Ford 4000 1964 charging system, add altmeter

I have a 1964 ford 4000, 6V, that has the red light to indicate if the batter is charging. I want to add an amp meter and still have the red light. How do I go about installing the amp meter? This tractor has a 6 Volt Generator.
 
Not all that hard to do but would have to #1 have a place for it to mount then wire it in so the ignition switch was in line with the gauge
 
I did that. Wired it to the hot wire coming from the switch (key). But it didn't show charge or discharge. The needle didn't move. I can see it wouldn't show charge if the VR was working but it should at least show a discharge. I put on a rebuilt generator and polarized the generator.
 
(quoted from post at 15:58:59 06/15/17) I did that. Wired it to the hot wire coming from the switch (key). But it didn't show charge or discharge. The needle didn't move. I can see it wouldn't show charge if the VR was working but it should at least show a discharge. I put on a rebuilt generator and polarized the generator.
ot the correct place to wire it. It should be placed in the wire connecting the battery side of start solenoid to the Battery (B) terminal of voltage regulator. That was it sees everything in the way of current both going into battery & out of battery, except of course starter motor current.
 
That wiring harness is factory braided and I don't want to cut into that if I don't have to. Can I just run a separate wire from the switch to the VR battery connection with the meter in line in that wire. Wouldn't work the same? Sure do appreciate you expert help in solving this problem.
 

Install a voltmeter instead of the ammeter. If the generator is charging, it will show about 7.5 volts. You can tap off the positive battery post, output of the generator to get your voltage signal.

An ammeter requires the entire output of the generator passes thru the ammeter, so you have to install a 10+ gauge wire off the generator, thru the ammeter, and then to the positive post of the battery.

You'll have lots more issues with the ammeter than the volt meter. Stuff like needing to install a fusible link to protect the wiring harness if you reverse polarity a jump start.

To be honest, the red light tells you all you need about the charging system; when you turn the key to ON, power flows thru the light and grounds in the output lug/or nearby, of the generator. As soon as it starts charging, the 7.5 volts output will counter the key voltage and stop the current flow. So the light goes out with generator output

This isn't like oil pressure or coolant temp where you can really mess expensive parts up. Just leave it alone....
 
(quoted from post at 16:23:18 06/15/17) That wiring harness is factory braided and I don't want to cut into that if I don't have to. Can I just run a separate wire from the switch to the VR battery connection with the meter in line in that wire. Wouldn't work the same? Sure do appreciate you expert help in solving this problem.
o avoid cutting into harness, disconnect the yellow highlighted wire at the solenoid & at the VR and add the red wires to ammeter.
 
JMOR has it diagrammed correctly.

One other thing, the amp meter you use needs to be a low amp rating for a generator application.

If you use an automotive application made for a 100 amp alternator, you won't be able to even see it move.
 
Hello harold9735,

You should install a volt meter, powered by the ignition
switch, to monitor battery state of charge. Here is an
analogy for you. If you were eating, amperes would measure
how much you were eating, while volts would measure how full
you are. Ammeter is like an idiot light with a indicating
needle,

GUIDO.
 
Thanks everyone for your valuable information. Now I have another problem. It wasn't charging so I had the Generator rebuilt, still didn't charge so I replaced the voltage Regulator. Still didn't charge so in checking out the wiring and such I saw on the new VR a sticker that said it was 6V pos. ground. The hook up on the 6V battery is Neg ground. Starts good and run good with the Neg ground hook-up but won't charge the battery.
Questions: Do you think I fried the new VR by having the Neg. ground hookup? What would it do, damage wise, if I changed the battery to pos ground? Don' know if it would even start with pos ground. What do any of you recommend?
 
Most, but not all VRs will work pos or neg ground, but some may have shorter contact if used opposite the mfg recommendation. If the generator is not polarized to match the battery connection (pos or neg gnd), and you start it, this will often weld the VR's cut out contacts closed. If the rebuilder did not know that you were running neg ground, he may have polarized it wrong for your application. You should always polarize a generator prior to starting if is has been disassembled or changed to another generator.
 
Thanks JMOR,

I did polarize the generator and VR prior to starting. This is a new VR but probably after being installed is not under warranty. I will check that out. Some one told me to just file the contacts and it should work. The generator is putting out 6.5 volts so It must be a VR problem. I installed the amp meter and when I turn the key on it shows a slight discharge But will not show a charge when running.
 
(quoted from post at 17:49:15 06/23/17) Thanks JMOR,

I did polarize the generator and VR prior to starting. This is a new VR but probably after being installed is not under warranty. I will check that out. Some one told me to just file the contacts and it should work. The generator is putting out 6.5 volts so It must be a VR problem. I installed the amp meter and when I turn the key on it shows a slight discharge But will not show a charge when running.
.5 v is too low. Try jumpering F to A while running & monitoring that voltage & see if it jumps up. If yes, then use heavy paper to clean contacts, not file.
 
I see on the diagram that the G wire from the generator runs direct to the G on the voltage regulator . There is no G terminal on the VR only A F & B. However there is a wire attached to the mounting screw on the VR. That is some kind of ground to the chassis I think. Mine is now wired direct from the G on the generator to the negative side of the coil. I'm thinking someone tried to change this to a neg ground. When I got the tractor it was neg ground. Don't have a clue as to what needed to be done to change from the original Pos to Neg. other then the battery connection and polarize the VR/GEN.
 
(quoted from post at 11:59:43 06/24/17) I see on the diagram that the G wire from the generator runs direct to the G on the voltage regulator . There is no G terminal on the VR only A F & B. However there is a wire attached to the mounting screw on the VR. That is some kind of ground to the chassis I think. Mine is now wired direct from the G on the generator to the negative side of the coil. I'm thinking someone tried to change this to a neg ground. When I got the tractor it was neg ground. Don't have a clue as to what needed to be done to change from the original Pos to Neg. other then the battery connection and polarize the VR/GEN.
would ask that you be certain about that G wire to coil, because I can not see it running that way, regardless on neg or pos gnd. Batt connections and polarizing is all that is necessary. Some, for esthetics value will swap coil connections, but that is unnecessary, won't start or run any differently swapped or not.
 
I have a friend coming today to help me trace all the wiring. Looks like the wiring should come from the terminal block to the coil and then run to the distributor. Will also do the gen voltage test you recommended. [color=red:fb3dde325d]With the F and B jumped how do I probe to test the gen output (F to B)?[/color:fb3dde325d]

The tractor was originally built as a Pos ground. I don't know but was the gen built as a positive ground gen? Are you telling me that all I need to do to make it a neg gound is hook the battery up as neg ground and polarize the VR and Gen. This make since to me but I don't know much about the electrical system and can't find anyone local that does. Glad you are responding and helping me so much.
 
(quoted from post at 11:31:19 06/25/17) I have a friend coming today to help me trace all the wiring. Looks like the wiring should come from the terminal block to the coil and then run to the distributor. Will also do the gen voltage test you recommended. [color=red:c4d2521bc7]With the F and B jumped how do I probe to test the gen output (F to B)?[/color:c4d2521bc7]

The tractor was originally built as a Pos ground. I don't know but was the gen built as a positive ground gen? Are you telling me that all I need to do to make it a neg gound is hook the battery up as neg ground and polarize the VR and Gen. This make since to me but I don't know much about the electrical system and can't find anyone local that does. Glad you are responding and helping me so much.
es, pos gnd battery install and polarize by removing field connectio from VR and applying bAttery neg to gen field for one second and this sets residual magnetism in. Pole pieses so that gen will output neg voltage. When testing, measure batt neg or armature voltage.
 
I hate it that I am so much trouble but I want to be sure of what I am doing.

All the Instructions I can find for polarizing neg ground tractor VR is to jump from B to A (Gen), the instructions I got with the pos ground VR was to jump from B to F. Which is what I did and I got the spark. I didn't realize at the time the VR was for positive application. The battery is installed as neg ground. The points look good on the VR but maybe I damaged the VR not knowing the VR was for positive ground and I did a neg ground polarizing. The wire I said went from ground to the Coil actually goes from the coil to the hot terminal.

With the tractor running I can push in on the VR points and it does show charge. But it won't do that by it's self.

We tried to do a continuity check on the wires going from the Generator to the VR by disconnection them at the VR and testing each separate. However the checking separate from the gen to VR wires A to A, B to B, F to F we got continuity to all the wires. Checking continuity from A to A would work from A to F and B etc. With them being disconnected I would think I should only get continuity for the specific wire, A to A and not a to B.

I did replace some bear wires at the generator thinking I might have short. Didn't change anything.
Once again I really appreciate all you time and effort in responding to me questions.
 
"With them being disconnected I would think I should only get continuity for the specific wire, A to A and not a to B." true IF each wire is disconnected at BOTH ends.
 
Harold, with the tractor running, measure the output of the generator "G" terminal, sometimes also labeled "A", relative to ground. That is, black wire to chassis ground, red to generator armature terminal. If the gnerator puts out positive voltage, it's polarized for negative ground. If it puts out negative voltage, it's pos ground. If you want to use negative ground, hook your battery up that way, and jump positive battery voltage to the "G" or "A" terminal for two seconds and release. This can be done at the regulator, across the "B" and "G" or "A" terminals if it's easier. The tractor should not be running at the time. After that you should have a positive output from the generator, even if it's only a volt or so. If you still don't charge, jump the "F" terminal of the generator to ground; you will get all the generator can give. Check it at 2500 or 3000 rpm, that old 6V won't give much at idle. If the generator puts out well while full-fielded like that, but still won't charge without, replace the damaged regulator with one that is rated pos or neg ground. Yes they're available.
 
(quoted from post at 23:12:30 06/25/17) Harold, with the tractor running, measure the output of the generator "G" terminal, sometimes also labeled "A", relative to ground. That is, black wire to chassis ground, red to generator armature terminal. If the gnerator puts out positive voltage, it's polarized for negative ground. If it puts out negative voltage, it's pos ground. If you want to use negative ground, hook your battery up that way, and jump positive battery voltage to the "G" or "A" terminal for two seconds and release. This can be done at the regulator, across the "B" and "G" or "A" terminals if it's easier. The tractor should not be running at the time. After that you should have a positive output from the generator, even if it's only a volt or so. If you still don't charge, jump the "F" terminal of the generator to ground; you will get all the generator can give. Check it at 2500 or 3000 rpm, that old 6V won't give much at idle. If the generator puts out well while full-fielded like that, but still won't charge without, replace the damaged regulator with one that is rated pos or neg ground. Yes they're available.
"If you still don't charge, jump the "F" terminal of the generator to ground; you will get all the generator can give."
yep, Kevinthefixer, that will fix it alright....that is fix it by burning up the VR field contacts!
 
Will I fry the VR points if I polarize from [color=red:52c4aa1aa0]B to A[/color:52c4aa1aa0], or by connecting the Generator from[color=red:52c4aa1aa0] A to Ground[/color:52c4aa1aa0], or both?

These are two things I haven't tried yet,
 
Grounding the field terminal is what the voltage regulator does in order to create enough magnetic field for the armature to spin through. This is a standard diagnostic test, I still use it regularly, and it's never caused any damage.
 
(quoted from post at 08:27:23 06/26/17) Will I fry the VR points if I polarize from [color=red:40ba243f55]B to A[/color:40ba243f55], or by connecting the Generator from[color=red:40ba243f55] A to Ground[/color:40ba243f55], or both?

These are two things I haven't tried yet,
would not connect A to ground! B to A is ok.
 
(quoted from post at 08:41:13 06/26/17) Grounding the field terminal is what the voltage regulator does in order to create enough magnetic field for the armature to spin through. This is a standard diagnostic test, I still use it regularly, and it's never caused any damage.
have no doubt that it can be a 'standard test' on some generator systems, but not all machines are alike. Are you familiar with the system on THIS tractor? Ground the field on this one and you try to put the full capacity of the battery (hundreds of amps) thru contacts designed for about 2 amps. Not going to be pretty.
 
OK, I am not omniscient. That is a safe and standard test on every generator system I've ever seen, and that amounts to hundreds. Most automotive, to be sure, but a few (mostly Ford) tractor systems also, and most recently my Case. I've never seen a generator/regulator that excited the field with "hot" current at the field terminal, always grounded it. That's why polarization is crucial; the field winding takes power from the armature, generated by residual magnetism, the regulator grounds it to increase the voltage, when it gets to battery voltage it connects to the battery and starts reducing the field current so it won't overcharge. No reason you couldn't design it to use battery power to excite the field, but I'd think it would be more expensive to build it that way.
 
(quoted from post at 22:07:56 06/26/17) OK, I am not omniscient. That is a safe and standard test on every generator system I've ever seen, and that amounts to hundreds. Most automotive, to be sure, but a few (mostly Ford) tractor systems also, and most recently my Case. I've never seen a generator/regulator that excited the field with "hot" current at the field terminal, always grounded it. That's why polarization is crucial; the field winding takes power from the armature, generated by residual magnetism, the regulator grounds it to increase the voltage, when it gets to battery voltage it connects to the battery and starts reducing the field current so it won't overcharge. No reason you couldn't design it to use battery power to excite the field, but I'd think it would be more expensive to build it that way.
t is the difference between type 'A' ( internally excited/externally grounded) and type 'B' (externally excited/internally grounded. Ford tractors switched from type 'A' after the 8N, to type 'B' from the NAA until alternators came on the scene. Simply a matter of switching ground or switching power. Full field type 'B' by jumper Field to ARM. As you said, full field type 'A' by jumper Field to ground.
 
(quoted from post at 09:23:41 06/27/17) I stand corrected; guess I'm not too old to learn something.
suppose, just to mess with out minds, Ford used the type "B" gen & VR for the first 12,500 production in1938, then went to a 3 brush, manual output adjusted generator(s) using a simple cut out (no VR) from 1940-1947 until, the 8N (1948-1952) using type "A", until switching to type"B" again with the NAA in 1953. They were just having too much fun.
 
Well, the same people brought us the "Detroit" front end (translation: leave off the grease zerks). They were the last American auto manufacturer to abandon positive ground. I no longer remember what model, but it was a Ford tractor power steering cylinder that had the tie-rod built into the piston--and no grease zerk, big surprise that it wore out. And don't forget the Pinto.
 
With all this expert technical talk you guys are doing back and forth I'm a bit confused. I thought I knew what to do but not really sure now.

In reading all of this with negative ground I need to polarize by jumping from A to B on the VR.
To test the gen out put need the voltmeter test lead black wire on A and the red wire on B to read to voltage.

I have install and new VR but have not polarized or started the tractor yet. Don't understand the statement about jumping or testing from F to A.
 
The Battery is negative ground. I jumped from A to B to polarized the new VR.
Voltage test from A to B on VR shows 6V positive output from the Generator.
Red light still on. Raved the tractor up real high and the red light goes out but after about 30 seconds it come back on. Voltage test with engine raved up still shows 6 Volt output with red light out.

[color=red:e33cbbd67d]Is 6 Volt out put from the generator enough to keep the battery charging and red light off?[/color:e33cbbd67d]
 
Harold, it is no wonder that you are confused, since there was wrong info for your Type "B" system interjected into this thread. Too bad, but it happens that humans sometimes think that what they have experienced is a 'one size fits all' sort of affair.
Polarize as per the insert for your Type "B" (internally grounded/externally excited system.
Best place to measure charging voltage is at battery terminals, red meter lead om battery + and black meter lead on battery -.
If you want to measure generator alone, red meter lead to chassis ground and black to Armature terminal on barrel of generator.

polarizing_pictorial_2.jpg
 
Good diagram. So I just disconnect the wires from the F and the B on the VR and touch them together and then reconnect. Should I still get a spark?

Up to now I have been jumping the terminals with the wires connected to the VR.I can't just jump from F to B with the wires connected to the VR.

Hope I didn't damage the VR by jumping from B to A for neg ground.
 
(quoted from post at 13:18:03 06/29/17) Good diagram. So I just disconnect the wires from the F and the B on the VR and touch them together and then reconnect. Should I still get a spark? [color=red:32ae2f9541]yes, small spark
[/color:32ae2f9541]
Up to now I have been jumping the terminals with the wires connected to the VR.I can't just jump from F to B with the wires connected to the VR. [color=red:32ae2f9541]no, you don't want field contacts trying to carry 30 times rated current![/color:32ae2f9541]

Hope I didn't damage the VR by jumping from B to A for neg ground.
color=red:32ae2f9541][/color:32ae2f9541][color=red:32ae2f9541]B to A should cause no damage[/color:32ae2f9541]
 
I polarized for a type "B" VR per instructions. With the tractor running I get a positive 6V at the battery post. I also get positive 6V with black lead on A and red lead on B. I don't get anything from A on barrel of generator to chassis ground.

Maybe my rebuilt generator isn't putting out anything and all the readings I'm getting are coming from the battery.

Does this sound logical?
 
(quoted from post at 15:00:35 06/29/17) I polarized for a type "B" VR per instructions. With the tractor running I get a positive 6V at the battery post. I also get positive 6V with black lead on A and red lead on B. I don't get anything from A on barrel of generator to chassis ground.

Maybe my rebuilt generator isn't putting out anything and all the readings I'm getting are coming from the battery.

Does this sound logical?
pparently gen has no output. yes, voltage readings are result of your battery, not generator.
 
Here is the latest.

Took the Generator off and had it bench checked.[color=darkred:6782bd6ac8] Putting out 8V at 23AMP[/color:6782bd6ac8]. It was polarized as Positive, had it changed to Negative. Didn't work light would not go off. Took the VR and Gen back to the shop and had both checked and mated to Positive ground. The VR was not set up of be Pos. or Neg, it is Pos. only. Switched the battery to positive ground.

Reinstalled the Generator and VR. changed battery to Positive ground. Light now will go off for about 30 seconds then comes back on again. [color=red:6782bd6ac8]It does this on and off, won't stay off. Maybe it is supposed to do this, I don't know.

[/color:6782bd6ac8]Still getting 6V at the F and B terminals on the VR (must be coming from the battery) Don't get anything from the F to ground on the generator with tractor running. I have checked and replaced some of the wiring. It all look good now. I think I am running out of options.
 
"Still getting 6V at the F and B terminals on the VR (must be coming from the battery) Don't get anything from the F to ground on the generator with tractor running." Well, there should be nothing but a wire between the VR Field terminal and the generator Field terminal, so if you have voltage at one end of the wire & not the other, either you are not looking at the same wire or the wire is broken.
 
I did a continuity check on all the wires disconnected at both end. Checks OK. I also ran a separate test wire from the Gen F to the VR F and the Gen A to the VR A. Still the same 6v coming from the battery.

What I can't understand is why the Generator bench tests at 8 Volts but I can't get anything testing from the Generator A to ground.
 
(quoted from post at 17:05:37 06/30/17) I did a continuity check on all the wires disconnected at both end. Checks OK. I also ran a separate test wire from the Gen F to the VR F and the Gen A to the VR A. Still the same 6v coming from the battery.

What I can't understand is why the Generator bench tests at 8 Volts but I can't get anything testing from the Generator A to ground.
ECAUSE you do not have 6v on generator Field
 

OK, but the question still is why can't I get any thing at all with the generator installed on the tractor? It bench test at 8V output. Is there a way to test the generator output while installed on the tractor? Someone told me to check the voltage from the A terminal on the generator to chassis ground. That gives me nothing.
 
When you measured 8v on ARM on the bench, what was on the field connection? What wire from where & what voltage?
Another question: on the drawing showing how to polarize, the VR terminals on one read left to right as A-F-B and on the other as B-A-F.........how do they read on your VR?
 
Don't know how it was wired on the bench test. I know it was set up as positive ground with 6V. I did see the gauge and it was reading 8V with 23 amps. There were leads coming from the Gen A and F fields to the test setup machine.

My VR reads from left to right A=F-B. It would seem to me that the only possible connection is Gen A to VR A, Gen F to VR F. There is also a G marked on the Gen. I think that is a ground that goes up to the VR. The VR B terminal goes to the solenoid.
 
(quoted from post at 20:51:08 06/30/17) Don't know how it was wired on the bench test. I know it was set up as positive ground with 6V. I did see the gauge and it was reading 8V with 23 amps. There were leads coming from the Gen A and F fields to the test setup machine.

My VR reads from left to right A=F-B. It would seem to me that the only possible connection is Gen A to VR A, Gen F to VR F. There is also a G marked on the Gen. I think that is a ground that goes up to the VR. The VR B terminal goes to the solenoid.
HE problem that I see on the tractor is that you do not measure the same voltage at both ends of the same wire, that is, at VR Field and generator Field. Something is wrong there.
 
[qote="JMOR"](reply to post at 18:39:15 06/30/17) [/quote]I am testing from A on Gen to A on VR and from F on gen to F on VR. I am also checking A on the Gen to Chassis ground. I did a continuity check on the wires and they are connected properly.

This is getting kind of confusing. I am going to start a new discussion strictly on this problem.
 

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