Another BillyBob electrical question

Son just brought home a Miller 115 volt, 30 amp Spot Welder. My shop has about

12 110volt ,15 and 20 amp circuits and several 220 volt 50 amp circuits.

The neutrals and grounds are connected in the breaker box. My question is can

I pull the 115 volts from one side of a 220 circuit and use the neutral for the

welders neutral and ground. Or can I use one side of the 220 and neutral and

run another wire to the ground rod. All the current wires are behind the wall

and I don,t really want to run a circuit outside the wall. There is no way

to get into the walls now. I know its a Billy Bob question so be kind.

Robert in Md.
 
As for using one side of a 220 circuit and the ground for a neutral, no, that is asking for trouble.

But you can remove one of the black leads from the breaker, use white marker tape and designate it a neutral. Then do the same on the receptacle end, mark the neutral with white tape. You will probably need to pigtail the receptacle end with #10 wire in order to get it under the screws. Then replace the double 50 breaker with a single 30 and a blank cover.

Or cut the drywall directly below the panel and add a remodel box, flex into the bottom of the panel.
 
What you think is a "neutral" may well be a ground. Using a ground conductor as a neutral for a 30 amp 120 volt circuit would be a bad idea.
 
Do you know what size your wires are at the 20A 110V outlets? I ask, because I recently helped my son with his quite new NC house, and in all the circuits along his kitchen counter(probably one of the heaviest usage areas in his house) there were no wires heavier than 14ga, and the breakers were 20A. I am no electrician. My understanding, from years back, was 12ga wires for 20A circuits, and that's what I have.

I'm not sure what your concern exactly is. (All my panels are old enough that the grounds and neutrals are tied together.)

I think I would try the welder on one of the 20A 110V outlets(after installing the proper receptacle) If not sufficient, the next thing I would try is a 30A 110V breaker, as long as your wires are bigger than 14ga. This should stir things up! I don't qualify as Billy Bob, as my name is Robert William. So does that just make me a backwards Billy Bob?!
 

Ground and neutral are not the same.
If the shop panel is supplied from another breaker or fuse panel upstream, the ground and neutral are not to be bonded.
Did somebody bury this panel in the wall flush instead of a surface mount ?
 
What if the shop(or garage) is attached to house where ground and neutral are
bonded? My building inspector required me to run 4 wire for new dryer I put in
new utility room upstairs, back to load center where ground and neutral are
bonded. While my old dryer in basement uses 3 wire. One wire for ground and
neutral.

I know 4 wire is the code, while three wire has been used in my house built
that was in 1950.

I have spent a lot of time googling trying to find someone who was killed
because of 3 wire ranges and dryers. I've yet to find one case of
electrocution. On the other hand, I do know of people who died because mobile
homes and campers were 3 wire, metal siding wasn't properly grounded.
 
Mornin Robert, very legitimate questions and yes I will be kind !!!


1) You ask " My question is can I pull the 115 volts from one side of a 220 circuit and use the neutral for the

welders neutral and ground."

NOTE ALL SUBJECT TO HOW THE WELDER IS WIRED AND CONFIGURED IM NOT THERE SO CANT BE 100% SURE Its my best educated guess not being there if its a 120 volt device and has a 3 wire cord and plug the bare/green safety equipment grounding conductor is bonded to the outer metal case/frame of the welder which you can touch and you for sure dont want it bonded to a live current carrier because then your heart could possibly be placed in a parallel current path and as little as 30 to 50 milliamps can possibly kill you dead !!!!!!!!!!!


Its my professional but long retired power distribution engineers opinion the answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOO if life safety and the NEC matters that is (warning Billy Bob can say he did it and it worked by golly lol) ALSO if its a 30 amp device such requires 10 gauge or larger wire but those 15 or 20 amp receptacles would only be wired with 14 or 12 gauge wire THATS A BIG NEC NO NO

2) You ask "Or can I use one side of the 220 and neutral and run another wire to the ground rod."

Its my professional opinion if this is re-done CORRECT it can work and be safe and even code proper provided all is rewired and reconfigured correct HOWEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR you don't run another wire to the Ground Rod you run it (the safety equipment GroundING Conductor) to the Equipment Ground Buss located inside the panel.

FOR YOUR INFORMATION

A) If the welder is a 30 amp device but those 15 and 20 amp branch circuit receptacles are only fed by 14 or 12 gauge wire THEY DONT HAVE THE RATED AMPACITY to power a 30 amp device.

B) Those 220 volt 50 amp receptacles (their wiring) has the rated ampacity to power a 120 volt (one leg of the 220) 30 amp welder PROVIDED they are rewired and the correct matching receptacle to mate with the welders plug so they have one HOT, one NEUTRAL, and one Safety Equipment GroundiNG Conductor back to the panel. Likewise in the panel the circuit needs wired to a single pole 30 amp 120 volt breaker and then the Neutral to the Neutral Buss and the Equipment Ground to the Equipment Ground Buss

NOTE: Ive been here since 1998 and tried a gazillion times to explain this but I don't think many (NOT all) non electricians or non technicians or non engineers will ever get it BUT I KEEP TRYING LOL

Neutral IS NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT the same as the safety equipment Grounding Conductor. Wiring or using otherwise CAN GET YOU KILLED

Neutral is a hot live current carrying GROUNDED conductor designed to carry normal return current. Its insulated for safety. The bare safety equipment grounding conductor provides a low impedance return current path ONLY FOR FAULT CURRENT. It's often bonded to the outer conductive metal case of some tools or appliances which you can touch!!! If you start mixing and matching Neutral and Ground and there may be faults you could end up touching a tool or appliance and placing your heart in a parallel current path and that can kill you dead...

Why and how does Billy Bob and Bubba continue to think Neutral and ground are the same?????????????? do they ever consider the experts and professional who wrote the NEC might just possibly know more then they do ??? Must not lol

Keep safe Robert, best wishes

John T
 
What is the amp-rating at the AC input? 30 amps output on the weld end is probably around 30 volts. That comes to around 900 watts. That is only 8 amps needed from an AC outlet. I have a little Century 70 amp welder that draws 20 amps max in a 120 volt outlet. Arc voltage is 28 volts. My 70 amp welder does not even have a 20 amp plug on the lead cord, it is a 15 amp plug,
 
Thanks for the new info. That RULES OUT use of your existing 15 or 20 amp 14 or 12 gauge wire fed 120 volt circuits.

John T
 
I looked it up out of curiosity. I guess because it is a spot welder and not an arc welder it runs a higher weld-voltage Around 80 volts at full load and 1500 watts AC draw at a 50% duty-cycle. Can surge to 3000 watts. If it was mine - and my 50 amp 220-240 volt welder outlet is three-prong and the ground is bonded to neutral at the panel? Using that ground as a neutral would certainly work. Is it as safe as using a dedicated neutral? No. I guess it depends on how much you care. I'd be likely to make up an adapter cord that does indeed tap the ground as a neutral, use one side of the 220 as a feed, and use it. I'd probably NOT want to be well-grounded myself when holding it and using it. Certainly is not a "code-compliant" way to do it - but to "each his own." Also seems to me that adding your own new ground-rod to ground the case of the welder when using it would make you safer. I don't care what the code-boys say. If your new ground rod gives a better path to "earth" then your feet do - a short to "earth" will travel the easiest path. Hey, just my opinion. If someone here can actually see electrons and observe their behavior - ask that person.
 
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and do what you dont want to do. I would not do what you suggest with the 220 breaker and I am not schooled in the code book, nor an electrical engineer retired or not. A quick check on my pocket wire size chart says you need #10 wire minimum. Thus unless your shop was wired with some oversized conductors you cannot use any 110 circuits that are currently in place. I think that all 30 amp 110V circuits operate under there own set of rules and regulation? One of the super smart can confirm or deny that but I do know that if I was to install a 30 amp 110 circuit it would be a dedicated circuit with ONE outlet using 10 ga minimum wire depending on how far you need to be from the breaker box. Correct separation and connection of neutrals and ground is assumed. To stay out of the walls and still have a neat installation you can use one of the many surface mounted wire tray systems such as WireMold which are cheap and easy to install.
 
A lot of members here are old. In the old days of two wire wiring all the old timers I was around called the neutral a ground and it's still influences the language today. I got in trouble here once referring to the neutral as a ground by calling it that when I meant neutral. Hard habit to break.
 
Electrocuted or shocked? I realize the words are used interchangeably nowadays, but I find this unfortunate because it reduces the information. Electrocuted means killed by electricity, which is different in an important way from being shocked. I wouldn't ask, but the information content of your postings is always high, and this is a topic which interests me. I've been involved in several incidents where electric ranges shorted when being pushed back in place, and I also know of it happening to a number of friends and family members. I can't remember anybody being shocked, except in the sense of being startled, but that's clearly just good luck.

Stan
 
I know one professional electrician who insists it NOT be called a Neutral but a Grounded Conductor which it indeed is (as opposed to the other hot Ungrounded Conductor) but in all my years of practice the engineers plus electricians always called it Neutral. Of course those in the trade and electricians and engineers know the difference and the purpose of the Equipment GroundING Conductor, the Grounded Conductor (Neutral) and the UnGrounDED Conductor (hot) but so many others simply don't. Hey each has their own training and experience and cant be expected to know everything especially if outside their own profession so its nothing to be ashamed of.

John T
 
Yes electrocution always means death and is used incorrectly a lot. But the young man died. I think once every 19 days someone is killed by 277 volt lighting circuits.
 
FYI for the others, looks like dr and Steve and Mark and some others already know this, electrocution or a shock can happen if one part of your body (say hand) comes in contact with a hot live current carrying conductor LIKE IF AN APPLIANCE HAD NEUTRAL BONDED TO ITS OUTER STEEL CASE FRAME such as possible in some 3 versus 4 wire miswired appliances, while say your feet or other hand contacts another surface (maybe wet floor or another appliance or a pipe or another wired device etc etc) that has a connection (be it via wire or water or metal) back to the panel, then you are a parallel current path with the Neutral meaning some current can flow through your heart and only 30 to 50 milliamps can mess up ones heart and you could even die dead.

How many of you would tell your barefoot grandchild to strip the insulation off the white Neutral wire and touch it ???????????????????????????????????????????? That's the same thing if you bonded Neutral to a big piece of metal (like an incorrect wired appliance) and had them stand on a wet floor barefooted and touch the dryer

FEEL FREE TO MAKE FUN OF THE NEC OR ELECTRICIANS AND DO THAT IF YOU LIKE BUT I CHOOSE NOTTTTTTTTT TO

Just because a non electrician or anyone doesn't understand WHY something can kill you DONT MEAN IT CANT STILL KILL YOU so take chances and ignore trained professional experts and the NEC at your own risk

That's my opinion and others are entitled to their opinions so its your call

John T
 
Indeed. So much for modern construction, codes, and inspections.

20 or so years ago I was involved in town politics, and somehow through that met the local electrician/maintenance guy for Wells College. They had just built a new guest house. The local guy was telling me how he found an electric heater in the garage, on a 30A circuit, using 14ga wire!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure all the proper paper work was in place, so maybe that was all OK?

My sons house, mentioned above is quite new.

Seems to me, in any of these cases, an electrical inspector should be able to tell pretty quickly, looking into a breaker box, if the proper size wire is used?
 
You stated "How many of you would tell your barefoot grandchild to strip the insulation off the white Neutral wire and touch it. . "

I have to ask. What the heck does that have to do with what the original poster asked?

Getting away from elec-tech jargon and non code-compliant fears and maybe Thomas Edison electrocuting circus elephants - I ask this.

If the guy ran a dedicated earth ground to his new welder (as he mentioned) - and chose to use the ground on his 50 amp welder outlet as a neutral - and it IS indeed bonded to "chassis-ground" and another "earth-ground" in the breaker-panel . . Explain where all this electrocution gloom and doom is coming from. I am not suggesting he do it. I don't care either way. I know I could if I wanted and be safer then with a lot of other things I do.
 
(quoted from post at 14:21:01 01/05/17) You stated "How many of you would tell your barefoot grandchild to strip the insulation off the white Neutral wire and touch it. . "

I have to ask. What the heck does that have to do with what the original poster asked?

Getting away from elec-tech jargon and non code-compliant fears and maybe Thomas Edison electrocuting circus elephants - I ask this.

If the guy ran a dedicated earth ground to his new welder (as he mentioned) - and chose to use the ground on his 50 amp welder outlet as a neutral - and it IS indeed bonded to "chassis-ground" and another "earth-ground" in the breaker-panel . . Explain where all this electrocution gloom and doom is coming from. I am not suggesting he do it. I don't care either way. I know I could if I wanted and be safer then with a lot of other things I do.

Doing so now completly pooches the ground system. Now the ground is an energized load current carrying conductor with voltage drop due to current flow and I2R losses.
Now anything connected to ground is energized from a few to a lot of volts above true earth potential.
Now when Bessy the cow steps into the milking palour, drinks from a water bowl or metal feeder. Poor old bessy gets a shock.
Google tingle voltage and livestock.
Why is it you and so many like you can not accept the word of engineers, trained trades people and electrical code inspectors and have to wire it "your way"?
 
Connecting the ground and neutral at the one buss bar sets everything proper and working as intended. If any of many many odd failures happen, they will be accounted for.

If you connect the ground and the neutral in a couple of places, you set up some odd circular patterns in your wiring that will work great and fine most of the time....... But there are several situations that could happen that would be a bad deal. A few would be really really bad, and several would just be kinda exciting.

If electricity were water.......

You have one water main coming in the house, and all pipes end up connected to that main supply. At the water heater the hot and cold pipes tee off and go their Merry way. You will have a hot water run, and a cold water run. But the pipes all connect at the main supply once....

Now, if you do some plumbing in the house and add a sink, you can't just tap into the nearest 2 pipes and say well, they come from the same main supply, so they will work just fine at the sink no matter which pipe I tap into.

No, no. The hot pipe and the cold pop are very very different, you -mist- keep them sorts out and seperate from each other, not interconnected at multiple places.

It is the same concept with electricity. Yes the 2 lines connect at one ground spot. But, they run off and do 2 very different things. If you interconnect them here and there, then neither one is doing the right thing, or working properly. You won't kno it until something goes wrong.

If you mess up plumbing the house, you might get wet, or get tepid water, or real hot or real cold water, none of which you wanted but you will know it! But you will always get water pressure.

With electricity it is the opposite - you won't know it's wrong until something else fails. Only -then- will the different levels of voltage show up.

And that is the problem. As you say, any fool can wire up a 120v system and it will work. What people can't see are the hidden traps, that don't show up until something actually goes wrong. Something gets wet that shouldn't, a wire breaks, a connection gets coated, so,e insulation frays off. Only -then- does the side effects of wiring it wrong show up.

Any those situations are -reason- the ground wire is there. If you use that ground wire for anything else, then it no longer can do its job of keeping you safe. Because now there are circular paths for low voltage to follow, and lots of bare metal can hold that stray voltage, and on and on. Sure the electricity will work - until it doesn't for some reason, and then 'surprise' you don't know what will happen with your circular paths....


Paul
 
Robert, connecting the neutral and ground wires in multiple places looks like it shouldn't matter, but if you study electricity and why both wires are there, it dawns on a person that connecting those wires to each other more than once has the same possible effect as connecting your hot and cold water pipes together more than once. It defeats the point of bothering to have both wires (or pipes).... With electricity it will work until it doesn't, and if that time comes you really don't know what will happen or how electricity will route itself through the different circles you now set up and what problems that will cause.

So it works - until it doesn't.



Your other thought in theory, running that seperate ground wire on a different route back to the common buss bar would be just fine - in theory.

In the real world, such wiring becomes very complex very fast, and while you know what you did, no one else will be able to follow what wire is where for what, and can't add on more and more circuits, and it becomes a rats nest of single wires and double wires running all over.

Yuk!

So, in practice, it is not allowed to run that seperate ground wire on a different path. All the wires going to an outlet need to run parallel to each other, the same path. (I know, I know, just this one, it's obvious what this one time is there for, it's not an important circuit and it won't ever be added on to, I know I know it's all so simple in your and my head I get it.....) but, no, it isn't allowed because it becomes a mess real fast.

And so, you are left with rewiring the whole path.

It sucks, but it's the only right way to do it. A lot of wiring happens by pulling new wire in when pulling the old out, and very minor holes and fishing on a corner or two? Sometimes putting in a new run to replace old wire isn't as bad as it first looks?

Paul
 
Paul, since 1998 on here I've tried my best to explain the difference in Neutral and the Equipment GroundING Conductor to non electricians on here and the safety hazards in mixing and matching the two and the reason for single point Neutral Ground BONDING but have failed lol hope you have better luck. If the NEC board would only listen to Billy Bob and Bubba lol

John T Retired Electrical Power Distribution Engineer
 
My answer is a good faith attempt to educate the poster (and all the electrically challenged gents here) on the correct safe way to wire the welder and the purpose of Ground and Neutral etc so no one is electrocuted or killed, if that makes me a bad person just call me bad lol

Those familiar with the purpose of Ground and Neutral and parallel current paths and the hazards involved in contacting live current carrying conductors can understand why its not recommended but for the others I surrender lol I apologize I cant teach in a paragraph what takes books and years of study and experience to fully comprehend. You have an electrical background I'm sure you understand this or should but sooooooo many here don't and its them I'm trying to help educate and maybe save their lives, again if that's bad then call me bad

Best wishes take care and be safe now

John T
 
RE your comment . . . "If you use that ground wire for anything else, then it no longer can do its job of keeping you safe...."

In the case presented here by the original poster - the "ground wire"from the welder outlet is originally intended to protect the person using his welder. It grounds the chassis/case of the unit. If that ground (in the 50 amp outlet) gets used as a neutral for the new spot-welder with an adapter extension-cord, and the same spot-welder gets its chassis/case protected by a new, genuine "earth" ground - I fail to see the danger. The "ground wire" in the welder outlet is already permanently bonded to neutral so it certainly can work as a neutral as far as electron flow goes. Does any of this interfere with the integrity of any other neutral or ground in the rest of the house? E.g. and i.e. the "circular paths" you mention? My opinion is "no." The only way I see a hazard is if he hard-wired a new outlet to the welder-plug wiring and left it so the 50 amp arc-welder could still be plugged in an used. Then the return-neutral from the new spot-welder could energize the chassis/frame of the arc-welder. By using an adapter-cord - when the new spot-welder was being used - the 50 amp outlet would be unavailable for any other use.
 
There's a simple explanation why one shouldn't use a ground conductor as a neutral.

What happens if there's a bad connection in the neutral conductor in a properly wired circuit? Literally nothing. The device plugged into the circuit doesn't work, but nobody gets hurt.

Now let's use the ground as a neutral. Remember, the ground normally carries no current, so the probability of a bad connection in the ground is fairly high. So what happens when the ground conductor fails open? EVERYTHING connected to that ground between the powered device and the fault is NOW HOT. That might be conduit or the chassis of a grounded device on the same circuit. Not a good situation.

As for ground loops (caused by connecting grounds and neutrals in multiple locations), that is a concern for electromagnetic compatibility. However, most folks aren't too worried about EMC when installing an AC spot welder.
 
"If you connect the ground and the neutral in a couple of places, you set up some odd circular patterns in your wiring that will work great and fine most of the time....... But there are several situations that could happen that would be a bad deal. A few would be really really bad, and several would just be kinda exciting."

Paul, While some can make complicated the simplest of life problems my life experience has been that only those who truly understand a subject can explain the complicated in a way that a layman can understand,,, thus you have just proven yourself with me. This is exactly how ground and neutral separation was explained to me by my neighbor who is recently retired as one of the big wheels in distribution for Ohio power. He is fond of saying heck! none of it is safe!! however when done right it is SAFER than done wrong. We purchased an old farmstead a couple years ago and the wiring was a nightmare. As he helped me upgraded the services to each building he explained how the old wiring could do exactly as you stated, Thank you.
 
You asked a question and gave specifics. Many of the "Bubba-Billy-Bob fear" answers are vague and full of hot-air and generalities. The fact remains - if you built an adapter extension cord, used one hot leg from the 220 volt/50 amp outlet and that ground for a neutral - it would work fine and pose little hazard. That is assuming you do indeed run a new earth-ground for protection when using the spot welder.

I am not suggesting you do it, but I am answering your question in the style that you asked.

Some of the replies are kind here are "beyond the pale." One person suggests there might be danger IF that ground is not really bonded to neutral at the breaker-panel? Well the original question and info here says it IS bonded. I will further note that if that is a legit fear - then I guess the 50 amp ground being a dud can also cause electrocution when using the the 220 volt arc-welder?

What a bunch of old ladies! What the heck has happened to this place? I remember when it was not frowned upon when someone tried to innovate or think "outside the box" a bit. I was kidding before about Thomas Edison electrocuting circus elephants to prove how dangerous Tesla's electricity was- but now it seems to apply to some of you guys.

I also have to wonder . . one guy says he has electric skills but when he got a new barn built - he hired someone to do the wiring.
So what? I just built my own barn and did my own wiring. All passed inspection just fine. So does that make me a bad guy now? Geez.

Edison tried to convince masses about the dangers of using AC (instead of his DC). Seems like some of you guys are on his team.
a247395.jpg
 

Redneck solution... get a 50 amp plug / cord.. and small single breaker box. and a 30 amp 115v receptacle. make up a portable jig where you can then use any and all of your 50 amp circuits... though your new breakout box and properly protected by a 30amp breaker, and even maybe a longer 30 amp cord on the out side of the new breaker box... to use with your welder set. This will give you the flexibility you need and give you the safety you need. If its a dual breaker box, ad a 20 amp breaker and built out a 20 amp 115 convenience outlet as well.

I am sure someone will come along and say it breaks some kind of code.
 
San Diego Police horses were dropping dead in one downtown area. Some with the officer mounted. It was trickle voltage. Seems horses are 10 times more susceptible than humans. The LEOs involved never felt a thing.
 
> I will further note that if that is a legit fear - then I guess the 50 amp ground being a dud can also cause electrocution when using the the 220 volt arc-welder?

No it does not. If the ground is bad, using the a 240 volt welder on the circuit doesn't pose any greater risk than would cutting off the ground terminal on the welder plug. Few 240 volt welders use the neutral conductor.

Now in the case of a 240 volt clothes dryer with a three-wire plug, having an open ground/neutral is an issue because chassis ground is tied to neutral, and neutral is typically used for control circuitry. But those are high-impedance loads. A 120 volt welder is anything but high-impedance.
 
(quoted from post at 15:52:13 01/07/17) > I will further note that if that is a legit fear - then I guess the 50 amp ground being a dud can also cause electrocution when using the the 220 volt arc-welder?

No it does not. If the ground is bad, using the a 240 volt welder on the circuit doesn't pose any greater risk than would cutting off the ground terminal on the welder plug. Few 240 volt welders use the neutral conductor.

Now in the case of a 240 volt clothes dryer with a three-wire plug, having an open ground/neutral is an issue because chassis ground is tied to neutral, and neutral is typically used for control circuitry. But those are high-impedance loads. A 120 volt welder is anything but high-impedance.

Welder uses the ground , not the neutral.
 
(quoted from post at 10:03:50 01/06/17) You asked a question and gave specifics. Many of the "Bubba-Billy-Bob fear" answers are vague and full of hot-air and generalities. The fact remains - if you built an adapter extension cord, used one hot leg from the 220 volt/50 amp outlet and that ground for a neutral - it would work fine and pose little hazard. That is assuming you do indeed run a new earth-ground for protection when using the spot welder.

I am not suggesting you do it, but I am answering your question in the style that you asked.

Some of the replies are kind here are "beyond the pale." One person suggests there might be danger IF that ground is not really bonded to neutral at the breaker-panel? Well the original question and info here says it IS bonded. I will further note that if that is a legit fear - then I guess the 50 amp ground being a dud can also cause electrocution when using the the 220 volt arc-welder?

What a bunch of old ladies! What the heck has happened to this place? I remember when it was not frowned upon when someone tried to innovate or think "outside the box" a bit. I was kidding before about Thomas Edison electrocuting circus elephants to prove how dangerous Tesla's electricity was- but now it seems to apply to some of you guys.

I also have to wonder . . one guy says he has electric skills but when he got a new barn built - he hired someone to do the wiring.
So what? I just built my own barn and did my own wiring. All passed inspection just fine. So does that make me a bad guy now? Geez.

Edison tried to convince masses about the dangers of using AC (instead of his DC). Seems like some of you guys are on his team.
a247395.jpg

Why do it good when you can just do it "good enough".

Just because you don't understand electricity doesn't mean the electrical risk does not exist.
A lot of people have forgotten the good old days when shocks from electrical devices was "normal" . We have become complacement .

Go to a farm on a trouble call where farmer brown is loosing $$$ from fussy cows with mastitis and beef or hogs that are nervous and won't drink from the water basin.
Sure enough a little looking find short cut farmer fixes that saved a little time and money then but are costing big time now. Something that farmer brown doesn't understand and won't shutup about is " but it works". Implying there can't be anything wrong if the device "works".
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top