Solar electric OT??

Gary Mitchell

Well-known Member
Hope this can be considered tool talk. Wife and I have about decided to go to solar electric.
It looks like we can install it with investment $ from stocks we have, reinvest the $ we save
from electric bills, and pay ourselves back in less than 10 years w/o figuring stock profit or
loss on either end. They guarantee the panels for 25 years and the inverter for 12. Anyone else
get electricity from sunshine recently? gm
 
Yes, I've been using solar-electric for 10 years. I cannot imagine any possible "payback" in any amount of years. My grid-tie system has around 6000 watts of panels. I also added battery-backup which adds quite a bit to the cost since conventional grid-tie will not work when the grid is not working. Cannot say I ever heard of an inverter with a full 12 year warranty. I have twin Outbacks. They come with a 5 year warranty and that warranty does not cover service calls or shipping fees. I have had to fix them twice so far and did it myself each time with parts sent to me by Outback. The price-tag on my system was around $40,000 and I paid $17,000 out-of-pocket. The rest was paid for with state and federal incentives. Even with the $17K price-tag - I cannot imagine any real payback in my lifetime. Not unless the cost of electric from the Grid goes up 400%.
 
Neighbor across the road installed a solar setup on his new shop roof. HE spent $100K on it and received about $40K in tax/rebate incentives. He is bragging about how his electric bill for the entire dairy farm was a net plus for most of the last year. Meaning he was making a small amount over his usage. I asked him what his electric bill averages before the new solar system. That number was around $500-600 each month. So he is receiving $600-700 per month of economic return on his investment. So if he can keep the system working he is getting around 12-14% return on his investment.

Those numbers work just looking at the up front investment only. I am not sure how the long term maintenance is going to break out economically.
 
Do a lot of checking the facts before you commit. Here in AZ, the power companies are adding a monthly service charge to the bill for using their equipment to feed power back to the grid - and the power companies are not paying for any of the solar power fed back into the grid. They have also added a couple other surcharges (Just like the phone company) that will make it impossible to ever recover your investment in our state. They used to figure a 25-year payback; now it is "never".
 
I see several showing up here on farms in Minnesota. Govt is putting in 3 mega installations of 40 to 500 acres covered with them.

I have mixed feelings, seems like a low maintinence deal, but they way thry do it tajes a lot of farmland out of use.. I understand govt incentives to start an industry but boy those are big incentives, it really isn't a cost effective deal on its own at all.

For an individual might as well take the money tho, look over the paperwork carefully be sure you can sell the stuff to your utility long term, and go.

Paul
 
It's really sad that a state like AZ with so much sunshine is so negative about solar power, but it's an example of crooked politicians sleeping with the power companies! I was impressed to see that a Walmart in Tucson had a large solar farm over part of their parking lot, so the customers get to park in the shade and WM probably gets enough power to run their air conditioning. I have a cousin that lives on the island of St. Thomas where electricity is very expensive and she has enough solar to run her AC, and is able to sell the excess back to the power company.
 
I am no math wizard but . . . The guy spent $60,000 out-of-pocket and is saving $7800 per year? That means in around 8 years it might pay for itself IF nothing in the system fails, which it likely will. That is not even taking into account what that $60K might be making if invested somewhere. Or the prospect of having the property taxes raised.
 

Does the sun set in AZ ? Do you want electrical power 24/7 ?
How will the power be transmitted from AZ to NY state where it is required ?
 
Solar power is in its infancy. Much like transistor radios and or computers were back in the 50's. There is no way of knowing how the present solar farms will work out because of so many unknown problems that may develop. I do think it is good to get this system off the ground but has to be done with some caution. The government and industry have to spend a whole lot in the near future to find out how solar power will progress. I wonder just how well that huge solar farm will withstand even the weather changes we have. Will a hail storm, two feet of snow or a wind storm ruin the entire setup. They can only experiment and speculate and go from there to see what happens. Around here it is more farmers and land owners worrying about it than CROOKED politicians. We all want continuous power and we want it now.
 
(quoted from post at 14:42:34 03/05/17) Hope this can be considered tool talk. Wife and I have about decided to go to solar electric.
It looks like we can install it with investment $ from stocks we have, reinvest the $ we save
from electric bills, and pay ourselves back in less than 10 years w/o figuring stock profit or
loss on either end. They guarantee the panels for 25 years and the inverter for 12. Anyone else
get electricity from sunshine recently? gm

First off, find out how long the company that makes this amazing 25 year guarantee has been in business. If it's not been around at least 15-25 years, there's no reason to think they will be around in 25 more. Secondly, find out what your state laws are as far as the power co having to buy your power back and at what rate. Be sure you understand exactly what you're getting into.
 
(quoted from post at 14:56:59 03/05/17) Yes, I've been using solar-electric for 10 years. I cannot imagine any possible "payback" in any amount of years. My grid-tie system has around 6000 watts of panels. I also added battery-backup which adds quite a bit to the cost since conventional grid-tie will not work when the grid is not working. Cannot say I ever heard of an inverter with a full 12 year warranty. I have twin Outbacks. They come with a 5 year warranty and that warranty does not cover service calls or shipping fees. I have had to fix them twice so far and did it myself each time with parts sent to me by Outback. The price-tag on my system was around $40,000 and I paid $17,000 out-of-pocket. The rest was paid for with state and federal incentives. Even with the $17K price-tag - I cannot imagine any real payback in my lifetime. Not unless the cost of electric from the Grid goes up 400%.


To me this sounds a lot more realistic than the stories of "I get my power for free!!!" stuff.
 
AS a retired electrical engineer I'm a big fan and USER of solar energy in my RV where I spend months at a time on the road with a lot of dry boondock camping in western BLM lands and mountains etc. I WOULDNT BE WITHOUT IT. The freedom and convenience it affords me and the ability to camp off grid for indefinite time periods in beautiful serene scenic surroundings is INVALUABLE TO ME not to mention the huge cost savings of paying expensive campground fees. Of course, as far as residential use, it depends much on 1) Does the Utility allow grid tie and 2) Whether or not utility is even available.

As far as payback or not and regardless how long it may or not pay back and be economically feasible THATS A PERSONS OWN FREE CHOICE and it doesn't matter if another person likes it...... A persons investment choices are purely personal depending on their needs and choices regardless what others may think.

Subject to what the utility charges and subject to the initial cost plus maintenance and life expectancy etc etc etc (lots of variables and inputs) it can be determined by simple match how long it may take to payback or not payback, regardless of ones OPINION if it will or not. IE people are entitled to their own OPINIONS but NOT their own FACTS lol

Sooooooooooo its NOT for everybody and if one doesn't like it or its NOT a wise investment for them THEY PROBABLY SHOULDNT INVEST IN IT. There's no "Its my way or the highway" here, its a persons free choice to use it or not regardless of purely economic facts.

Use it or not use it, you get no argument from me, to each their own I say regardless what another person may say or think.

John T (Love my solar RV)
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:52 03/05/17) Neighbor across the road installed a solar setup on his new shop roof. HE spent $100K on it and received about $40K in tax/rebate incentives. He is bragging about how his electric bill for the entire dairy farm was a net plus for most of the last year. Meaning he was making a small amount over his usage. I asked him what his electric bill averages before the new solar system. That number was around $500-600 each month. So he is receiving $600-700 per month of economic return on his investment. So if he can keep the system working he is getting around 12-14% return on his investment.

Those numbers work just looking at the up front investment only. I am not sure how the long term maintenance is going to break out economically.

I cannot imagine a dairy only using $5-600 a month in power. My bill ran over $600.00 last month and I don't have compressors, coolers, motors, feeders, etc running. Neighbor milking about 100 head says his bill is close to $3500.00 a month these days.
 

The price of power in Ontario is so high that it's almost worth considering a grid tie solar system just to avoid using 6-8hrs of peak rate power through the mid day.
 
Too many negatives and bull$hit surrounding solar to be practical so I went with geothermal. The guy up the road decided to cover the front roof of his house with ugly solar panels. His house looks like a motherboard. LOL. Around here we get ALOT of cloudy days, so I know for a fact that I am kicking his butt bigtime on energy gains.

Even if you can get beyond the hype of providing energy back to the power company through the grid (those claims are jacked-up), the maintenance issues are the most troubling. The performance of the panels degrade over time at the rate of something like .05-2% per year.

Also regarding the amount received by state grants ... that is taxable income. Meaning in my state if you get $3000 toward solar they will get ~$1200 of that the following year. What a joke.
 
I want to know what inverter maker offers a standard 12 year warranty? I know of a few that will extend the warranty if paid extra.

I also would like to know what specific power company allows a private residence have a grid-tie system that greatly exceeds the normal usage and actually pays for the excess.

I have dealt with five different power companies with grid-tie systems. All I dealt with only allowed a system that produced 110% of normal previous grid usage. When excess does result they carry a credit for 12 months and then set it back to zero with no cash payment to the homeowner. I am talking in the northeast and midwest. Maybe it varies somewhere else. If so, I'd like to hear the specifics.
 
Gary,
I live in Terre Haute. A added a passive solar room on the house. When the sun is out in the winter, great but only for about 6 hours. Very little solar gain in morning and evening. This winter has been a bust, more cloudy days than sunny. More heat loss at night through the windows than solar gain in the day time.

Before I would invest in solar electricity, I would buy a small unit from HF and see just how much energy it generates.

Personally I think solar is a pipe dream. I can't see how solar would supply enough energy to power a total electric home.

Solar may generate enough power for lights and small appliances, but you would need another energy source to heat a home, heat water, cook, run a welder, electric range, air conditioner, air compressor.

I would do the math. How much return are you getting on your investment in the market? How much of a return will solar provide?

However it's your money. Ask your stock broker what he thinks of solar? Has he invested in solar? Please post his answer.
 
We have 14Kw installed; and it provides about 75% of our needs. Entering year 4 of 9.6 year breakeven. I can reprogram one inverter to provide grid independent 120V in event of power failure. Of course the sun has to be shining then! Only had 1 glitch, poor connection on circuit breaker was causing it to kick out. Tightened screw and back in business. Electricity will only cost more and it has worked well for me.
 
Why not factor in how much would he have made each year if he had $60k in the market?. Then take the difference to determine when he will come ahead.
 
Gary,
I googled is solar electric a good investment. Here is part of the article.

The installation costs of solar roof panels on average American family homes varies between $18,000 and $35,000, according to the Solar Power Authority. Locations with more hours of sunshine, such as California or Arizona, require fewer panels to generate the same amount of electricity than homes in cloudier places like Washington or Illinois. Assuming an average monthly residential electricity bill of $75, the gross payback period for this installation for the householder is 20 years or more.

Before I cashed in on my market investments, I would talk to a cpa and see how that will effect my taxes, especially if you are cashing in on your 401k.

Then I would do more research. I read someplace the tax advantages for solar is better for people or corporations in the highest tax brackets.

If you do make the decision on solar, please let us know how well it worked out.
interesting read on solar
 
Geo and Ernie, thanks. After reading the link George sent I may consider waiting to see what the PGIC's admin does regarding added expenses favoring the fossil fuel industry. Thanks for your interest and responses. gm
 
gm,
I got to thinking last night about my market investments. I have two investments. My large one is 401k. My small one is cash I put in the market. I've been retired for 13 years and recently started drawing SS and getting monthly draws from my small cash investment. My small market investment will not only pay all my electric bill on a total electric home, it will also pay for my insurance and taxes on my home too. NO WAY WILL I CASH THEM IN FOR A SOLAR ELECTRIC.
GEO
 

From what I read here solar may or may not work. If it does work it is only because of government tax brakes. I don't like giving my tax money that. If anyone wants solar energy, that is great but do it with your money not mine. Not only you but the companies that make the panels are getting big assistance from my tax money. Sooo tax money going to the buyer and the manufacturer, I call it a big scam.
 
There are 35 towns and cities in SW Missouri getting power off the grid that is served by the solar farm at Butler. http://www.publicpower.org/Media/daily/ArticleDetail.cfm?ItemNumber=41308

I believe there are 112 similar installations in Missouri.

A lot of us are getting solar power indirectly, and don't even know it.
 
(quoted from post at 18:34:54 03/07/17) There are 35 towns and cities in SW Missouri getting power off the grid that is served by the solar farm at Butler. http://www.publicpower.org/Media/daily/ArticleDetail.cfm?ItemNumber=41308

I believe there are 112 similar installations in Missouri.

A lot of us are getting solar power indirectly, and don't even know it.

What is the source of power from mid afternoon, through the night and until mid morning ?
What is the source of power during cloudy weather, storms and if in the north when covered with snow or during short winter days with weak sunlight?
 
(quoted from post at 18:34:54 03/07/17) There are 35 towns and cities in SW Missouri getting power off the grid that is served by the solar farm at Butler. http://www.publicpower.org/Media/daily/ArticleDetail.cfm?ItemNumber=41308

I believe there are 112 similar installations in Missouri.

A lot of us are getting solar power indirectly, and don't even know it.

If solar and wind worked on a large utility grid with low cost base load power , "green" would not require subsidies.
 

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