Battery Quiz!

guido

Well-known Member
Hello,

Applying the same load on two identical batteries, which one will most likely fail A load test and why?

Guido.
a149300.jpg
 
Hello David G,

I do enjoy your posts as well. That new machine will keep your brain moving HE! HE!
No...... not research Just text book facts. Been at it for many years, trying to pass it on, I am still learning!

Guido.
 
Hello JMOR,

There is another reason why the battery you picked may fail....?

Guido
 
guido,

Not trying ot be smarty, but battery two doesn't show any plates in jar one.

Next best guess is that there is additional resistance (connection) between negative post of jar one to cell plate one on battery one.

D.
 
Hello dennis min,

Yeap! Another reason why the first one would fail. There is more though,

Guido.
 
#1 as the connectors and cell plates are heavier in #2?--but then you stated two identical battery's so I am confused!
 
Maybe I am getting senile but your posit makes no sense to me. A battery is a group of cells joined together and stuck in a box. You show two "batteries" and say they are identical. Excuse me - but if they are "identical" then by definition, there is no difference to be assumed under an equal load-test.

Maybe someday is someone actually can see an electron (and prove it exists), and then prove which way it goes, how, and why - maybe you'll have an answer.
 
Hello JDEM,

Not even superman would be able to see those pesky electrons. By the same I meant the same type and capacity. Please keep it light. There is also a big difference between the two batteries that no one has mentioned yet!

Guido.
 
# 2 looks to have thicker lines representing thicker plates with more room between them for the sulphation crystals not to short out the plates. Also the thicker plates could probably take vibration better.
 
Hello dpendzic,

Yes you are right! If all else was identical, the battery with the thinner plates and connectors would fail the load test. I was not clear about the batteries, I meant the same type and capacity

Guido.
 
Guido,

I see two batteries.

The first battery of 6 jars has each made of 6 cells. There exists a "connection" betwixt the post and the first cell of the first jar.

The second battery of 6 jars has 4 cells in each jar. And I see that jar 1 has no cells? Also, that jar #5 has maybe three cells?

Maybe I am seeing it wrongly, so I cannot define what the differences are when it comes to a capacity test. I may be looking well past the obvious.

D
 
Hello Gene Davis(GA.),

Ha! Ha! Another part of the quiz exposed. Did you miss #1 cell on the #2 battery?

Guido.
 
Hello dennis min,

There IS no wrong way to look at it. There are a few things going on, and my chicken scratch I'm sure does not help. Actually each jar is representing one cell for a total of 6 for a twelve volt battery. The obvious is that both batteries would measure zero voltage at the posts, no load test needed. Just the mighty volt ohm meter. It is all anyone needs for many tests including load testing of the now famous automotive battery. Eventually I will have some believers out there. May be soon?

Guido.
 
Guido,

I may have intermingled cell/jar/battery.

What is normally found in a 12 volt DC automobile is a jar, consisting of 6 cells of approximately 2 volts each.

A battery is a matter of connecting jars. Perhaps a modern diesel would be considered to have a battery of 2 jars of 6 cells each.

I am unsure of anything else. It's the way I have been taught, and more significantly, its clearly defined technical descriptions and definitions that keep me gainfully employed.

D.
 
Hello dennis min,

Simple set-up and old technology. It just a ameses me how simplicity can be so hard, not only to understand, buf to be accept as is.....


Guido.
 
Hello,


The answer to the quiz:

The first battery having very thin plate and connectors would fail under load or while the engine was trying to crank. A VOLT meter would show the voltage drop.
The second battery having a dead cell would not have any voltage at the battery posts. Again a VOLT meter would have Shawn that. Also a VOLT meter would show a dead cell provided it was an open top battery, and the cell was accessible with a probe,

Guido.
 
I think you have failed quiz-making 101. Your premise and posit was based upon two identical batteries. Are we supposed to follow your actual words or try to make sense of conflicting art-work?
 


but also...

battery no 1, having more surface area to react,,, will load test higher/longer than battery two. If that is your question???

but thinner plates tend to crack and deteriorate under vibration... as in my very small MOTORCYCLE batteres, they ALWAYS SHORT out due to the material breaking off and either building up in the bottom to where its high enough to short the cells, or larger particles getting stuck between the plates. these batteries often have clear containers so you can actually see what happens as they age.

Battery number two, have thicker cells COULD last longer as to service life in years before failure, but would NOT necessarily put out more current, or... put out more current longer...........as it has less surface area to work with. And battery number 2 may not have a longer service life if the cells are very very close together, so that any small particle can short the cells out.

this assumes the cell to cell bridges are equal as well as the cell to battery post connections.

Lots more variables.. how much space at the bottom, below the cells for material to build up, before it touches the bottom of the cells... how much space between the cells, how much surface area is available for producing current, how thick are the cells to stand up to vibrations, how are the cells anchored, top, bottom, and sides... ( some battery cases have notches to hold the cells securely on the sides, top and bottom, to help resist vibration damage.), Some batteries actually have a perforated layer of plastic between the cells so that the acid can go through, but the lead can never touch even if the plates warp or collapse. how much excess electrolytic is available.. especially in maintenance free batteries, size of connections between cells... etc..
 
Hello sotxbill,

You are right! Lots of variables including ambient temperature. Voltage is a good way to determine battery
potential and troubleshoot many other conditions that will make a no start. Some one said it here a few
days ago. Using a volt meter seems a lost art,

Guido.
 
(quoted from post at 02:47:23 01/23/17) Hello sotxbill,


The advantage of a DSO appeared the price became somewhat affordable manufactures expanded their functions. Tooling such as low/high amp clamps that will also work on a DVOM became inviting. The number one tool I use diagnosing a starting/charging issue is a DVOM with a high amp clamp.

The number one recommendation on most any forum is to take it off/out and run down to a parts store for a free check. Parts stores are not gods and know no more than you do. The very BEST way to check a battery, starter, alternator is where it lives and does its work on the car. This pattern answer dumbs down every one in the community but pleases the parts god’s. The parts gods use a machine that for all involved possess magic that goes again the grain of everything I have ever learned about battery state of charge. The only work involved is hook it up with two simple connections answer a few simple questions and push buttons. No matter what it reads more than likely a sale will be made the owner is not going thru this routine every few days. If a battery sale is not made a alternator sale is the next logical answer it’s like magic the parts god win’s.

The alternator did not fix it he returns and is sold a battery the parts gods double up. A year down the road the issue returns it must be the battery BUT that fancy magic box passes it NO replacement battery is issued the magic box is always right it’s a god that cannot be questioned modern technology trumps. He spends the day driving around till he stumbles on a shop that has a load tester and knows how to use it, they have the capability to check the charging/starting system and rule it out. The battery is condemned no doubt he now is armed and can demand a replacement battery no matter what the magic box has recorded.

Vegas could not dream up a better advantage for the house throw in the possibility the DIY guy will fudge up other parts in the system in his attempts it’s a win win win for the house.
The use of a voltmeter is not a lost art it’s diagnostic capabilities are still being discovered every day it will take generations of applying it to bring it to the foe front. Things like a little magic box keep the DIY dumbed down so the house can win. A load tester coupled with a DVOM and amp clamp are still the undisputed world champion that's is the lost art.
 
(quoted from post at 09:54:52 01/22/17) I think you have failed quiz-making 101. Your premise and posit was based upon two identical batteries. Are we supposed to follow your actual words or try to make sense of conflicting art-work?

I agree. He said "same load" and "identical batteries" and makes no indication that the drawings are supposed to mean something. For all we know his pen could have quit writing and all he had to work with was a magic marker.

When you are specifying "same load" and "identical batteries" and asking which one will fail first, FLIP A COIN.
 
Whoops I did not get it all in.

Voltmeters started to shine when DVOM showed up in the 80’s when computerized engine controls appeared. To this day applying them in your diagnostic routines has opened the door to a new world. Engineers wrote trouble shooting charts and kept the ohm meter as king. Slowly the top guns discovered a computer did not look at ohms it looked at voltage so it took time before what the voltage reading should be and for the engineers to start adding it to their trouble shooting charts.

The advantage of a DSO appeared the price became somewhat affordable manufactures expanded their functions. Tooling such as low/high amp clamps that will also work on a DVOM became inviting. The number one tool I use diagnosing a starting/charging issue is a DVOM with a high amp clamp.
The number one recommendation on most any forum is to take it off/out and run down to a parts store for a free check. Parts stores are not gods and know no more than you do. The very BEST way to check a battery, starter, alternator is where it lives and does its work. This pattern answer dumbs down every one in the community but pleases the parts god’s. The parts gods use a machine that for all involved possess magic that goes again the grain of everything I have ever learned about battery state of charge. The only work involved is hook it up with two simple connections answer a few simple questions and push buttons. No matter what it reads more than likely a sale will be made the owner is not going thru this routine every few days. If a battery sale is not made a alternator sale is the next logical answer it’s like magic the parts god win’s.

The alternator did not fix it he returns and is sold a battery the parts gods double up. A year down the road the issue returns it must be the battery BUT that fancy magic box passes it NO replacement battery is issued the magic box is always right it’s a god that cannot be questioned. He spends the day driving around till he stumbles on a shop that has a load tester and knows how to use it, they have the capability to check the charging/starting system and rule it out. The battery is condemned no doubt he now is armed and can demand a replacement battery no matter what the magic box has said.

Vegas could not dream up a better advantage for the house throw in the possibility the DIY guy will fudge up other parts in the system in his attempts it’s a win win win for the house.
The use of a voltmeter is not a lost art it’s diagnostic capabilities are still being discovered every day it will take generations of applying it to bring it to the foe front. Things like a little magic box keep the DIY dumbed down so the house can win. A load tester coupled with a DVOM and amp clamp are still the undisputed world champion that is a lost art.
 

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