Gouse ground Question.

guido

Well-known Member

Hello,

Is this ground wire legal? Billy Bob said it is,

Guido.
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If BOTH Billy Bob and his know it all brother in law Bubba (wired their garage while downing a case of beer and by golly it works fine) say its legal then it must be.

John T
 
It's like a house where I worked last week. The cable TV guys ran a wire 30' around the house and connected the ground to an outside hydrant which was connected to PVC pipe. My customer was just put off by the sight of the wire. She was really put off when I told her she didn't have it grounded. I ended up installing a ground rod for it.
 
Most driven ground rods are ten foot in length and driven to that depth, appears five plus feet are above ground. In addition the ground attached to it is required to be of a certain copper wire size and attached to the rod with appropriate clamp.
 

Telco installer was driving a ground rod in a rocky area. It stopped, so he got a bigger hammer. It stopped again, so he got a bigger hammer. He was about 7 feet down when someone poked him in the backside... It was the ground rod.. it bent around and came back up behind him.

In the rocky areas, they bury them sideways. 6 foot is 6 foot.
 
Around here copper clad steel is what's available and my county code makes no distinction. 37 years ago when I built my house it was solid copper and 6', but not nowadays. I guess going to 8' from 6 helps to mitigate the loss of conductivity of the steel center.

Part of the reason for the length being 8' (here), 10' elsewhere as indicated, is to reach 24/7/365 soil moisture which helps to ensure ground and that means the whole rod goes in with 6" exposed for attaching the code sized grounding wire, if grounding a service entrance. Any doubts on this subject are clearly realized when fence posts are used as ground for electric fences. In the summer when the soil dries out there is less conduction from the post to the cow's feet. That's when you find that your hot wire will non longer retain your animals, unless they have trained themselves to stay away from it and not test it. However, that's also the time "the grass is greener on the other side" and the fence does in fact get tested and the cows out.
 
When we increased the service at the shop the inspector had us put in a "Ufer ground".

It was a couple of ground rods buried in a ditch behind the building. Not sure why he wanted it that way, it's not so rocky they couldn't be driven.
 
I think he gave you the wrong name.
Ufer ground is grounding to the rebarreled in the concrete footings. It seems concrete absorbs moisture so with the increased moisture it helps ground. Ground rods, even laying down, would still be grounding electrodes.
 
Texas, good writeup. The 10 footers where used on disturbed soil, as with new construction. Non-disturbed soil got 8 footers.
 
Another item missed on ground rods is they should be located outside the eaves so there is moisture, putting them right next to house can be too dry.
 
Many years ago over at a neighbors farm in REALLY dry weather you could hear his ground rod buzzing in the ground next to the barn! Sounded like a ticked off snake down the hole. We drove I a new copper rod a couple of feet out and it fixed the buzz, and his fences started working again.
 
Some commercial and industrial services require Deep Earth Grounding so that computers and industrial control systems work without interruption. Deep Earth Grounding relies on jointed ground rods that are driven as deep as necessary to achieve a 3 point Fall of Potential reading of 1 ohm or 250'. If 250' doesn't get them to 1 ohm, additional ground rods will be driven until they achieve 1 ohm. If all that is available is solid rock, they will hire a hole drilled in the rock as deep as is necessary to put their ground rods down far enough to achieve 1 ohm. Several years ago I visited with a Deep Earth Grounding contractor that had several patents on his methods of Deep Earth Grounding. IIRC, he said he had jobs scheduled out about two years ahead at the time I talked to him.
 
Normally I would say it is not legal but since it is laying on that metal chimney it's good to go,, LOL.

At my place each outbuilding had a #6 wire bare wire leading outside and going underground so I assumed (bad thing) things were at least close to code. Wife was doing her landscape thing and dug up what she though was a pipe but it was the grounding rod that they had laid flat and covered up with 6" of dirt, a situation that we have since corrected.
 
Guido,
Lets stir the pot, you know you are light a fuse whenever you mention the G word?

Think about the word legal, means is there a law you are breaking.

NEC, The C word is code, so you're asking a legal questions. Will the code police give me a ticket for this code violation, doubt iy? I'm sure the YT POLICE WILL ARREST YOU AND PUT YOU IN JAIL. Better fix it.

I've never seen or heard of an agency that comes around inspecting electrical issues after they have been inspected when new. Only exception I can thing of. If there is a house fire in the city, the city inspector has the authority to red flag the building until it brought up to code.

So I'm dot sure anyone is going to get arrested (legal?) for code violations, unless someone gets killed and prosecutor thinks your actions are responsible for a death. Then you could be in deep doo doo. geo
 
To code, legal, safe, and works are terms that are often used interchangeably but as John T has often pointed out they are all distinct and different. A person also has to remember that with electricity what is safe and is unsafe is not diveded by a distinct line but indeed some peron's, or group of persons perception of "safe enough". This is why the code keeps changing. It is certainly not because electricity has changed and neither has what will kill you changed. This is borne out by the fact that even with tremendous upgrades in the grounding code people continue to find way to get killed.

I well remember Dad's old cast aluminum Skill saw with a 2 wire cord that would flat nail you if you were well grounded. In this day and age a person would throw it in the trash or sue the manufacturer, back then you didnt use it when your feet were wet and cussed it when it shocked you anyway. The 110 in our shop and barn was wired with a single insulated conductor surrounded by a metal sheath that served as the neutral,,,Its a wonder more didnt die,,,
 
Code for new construction here requires a 20ft. rerod placed in the footings with the ground wire connected to it.
 
Scary as it sounds it looks better than what was on the first house we bought.
3 feet of rusty re-bar pushed 1 foot into the dirt with the wire loosely wrapped around it.
According to the previous owner a new fuse box had been installed a few years prior.
The electrical work inside the house looked first rate, guessing the guy that did the work must have been sick the day school taught the subject of ground rods.
 
Oh my, even though electrical and legal questions draw more opinions then most other topics, if you throw in the "G" word it gets even worse lol A few thoughts:

Some cities/towns/counties have passed and adopted certain "versions" of the NEC (NFPA 70 if I recall) and therefore made them into what can be called "law" by doing so, some cities like Chicago I believe have their own Electrical Code. Iffffffff the NEC has been adopted and ifffffffffffff the jurisdiction is required to perform an inspection on new construction, they wont issue a permit until the installation has passed. Violate it and there can be stiff penalties. So in a sense, it can be called "LAW", at least that's what I as an Attorney and retired Electrical Power Distribution Engineer consider it, take or leave that at your own risk and peril and do however you please and call it law or not or anything you wish!!! For those who don't think something is legal or the authority who has made the NEC into law in your area is harassing you, then sue the city and the NEC and defy their orders and see how that goes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have attended NEC training and update seminars taught by trained experienced professional electrical experts who serve on the board, and no offense to Billy Bob or anyone here, its my opinion they know more about electrical safety then non electricians and non techs and non engineers. Just because a non electrical trained person does NOT understand electricity or the NEC does NOT mean they are right and the NEC is wrong!!! HOWEVER if anyone has a safer method and can prove, it take it up with the NEC because many of their changes and updates is because someone was killed or a house burned down so I'm sure they will be glad to listen.

A buildings electrical service requires "grounding" and when I practiced the NEC required the incoming Utility Neutral be bonded to "all readily available grounding electrodes" which could be comprised of items such as metallic buried utility pipes,,,,,,,,,,,building structural steel,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"made electrodes" such as rod(s) driven into mother earth when no other electrodes were present such as in some residences.

What I call "earth grounding" of the Neutral (on HV Primary as well as LV Secondary) is more for lightning and surge protection and to tie the grid to one common low voltage reference MOTHER EARTH. Neutral Ground BONDING is to provide a single point connection of Neutral (a GrounDED Conductor) and the Equipment GroundING Conductor) so the EG can provide a dedicated low impedance current return path FOR FAULT CURRENT ONLY while the Neutral Grounded Conductor is there for normal return current NOT fault current.

Its impossible to explain and except non electricians to understand from a paragraph what can take books and years of study to understand so feel free to do as you wish and if this isn't right take it up with the NEC not me, because I cant guarantee at all I'm right, its been years and the NEC has changed so this may be all wrong, dont have a calf if it is now, I sincerely try my best.

John T BSEE, JD
 
Butch,
I was just answering the legal question. How many times do people fail answer just the question? Yes it legal, no it isn't legal!

Instead mention "GROUND" and the NEC preachers give the flock a fire and brim stone Sunday school lesson on the sins of improper grounding. Repent, and be saved from electrocution or you will be burned because you let Bubba near your wires.

Bubba gets no respect. Bubba could tell stories where he taught his college educated bosses a few lessons on how things work in the factory.
 
Top should be below grade and left with a small pile of soil the inspector can push over it with his shoe when done inspection. Conductor should be larger . That looks like some bare #8 swimming pool ground. Rod is not buried ; does nothing..
 
If you are thinking of buying the property, I would add an inspection clause to the purchase offer.
 
Thanks, I thought it was still true even though I'm NOT up on the latest codes by any measure lol

John T
 
Hello Geo-TH,In,

You are assuming WAY too Much! #1: It is NOT my house! Two: No one lives there. Three: It is Not A permanent ground. Most of all I do KNOW better! And it was posted with Bubba as a consultant.............HELLO! By the way it is a work in progress. See the picture. The left wall has the service entrance, fallow the ground wire to the left it is the one going to the rod on my first picture.
Years back, mid 80's, The Mobil terminal I was working at, upgraded the electric service for the rack. 100Kw as I recall, mostly 3ph motors for the loading rack and the rest offices and repair shop service. Like some one stated it required a 1 ohm ground, I don't recall what the code required. Those were the Mobil engineers specs for hazardous duty area. I think six or eight rods, can't recall which, to achieve the 1 ohm requirement.
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Guido,
Really, mentioning the G work won't cause a buzz on YT?

Here is the irony about the G word, NEC codes, and government regulations. In the early 80's area planning became a reality in my county, as well as many counties in Indiana. What area planning did, and some complain the government is poking their nose in their business, is put a stop to many things.

1. It put a stop to people from putting a tin can on wheels, single wide mobile home, from being located in any place other than a licensed mobile home park. No longer could put a mobile home in your back yard for MIL. No longer could even build a MIL home on your property that was Zoned R1. No longer could you have a place for your RV or travel trailer with electrical and sewer hook up. Many cried it my property I should be able to do what I want.

2. Before you can build anything, pole barns, room additions, up grade electrical, build a new home, you have to first visit the board of health, get a sewer permit and jump through all requirements.

3. Next you have to go to area planning and see if you can build what you want, where you want, even add on.

4. Final stop is getting a building permit, a building permit is even required for new construction and tearing down a building. Failing to get proper permits, like paying a hidden tax, is a costly mistake.

Some many on YT complain the Federalizes, government oversight, EPA is all bad.

I take the opposite view. My area planning put a stop to People polluting the rivers and stream by putting an end to house trailers showing up in someone's back yard and a sewer pipe dumping raw sewage in the river.

Area planning put a stop to anyone doing an electrical up grade, including mobile homes in back yards, without a proper permit. All electrical work first has to have a green sticker on it before duke will connect power. The building inspector is in charge of green stickers.

In 1990 the newly elected mayor paid off the electrical union by pushing through a city ordnance putting a stop to any electrician that was non Union or non licensed electricians from working in the ciy. Poor Bubba was unemployed, a few even found themselves in court paying a fine, the judges up held the city ordnance. The bubbas couldn't afford to fight it. So for the past 25 years you can't use Bubba as the butt of a joke and no need to be breach NEC.

There is an exception to my area planning rules. People outside the city can do their own wiring. I put in about 12 service upgrades. However you have to be the owner, you have to get a permit, which used to cost $4, last one $100. And most importantly your work will be gone over with a magnifying glass by the county inspector before he puts a green sticker on your meter base. Inspector also inspects the wiring inside on new construction. I think government oversight on new construction is a good thing. Unfortunately they don't really care what you do after they are gone.

If all counties had area planning, using the G word here would be a mute subject. Wiring questions wouldn't be asked.

Are you required to jump through permits and building inspectors where you live? I would hope everyone's work would be inspected.
geo
 
I once saw at a pad mounted transformer a ground cable clamped to a ground rod with a romex connector. Well, that's not quite true, because connector had slipped and it was not really clamped, it just hung there.

Dusty
 

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