that relies on load for crude voltage regulation and voltage averaging.. Non clamped, it could have high open circuit voltage, especially if a high current model.. Perhaps a box with an old selenium rectifier?

If the battery was internally open the unclamped voltage at the terminals could be high and 'bouncy' from half wave rectification.. Maybee dog got that? Maybee the 120v min cable was frayed or dog bit into the line cable.??

The easiest way i can think for a dog to get killed by a battery, is if its charging on a bench and it falls off on the dog!

Methinks the dog died, and dad just told his kid that fido got electrocuted as a cover story.

With dry skin I've never felt 12v. Sweaty skin, in a sensitive area between fingers with a frayed cable poking thru my skin? I think I felt a tingle once.

Jump up to welding and 28-32v, and yes, sweaty pants or gloves, and yeah, I cal feel enough to make me move and adjust position, etc.
 
KCM.MN, I started to watch the video but stopped after he said to hook the batteries in series. Wiring the batteries in series gives you 24 volts.
 
JMOR I am not sure I would want a little or a lot. I was in second grade with her back in 1958. She seems to have a short fuse.
 
Ira Hays drowned in 2 inches of water. But he was intoxicated. I know of another man that drowned in more water who was an excellent swimmer, he was unconscious.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys, I will sent my friend (or maybe former friend) some of the replies and she can make her own conclusion. I am sure she was right though.I am confused though because if it would take very unusual circumstances for it to happen that her father would feel so bad. He should not feel bad unless it was his fault.
 

Imho, I think the dog chewed on the 120vac power cord hooked to the 12vdc charger/car battery, killed the dog, and the explanation from dad to an 8yr old left her thinking the 12v battery killed the dog...
 
I have heard of a person getting a lethal jolt supposedly from a 12V battery. The incident happened years ago at a house just up the road from us. I do not know the particulars though other than he was trying to start the car. My guess would be it wasn't the battery that got him at all..........could be wrong. Some people seem to be more conductive than others. I once worked with a guy who bared the wires coming off an extension cord and could hold the hot in one hand and neutral in the other and claims he could not feel it. I know I would!
I work for the phone company, our power plant is 48VDC. I can grab the positive with one hand and neg with the other and not feel a thing. The power plant in my office runs at 440amps so there's lots of potential there. When I used to do outside work the only time I'd get a tingle is when it was raining out and my hands/gloves were soaked. But far as I know it's never killed anyone.
 
In a nutshell 12 Volts is not enough potential (voltage) to draw any dangerous amount of current through the animal tissues that will cause fatality. Put 12 volts across your tongue like everyone has with a 9v battery and it will tingle like 30% more.
 
(quoted from post at 16:18:34 08/16/17) I have heard of a person getting a lethal jolt supposedly from a 12V battery. The incident happened years ago at a house just up the road from us. I do not know the particulars though other than he was trying to start the car. My guess would be it wasn't the battery that got him at all..........could be wrong. Some people seem to be more conductive than others. I once worked with a guy who bared the wires coming off an extension cord and could hold the hot in one hand and neutral in the other and claims he could not feel it. I know I would!
I work for the phone company, our power plant is 48VDC. I can grab the positive with one hand and neg with the other and not feel a thing. The power plant in my office runs at 440amps so there's lots of potential there. When I used to do outside work the only time I'd get a tingle is when it was raining out and my hands/gloves were soaked. But far as I know it's never killed anyone.
tandard POTS across the country is 48VDC (about 1K Ohm source impedance) and people touch the phone lines all the time without incident for the last 100 years. Ringing is about 90VAC, and shocks, but not lethal.
The guy could have built an off the power line charger without isolation transformer &amp; those can kill, as alternately, the + and - on battery are at power line voltage!
 
(quoted from post at 13:18:34 08/16/17) I have heard of a person getting a lethal jolt supposedly from a 12V battery. The incident happened years ago at a house just up the road from us. I do not know the particulars though other than he was trying to start the car. My guess would be it wasn't the battery that got him at all..........could be wrong. Some people seem to be more conductive than others. I once worked with a guy who bared the wires coming off an extension cord and could hold the hot in one hand and neutral in the other and claims he could not feel it. I know I would!
I work for the phone company, our power plant is 48VDC. I can grab the positive with one hand and neg with the other and not feel a thing. The power plant in my office runs at 440amps so there's lots of potential there. When I used to do outside work the only time I'd get a tingle is when it was raining out and my hands/gloves were soaked. But far as I know it's never killed anyone.

Lets face it.. Over 90% of the population know as much about electricity as they do magic. Actually.. They probably know more about magic...
 

I went to see star wars in the theatre in 77, but I still havnt seen any death stars... Maybee they are allowed to put fake stuff in the movies ;)
 
(quoted from post at 20:05:51 08/16/17) If it's in the movies it's real...... right?
BSOLUTELY! Just like on CNN &amp; MSNBC &amp; the WP &amp; NYT! :evil:
 
The power plant in my office runs at 440amps so there's lots of POTENTIAL there.

The trouble with that theory is that electrical POTENTIAL is measured in Volts, NOT Amps.
 
Whole story sounds like BS but you would have the amps but not the electromotive force to do that at 12 volts. EMF being the old term for voltage { but that is that force].Not enough force. Maybe the guy didn't like his dog and soaked it in saltwater first . I don't know.
 
(quoted from post at 23:51:57 08/16/17)
The power plant in my office runs at 440amps so there's lots of POTENTIAL there.

The trouble with that theory is that electrical POTENTIAL is measured in Volts, NOT Amps.

You are correct, wrong term used here. That being said, you NEVER want to come close to it wearing things like wedding rings or other jewelry. But that also goes for car batteries.
 
Tell me about it.

I was once drilling a hole in the sheet metal on a stock car with a drill with a metal case. Somehow my wedding ring hit the hot post on the battery.

I made a few appropriate observations and had a nice burn around my finger. That's when I quit wearing my wedding ring in the shop. And my wife understood.
 
Yes, Model T coils were the cheap man's power source for an electric fence. Many years ago my Dad used one with a couple stands of barded wire around the sweet corn patch to keep the raccoons out.

JimB
 

Same friend's dad [ garage and dog ] hit the positive terminal with the band of his wrist watch , it welded on quick smart and caused massive burns.
On reflection that garage was a mecca of unusual goings on , wish I could revisit the past :)
 
(quoted from post at 21:36:35 08/18/17)
Same friend's dad [ garage and dog ] hit the positive terminal with the band of his wrist watch , it welded on quick smart and caused massive burns.
On reflection that garage was a mecca of unusual goings on , wish I could revisit the past :)
urns are not dead!
 

I can't really see your point Jmor .
No suggestion that a simple short could kill you was made . My comment was concerning a simple reminiscence prompted by Goose's post , nothing more . Besides the circuit was restricted to the wrist , one side to another via a stainless steel watch band with little resistance . No DC current crossed his body and consequently his heart .
Yes the burns were severe , I can still smell the burning flesh .
Frankly I find your comment and the use of an exclamation mark an over reaction .
 
Goose, I have never experienced this, But I was told that if a piece of welding slag, splatter gets on a gold wedding wing the person wearing it will have a burn mark all the way around his finger. Gold is a really good conductor.
 
(quoted from post at 05:25:23 08/19/17)
I can't really see your point Jmor .
No suggestion that a simple short could kill you was made . My comment was concerning a simple reminiscence prompted by Goose's post , nothing more . Besides the circuit was restricted to the wrist , one side to another via a stainless steel watch band with little resistance . No DC current crossed his body and consequently his heart .
Yes the burns were severe , I can still smell the burning flesh .
Frankly I find your comment and the use of an exclamation mark an over reaction .
oint? The post here had to do with the electrocution of a dog, not the burning of a man's wrist. "I had a friend tell me her father accidentally electrocuted a dog with a single 12 volt car battery, she did not say how. With my experience with car battery's I would say that is not possible. The question is, is it possible to electrocute say a medium sized dog with 12 volts?"" Note that he didn't ask if it were possible to run battery current through a watch band &amp; burn a man's wrist. Don't feel bad, yours wasn't the only non-responsive reply. :)
 

Some of the most interesting discussions come from divergences in a thread's direction . That is the nature of conversation and sharing of ideas and information .

Perhaps you should stick to watching yourself put one foot in front of the other and plod along your dreary way , it's probably what you do best .
 
and perhaps you need to tell all about boiling cabbage.... Seems like a most interesting topic related to dog electroution????
 
and perhaps you need to tell all about boiling cabbage.... Seems like a most interesting topic related to dog electrocution. ????
 
and perhaps you need to tell all about boiling cabbage.... Seems like a most interesting topic related to dog electrocution.
 

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