I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum, but I am going to toss the question out. I have been looking at generators. I have a large electrical load when it comes to my home and farm site. I have a 5 ton ground source heat pump for heating and cooling in my home. I also have 2 refrigerators and 3 chest type deep freezers. I have the other assorted electrical devices including a water heater and clothes dryer. My thoughts are to NOT tie the heat pump into this generator, because in a crisis, I could keep the home warm in the winter time with a LP gas fireplace to at least keep things from getting cold to the point of freezing. I want to have this generator fueled by LP gas because I have 1 large tank on the property and another coming. There are those air cooled engine powered generators, which do not seem to be quite as long lived as the liquid cooled units simply because the air cooled engines run at 3600 rpm, while the liquid cooled engines turn at 1800 rpm, and a liquid cooled engine should generally last longer anyway. There are those rated as "standby," and I believe there are others rated for longer use intervals and "prime power." We had an ice storm here some years ago and there were areas that were without power for a week. I tend to believe I would like to have one that turns on automatically, so we do not run into surprises if we are gone. I also like the benefit of the automatic control because of a sump pump we have in our basement. As I consider this potential for a week or longer run time, I would rather not have to be concerned about engine oil and filter service on a frequent basis either, in the event of an outage during the coldest part of the winters. There are numerous brands out there. There are lots of choices out there. Any thoughts that anyone would like to share on this topic?
 
I have a 20kW, it carries the house including well and AC, but I have gas furnace and water heater. I think the worry about 1800 RPM / 3600 RPM and air/water reliability is unfounded. I am lucky if I put 20 hours a year on my 3600 RPM air cooled generator. Now, I do think the brand does make a difference, so get recommendations on that. I have an automatic Generac, the original engine had oil leak from the factory and it took 2 years to get fixed, but the new one is going on 12 years. I would not get another Generac just due to how much trouble I had with warranty.
 
Well, now, life time may be "unfounded" in terms of ' it will last as long as you need it to', but overall, it should be perfectly clear that half speed means half wear. Just consider the cumulative piston travel for same number of operating hours at the two different speeds.
 
It sounds like you have thought through your needs rather thoroughly.

I bought a 20 KW Kohler whole house back up unit in 2014. It has a 1 L, 3,600 RPM Kohler air cooled V twin engine. I, too, considered the life of an air cooled engine driving a 2 pole 20 KW generator at 3,600 RPM in order to supply 60 HZ power even if my power demands were modest. My unit is propane fueled.

The alternative was a MUCH more expensive liquid cooled NG/propane/diesel engine driving a 4 pole generator at 1,800 RPM. Obviously, such units should last longer, but the operative term is "longer." How does one define "longer?"

Residential back up generators are intended to provide power for short periods of time until the utility company can restore power. Commercial units likely have much different parameters.

In my case, nearly all of the operating hours that have accumulated on my unit are "exercise" hours, even though, I have programmed mine to exercise every other week rather than the default weekly cycle, and I generally skip every other, bi-weekly exercise by turning the unit off before every other bi weekly exercise time (My unit can be programmed to exercise (20 minutes) weekly or bi-weekly. If I could program it to exercise monthly, I would. I consider more frequent exercise cycles to be wasteful of both fuel and operating hours. I do allow the unit to exercise bi-weekly in the most cold months of the year.

Given the operating conditions of my unit, I expect it to last beyond my lifetime, given proper maintenance. If, however, you expect your generator to operate for hours at a time and on multiple occasions, a more expensive water cooled unit might be appropriate.

I would suggest that you visit the Kohler and (gasp) Generac websites to start.

Dean
 
I would look at the load you have and decide what you NEED and what is a "nice to have". It will play a big part on sizing your generator. If you get a load that is going to be 10K you are going to want a bigger generator than that. The rule of thumb is you don't want to run your generator over 80% if its capability for long periods of time.

As mentioned before air cooled can last a long time but it isn't going to be one that you would get from a big box store. You need to take a look at your realistic use and one labeled prime power I think is probably going to be way overkill for what you are needing.

Make sure you get a generator that will provide clean power, with today's electronics frequency and voltage have a pretty good swing, but garbage harmonics on the power can wreck havoc. It can stop things from working because the little CPUs in things can't take that bad power. You will know if a generator has clean power or not because they brag about it.

Fuel is going to be a big concern, you are going to need to decide how long you want the generator to run and then base your storage needs on the size of generator. You also need to take into account during bad weather can you get fuel? I did a lot of research on this and found that if you have a propane generator and you are not a normal user of propane you might not be able to get a fill. The reason is that the propane guy is going to be taking care of his normal customers first during a bad outage because his supply is going to be limited as well. It does sound like you are though so probably won't be a problem. If you wanted to try natural gas you will need to check with your gas company to see if you have the supply and pressure available to feed the beast. I would also calculate the cost per day to run the generator as that could be a consideration for a different fuel type or a rethinking of the load/generator size.
 
A go at what "longer" can look like.

A bloke around here had around 58000 hours on a Lister set befor SWER line power arrived. (SWER = single wire earth return, very common in Oz).

IIRC early on in air cooled diesels in Oz some of the life problems were that you have to let the air cooling breathe, not recycle the cooling air in a shed without vents which you could with water cooling
 
What ever you buy stay away from Generac. I have been working on generators since 1968. I consider them to be the worst on the market. I would look at Kohler or Onan. I would look for an 1800 rpm water cooled unit.You need to have a total amp load test done on your house.Find out what you really need then go a little higher on the KW. If you need a 15 go with a 20. You always want a little more than you need. You might also want to look around for an older Kohler or Onan. Some good used ones on the market

Prime power is one made to run 24/7. Standby units can run a long time also. I had one that ran for 31 days. Before it ran out of oil and the safety shut it down.All depends on how you take care of them.
 
First condideration is just how much you are willing to lower your standard of living for a few hours or days. I usually don't get excited until power has been down for a few hours. Refrigeration, heat and water are the biggest concerns, unless you are running a commercial operation. I have a 4K and a 5k and either one will keep me going in an emergency. Yeah, switching loads around, etc. But I don't need to run everything all at once. When I do go emergency, first thing, everything not absolutely necessary gets unplugged. Then loads get rotated as necessary. Yeah, inconvenient, but I don't have a fortune wrapped up in equipment that may see only occasional use. Careful maintenance, good oil and storage, and even the air cooled models will probably outlast you.
 
(quoted from post at 06:49:28 07/28/17) What ever you buy stay away from Generac. I have been working on generators since 1968. I consider them to be the worst on the market. I would look at Kohler or Onan. I would look for an 1800 rpm water cooled unit.You need to have a total amp load test done on your house.Find out what you really need then go a little higher on the KW. If you need a 15 go with a 20. You always want a little more than you need. You might also want to look around for an older Kohler or Onan. Some good used ones on the market

Prime power is one made to run 24/7. Standby units can run a long time also. I had one that ran for 31 days. Before it ran out of oil and the safety shut it down.All depends on how you take care of them.

If I were using it as a home standby unit only I would not use a water cooled unit. The cooling system (my guess) has a life of 20 years max. The price of repairing it if the parts were available would more than likely send it to the scrap yard.
 
There's lots of surplus REAL diesel engine gensets out there for sale with low hours from hospitals and other critical apps. Probably for not much more than some screaming little homeowner grade genset you could find a REAL 1800 RPM diesel unit that will outlive us all for the use you intend.
 
Only problem with those bargain units is........you must be very careful what the output is. A lot of them are 240. 3ph and many others are 480 3ph. The 480 is almost impossible to use without transformers of pretty hefty proportions. At the Kinzer steam tractor show several years back a guy was trying to sell one that was Mint. Was a Very good price too. Was 480 3ph. and he took it home with him. Another thing is auto start gen sets really are ment for city gas. You can use propain but you better have a H... of a big tank. Several people around me now have shinny roofs. Solar pannels. Might be the best route anymore.
 
(quoted from post at 18:03:07 07/27/17) First condideration is just how much you are willing to lower your standard of living for a few hours or days. I usually don't get excited until power has been down for a few hours. Refrigeration, heat and water are the biggest concerns, unless you are running a commercial operation. I have a 4K and a 5k and either one will keep me going in an emergency. Yeah, switching loads around, etc. But I don't need to run everything all at once. When I do go emergency, first thing, everything not absolutely necessary gets unplugged. Then loads get rotated as necessary. Yeah, inconvenient, but I don't have a fortune wrapped up in equipment that may see only occasional use. Careful maintenance, good oil and storage, and even the air cooled models will probably outlast you.
Ditto on this. If you need a whole house backup that runs unattended and gives you total convenience -- that's fine but it will cost you. And if it's a professionally installed system you will want to buy a yearly maintenance contract with it. I spent $3500 alone for panel work and a 13kw that will run my furnace, well pump. etc. I have to manage the loads manually but I only have an outage maybe once per year and I'm rarely down more than a day.
 
(quoted from post at 18:20:16 07/27/17) Well, now, life time may be "unfounded" in terms of ' it will last as long as you need it to', but overall, it should be perfectly clear that half speed means half wear. Just consider the cumulative piston travel for same number of operating hours at the two different speeds.

Doesn't matter in the least . Neither a 1800rpm liquid cooled $$$ gen set or a 3600rpm gen set will wear out over 50 years of service on a residential electrical backup system .
This ain't a 24/7 application on a ship generating hotel power or propulsion .
 
(quoted from post at 10:21:01 07/28/17)
(quoted from post at 18:20:16 07/27/17) Well, now, life time may be "unfounded" in terms of ' it will last as long as you need it to', but overall, it should be perfectly clear that half speed means half wear. Just consider the cumulative piston travel for same number of operating hours at the two different speeds.

Doesn't matter in the least . Neither a 1800rpm liquid cooled $$$ gen set or a 3600rpm gen set will wear out over 50 years of service on a residential electrical backup system .
This ain't a 24/7 application on a ship generating hotel power or propulsion .
... Well, now, life time may be "unfounded" in terms of ' it will last as long as you need it to',...."
No need to paraphrase me.
 
I have a Generac 6500 watt portable generator about 12 years old and it has run flawlessly with never a problem. It will start on the first or second pull. Being disabled, I am getting a new 16kw Generac standby generator installed this summer. I know many people in the neighborhood who have Generac standby generators and none of them have ever had a problem. I have a 4 year old Dixie Chopper with a 27hp Generac engine and again, never a problem. I would highly recommend Generac products.
 
If you have an outfit that installs whole-house standby generators in your area, they will come out and do an analysis on your electrical system and recommend a generator size. It should be a free service if there is an expectation of a possible sale.
 
Several years back, I went with a Winco PTO generator and have never regretted it. We have ours mounted to a trailer and when the power goes out, we simply hook up to a tractor, plug in the cord, flip the main breaker off and the generator on and BAM! we have power for the whole house. Sure it isn't "instant" like a standby generator but only takes a few minutes to get it connected and it's also portable so I can move it around easily to where power is needed. One less motor to maintain too. If you go that route, you will need about 2HP for each kW of power generated. So 15kW will need a 30HP tractor, etc.
 
You have been very lucky. Had a guy call me the other day. Generac home standby unit. Seven thousand dollars. Three months old ten hours on it. Rod out the block. Told him I can't touch it being under warranty. He says Generac wont talk to him.
 
(quoted from post at 14:12:50 07/28/17) Several years back, I went with a Winco PTO generator and have never regretted it. We have ours mounted to a trailer and when the power goes out, we simply hook up to a tractor, plug in the cord, flip the main breaker off and the generator on and BAM! we have power for the whole house. Sure it isn't "instant" like a standby generator but only takes a few minutes to get it connected and it's also portable so I can move it around easily to where power is needed. One less motor to maintain too. If you go that route, you will need about 2HP for each kW of power generated. So 15kW will need a 30HP tractor, etc.

I have a PTO generator as well so I have diesel power and gas power options. Love it and I have used it more for remote power than anything else.

The original poster though wanted automated when they are away from home so I didn't suggest that option even though I think they are a great option for the right situation.
 
(quoted from post at 05:39:13 07/29/17) You have been very lucky. Had a guy call me the other day. Generac home standby unit. Seven thousand dollars. Three months old ten hours on it. Rod out the block. Told him I can't touch it being under warranty. He says Generac wont talk to him.

I can understand you have no luv loss for Generac I think there is more to the reason why...

I personalty have reasons to reject working on some cars for an example a damm Pontiac I think I lost my arse on every one I have ever worked on... Chrysler's are a close second :evil: EURO chit I wont even think about it I don't want the guy that takes on all comers to miss a chance at it...

Knock on wood other than a starter that was not shimmed correctly to the engine/flywheel I have not had one issue with my Generac.

My Uncles Generac. Its is scary it went up in smoke and the repair guy just happen to have what it needed with him... :SHOCK:

http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1296256&highlight=generac
 
(quoted from post at 21:46:46 07/28/17) I have not used my Winco 20kW PTO generator in 10 years, time to get rid of it.

just thinking... it would be hard to get 3600 rpm out of a tractor...

No, its 540 rpms and the gear box steps it up. So the tractor runs at pto speed all day.
 
The reason I hate Generac. Poor service,high parts prices,no warranty,rude workers.

I was at a nursing home in Glen Rose Texas. Generac man had just installed a remote alarm panel. Didn't test it.It was shutting the unit down. I was
sent out because the director knew me. Called Generac told them where I was at and the story. People on life support storms coming into town need
help. They ask for my dealer code. Told them I wasn't a dealer but a generator mechanic with thirty years in the field. Told them again the
conditions and need help.They told me to find a dealer and talk to them. Hung up on me.

Was asked by ATT to do a start up for them. As Generac told them it would be two months before they would have someone out. Did the start up
everyone happy. Generac found out voided the warranty.

I could go on for hours about Genajunk units.
 
If I was to install a generator myself it would be a Kohler. But since I am disabled and physically unable to do it I am hiring an electrical contractor to do the install. When I was working in the construction business I hired this contractor many times over a 30 year period and they always did quality work and provided great service. The owner swears by Generac so that's what is being installed. As I said previously I have great service from my Generac generator and engines.
 
The electrical contractor that rewired my panel was also a Generac dealer. Said they were junk and could not get parts for the one he owned that quit the first time he used it.
 
(quoted from post at 10:40:59 07/28/17)
(quoted from post at 10:21:01 07/28/17)
(quoted from post at 18:20:16 07/27/17) Well, now, life time may be "unfounded" in terms of ' it will last as long as you need it to', but overall, it should be perfectly clear that half speed means half wear. Just consider the cumulative piston travel for same number of operating hours at the two different speeds.

Doesn't matter in the least . Neither a 1800rpm liquid cooled $$$ gen set or a 3600rpm gen set will wear out over 50 years of service on a residential electrical backup system .
This ain't a 24/7 application on a ship generating hotel power or propulsion .
... Well, now, life time may be "unfounded" in terms of ' it will last as long as you need it to',...."
No need to paraphrase me.

I had not read your post prior to writing mine .
 
Thank you to all who responded to my inquiry. I have been contemplating this for quite some time and have been also thinking about what I may be able to do to bring down cost and possibly increase overall reliability for my needs. The one key power related issue that concerns me is losing power to my sump pump. I am really looking seriously at battery backup supplied power for that alone, which would suffice for the vast majority of power outages, which are relatively short. I am leaning towards a PTO powered generator since I have a tractor and fuel on site at all times. For the heating in the home, I am looking to installing a gas fireplace, which will at least keep things from getting cold to the point of freezing, and that gas fireplace will be placed in the basement where we can hold the heat generated there quite well in a family room, and also the water pipes only serving the first floor. There are no pipes going up to the second story floor in the house. Any extended power outage, I would certainly make it a point to be at home and could certainly get the tractor started to run the PTO driven generator.
 

My daughters 2 ton drew over 60 amps while spinning up the scroll compressor then settled to 5 amps at 240 volts on a 70F evening.
If a hard start kit was added to your 5 ton, the largest air-cooled gen-set should suffice.
While Generac is much better than they used to be.......I would still think Kohler,Cat/Onan or believe it or not, the 14Kw Chinese Champion.http://www.championpowerequipment.com/products/home-standby/
 

Here is something I posted on another site, I hope you can find it useful.

[b:34a071bf96]Should you have a PTO generator or not?[/b:34a071bf96]
You are going to get a lot of people who will tell you that PTO generators are the best and a lot who will tell you otherwise, it really depends on use case.

[b:34a071bf96]1. Model of usage[/b:34a071bf96]
What kind of power needs do you have? Are you one of those people who need to have power 24x7 or are you just going to need it for a couple of hours a day? If you need power all of the time a dedicated standby generator is better. You are not going to want to have a tractor running through the night if you can help it. While it will run 24x7 you ideally would want someone checking on it once in a while to make sure everything is OK. If you are going to use it a few or several hours a day and then have times you won't need power I think a PTO generator is a very cost effective way to get power. Some people obsess about having power all of the time and they want to not even know they are off of the grid except for a little LED that comes on and lets them know that the generator is running while others just need something once a day to run the refrigerator and freezer and other than that don't care the power is out. Most are in between but there is going to be delay hooking up the tractor and you are probably going to want to not even hook it up for a small power outage that lasts 30 minutes.

[b:34a071bf96]2. Need of tractor[/b:34a071bf96]
When the power is out are you going to need your tractor? This also falls into number 1 above. The tractor can't run the generator while you are out plowing snow, moving down trees or some other need. If you are OK with the power being down while you are using the tractor, if there is a need for the tractor, then it isn't an issue. Do you have more than one tractor? Maybe you have one that generates power while you are using the other. When I lived in South Dakota and the power was out after a blizzard, there wasn't any rush to plow the driveway to get to the road, it was going to take a few days for them to even plow the road and no where to go until then. Some places power goes out because of the grid itself and you won't have need of your tractor, or not very much during power outages.

[b:34a071bf96]3. Power requirements[/b:34a071bf96]
How much power do you need? PTO generators are a cost effective way to get a lot of clean power. People forget that with todays appliances and electronics that they want clean power. There are times when a HVAC unit won't run even though there is enough power but it isn't clean enough. Ovens, refrigerators and other things have microprocessors in them and they may or may not handle the power some generators put out. I always recommend to people to get a until that has "clean power". Power is considered clean if it has total harmonic distortion (THD) of less than 6% (<6%). The funny thing is with todays global market, lots of electronics can handle different voltages and frequencies, for example the power supply on the back of my PC can take power from 50-60Hz and voltage from 110-250v. It will automatically take care of it. I don't recommend running your generator different than the standard outlet specs of your house, I only bring up the example to show that THD is very important and it is glossed over by some generator makes even though I believe it is just as important as voltage and frequency in the context of home backup. If you were just going to use a generator to run some hand tools like a skill saw out in the field where there isn't power, then it isn't near as important. Those tools can take some pretty crappy power and run just fine. As a side note, most PTO generators provide clean power.

[b:34a071bf96]4. Ease of hookup[/b:34a071bf96]
How hard is it for you to hook up? Would you ever be away from home and your wife, daughter, son needs to hook it up? If there is a need of them to hook it up can they do it? Are there a bunch of things going to be in the way of the generator that need to be moved before you can get to the generator or can you back right in and hook up easily. My wife and son also love to drive the tractor so they wouldn't have any issues backing the tractor up and hooking up for example.

[b:34a071bf96]5. What do you already have[/b:34a071bf96]
Do you already have a tractor(s)? How are you setup for fuel? If you want a standby generator do you have a large propane tank or access to natural gas of the correct pressure? Natural gas generators are hungry machines and they need enough pressure to run. They can't just be hooked up to your existing line, you have to get with your gas company to find out if you have access to the volume and pressure needed before you buy a generator. Propane, do you have a large tank? How often do you get it filled? If it is only for the standby generator you might be low on the list of customers to fill since you are not a regular. I did a lot of research of people who had backup generators during major power outages and if you are not a regular propane customer then you might not get refilled if the power outage lasts that long. Gasoline doesn't store great but it has a lot of energy in a little package and there are known ways to keep stored gas fresh if you take the required steps. Diesel stores even better with more energy in a smaller package, though it also needs steps to keep it fresh and ready to use when needed.

[b:34a071bf96]6. Cost[/b:34a071bf96]
How much power do you need and does it need to be clean? If you are needing a lot of clean power the cheap big box store model isn't going to cut it. They are not designed for clean power and they don't always handle running hours and hours on end very well. If you look at the generators that are up to clean power with the amount that a PTO unit can put out, you are going to pay twice as much or more for a stand alone until with the same specs as a PTO unit. PTO units are pretty heavy duty and are rated from long hour usage up to almost prime (when a unit is considered to be prime power it can be used as your sole power source, 24x7, 365 days) If you get a standalone are you going to be OK with another motor to take care of? With a separate engine it needs to be run every so often and exercised to make sure the fuel doesn't gum up in it as well as keeping the generator end healthy and happy. You should exercise your PTO generator as well but a PTO unit is a little more forgiving, most people use their tractors all of the time so they are in good running condition. Even a standby unit that runs itself once a month from natural gas is going to still need care. People do say they hate the idea of putting hours on their tractor but I feel that is what the tractor is designed for. Very small diesel tractors are rated for thousands of hours before rebuild, say in the 5K range, now that is going to be very dependent on how well you keep up with your service intervals. But if you are crappy with your service on your tractor you are probably going to be crappy with your service on your stand alone and it isn't going to work well for you either. If you have a larger tractor you are looking at the 10K+ hours before rebuild. Point being 99.9% of the people with a PTO generator are not going to put a significant dent in their tractor service life.

[b:34a071bf96]PTO generators and where are they made[/b:34a071bf96]
This list is from what I have researched in 2015, things could change, maybe already have.

[b:34a071bf96]BaumaLight[/b:34a071bf96]
These generators are Italian heads made by Mecc Alte. They have clean power.
[b:34a071bf96]Harbor Freight[/b:34a071bf96]
Chinese made, unknown power quality
[b:34a071bf96]IMD[/b:34a071bf96]
These generators are Italian heads made by Sincro. They have clean power.
[b:34a071bf96]Northstar[/b:34a071bf96]
These generators are Italian heads, unknown make. They have clean power.
[b:34a071bf96]Voltmaster[/b:34a071bf96]
These generators are Italian heads, made by Mecc Alte. They have clean power
[b:34a071bf96]Winco[/b:34a071bf96]
10Kw and 15Kw, these generators are Italian heads made by Mecc Alte. They have clean power. Special note, these want 515 RPM at the PTO and not the standard 540 RPM. Your tractor might not make as much HP at the lower RPM which may or may not be an issue depending on tractor/generator/power draw sizing.
25Kw are made by Winco in the US, power is said to be clean but is measured at THD <8% which is outside of the definition of clean power. I would classify it as marginal.
Most others
If it isn't on the above list it is most likely made in China.

From the ones I could find of the major brands, pretty much all of the smaller generators are made in Italy or China. Mecc Alte and Sincro are very highly regarded European brands and make from very small to extremely huge generators. The American made generators seem to be in the larger sizes and power quality isn't always clean. Though the large sizes are more for running more industrial type of loads where a lot of times power cleanliness isn't as important.

Standard operating procedure is an American/Canadian company buys a gearbox and generator head, puts them together, creates their own little power distribution box to go on top of the generator head and sells it.

I hope this has helped a little, it turned out a little longer than I thought it would.
 
If I was going to run a generator a lot at only part load, less than half, then I would use an inverter generator.

Dusty
 

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