Grounding hook up

Need some information.
I have replaced an old fuse panel to my barn, 250 ft from the house. Do I hook up all neutrals to the neutral buss bar, unhook the grd buss bar and hook up all copper grds to the new buss bar , then hook up the grounds to that buss bar. Do I hook up to the separate grd from the main panel or only leave it hooked lo the barn grd rod I am hooking up a 30 amp 110 plug for a motor home located at the barn.

(quoted from post at 19:01:36 07/13/16) Need some information.
I have replaced an old fuse panel to my barn, 250 ft from the house. Do I hook up all neutrals to the neutral buss bar, unhook the grd buss bar and hook up all copper grds to the new buss bar , then hook up the grounds to that buss bar. Do I hook up to the separate grd from the main panel or only leave it hooked lo the barn grd rod I am hooking up a 30 amp 110 plug for a motor home located at the barn.

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You really need to get an electrician to look at your installation.

Around here, all neutrals and grounds are tied into the same buss, which is grounded and tied in to the neutral from the utility transformer. That's here. For an additional 30 amps 250 ft from your panel you need to have a large enough wire that you don't have too much voltage drop. You don't want to burn up a motor due to low voltage with the additional load.

You really need to get an electrician to look at your installation.

Neutral and ground are not the same thing.
Any ground rods?
Underground or over head triplex service ?
Cable size

A lot of unknowns, but for a panel replacement it kind of hinges on what wires are there already. If there is a separate ground and neutral wire then by all means separate them. More than likely there is just one grounded conductor (neutral), and if that is the case then you will want to leave the neutral bonded to the box and ground bars. In either case make sure to have a ground rod.

CAN OF WORMS ALERT LOL here it comes, look out, your question should draw everyone and their brother in law (INCLUDING ME) out of the woodwork lol. The more the merrier I always say, great bunch of folks here.


NOTE from your post: "I have replaced an old fuse panel to my barn, 250 ft from the house." I take it you're replacing the remote barn sub panel NOT the main panel in home that feeds it right?????????????????????

NOTE I'm taking it as you're installing a new 120/240 panel in the barn right???? IFFFFFFFFFF you're only wiring a single receptacle for an RV in the barn THERE ARE RULES EXCEPTIONS making it far less complicated

NOTE 250 feet is a longggggggggg run, you need to figure VOLTAGE DROP into the calculations as far as the size of wire from home to barn

NOTE you may be grandfathered in if NEC matters????? in your area as far as the old three wire versus new four wire out to remote sub panels for 120/240 single phase. If you have three or four wires out to barn MAKES A DIFFERENCE, see 1 and 2 and 3 below:


HERES THE REAL DEAL UNLESS the NEC has changed OR your local jurisdiction hasn't adopted a particular version of the NEC OR you don't care LOL and IFFFFFFFFFFFF you're talking about a new 120/240 panel in the barn that's fed from your homes main panel, the modern way to do it correctly and comply with the latest NEC (again if that matters or you care) is as follows:




1) AT THE BARNS SUB PANEL IFFFFFFFFFF YOU HAVE FOUR WIRES (Two Hots, Ground, Neutral) OUT FROM HOME

a) It needs two separate isolated and insulated from each other Busses, an Equipment Ground Buss PLUS a Neutral Buss

b) The panels case/frame bonds to the Equipment Ground Buss butttttttttt the Neutral Buss does NOTTTTTTTTTTT

c) The OUTGOING white Neutrals all wire to the Neutral Buss (Well DUH)

d) The OUTGOING Green/Bare Equipment GroundING Conductors wire to the Ground Buss (Well DUH)

e) The INCOMING Neutral wires to the Neutral Buss

f) The INCOMING Ground wires to the Ground Buss

g) The Ground Buss is bonded to a Grounding Electrode Conductor (No 4 bare copper) which wires to a Grounding Electrode such as a "made electrode" like a copper rod driven into mother earth



2) AT THE BARNS SUB PANEL IFFFFFFFFFF YOU ONLY HAVE THREE WIRES (Two Hots, Neutral) OUT FROM HOME

IFFFFFFFF the jurisdiction permits it?????????????????????????????? If you only have three wires out from your home and don't want to upgrade to four, you "could" (IM NOT saying yes or no) wire it under the old code and old three wire method to remote sub panels as done for years which is as follows:


a) The INCOMING Neutral wires to the panels Neutral Buss (or a single common Neutral AND Ground Buss if so equipped).

b) The new panel has EITHER 1) A single common Buss where Grounds AND Neutrals ALL attach ORRRRRRRR 2) Two busses which are bonded together with a cross tie bar or wire.

c) OUTGOING Neutrals wire to the panels Neutral Buss (or common Neutral and Ground Buss if so equipped)

d) OUTGOING Grounds wire to panels Ground Buss (or common Neutral and Ground Buss if so equipped)

REMEMBER IF IT HAS TWO BUSSES THEY ARE BONDED TOGETHER IN THIS THREE WIRE OUT SITUATION

e) The panels Neutral (or combination Neutral and Ground) buss wires to a Grounding Electrode Conductor (NO 4 bare copper) which wires to a "Grounding Electrode"



3) IFFFFFFFFFFFFF you're replacing the homes main distribution panel NOTTTTTTTTT the remote barn sub panel:

a) Incoming Utility Neutral wires to panels Neutral Buss ORRRRRRRRRRRR single common Neutral and Ground Buss if so equipped.

b) If new panel has separate Ground and Neutral Busses, they bond together with a cross tie bar or wire

c) Grounds to Ground Buss, Neutrals to Neutral Buss or a single common Buss if so equipped

d) Neutral at weatherhead riser orrrrrrrrrrrrr meter base orrrrrrrrrrrrr panel wires to a grounding electrode.


GOT IT CLEAR AS MUD I'M SURE


DISCLAIMER I'm rusty on the latest NEC so no freaking warranty, you can do as I say,,,,,,,,,,,,ORRRRRRRRR as other trained professional electricians say,,,,,,,,,,, ORRRRRRRRRR as non electricians say,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ORRRRRRRRRRRR what your brother in law says,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT I SUGGEST YOU DO AS LOCAL AUTHORITY AND THE NEC SAYS

Sorry I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I know I missed something grrrrrrrrrrrrrr if so I hope the other fine gents here can add to this and/or correct my likely mistakes.

Best wishes, God Bless all and God Bless the USA

John T Too long retired electrical engineer and rusty so no warranty hear me, this may be right or wrong as rain, don't have a calf, I warned you lol

What do you have now as far as conductors going out there? Ideal would be a four wire . See John T [ patience of a saint ] post about separation. Somewhere on the net there must be a diagram for this.

"[ patience of a saint ]" Thanks dr, unfortunately the first wife may disagree lol. I'm also concerned about that 250 feet as you are, that's a longggggggggggg run.

John T

Well at least he didn't ask about bonding and grounding. A generator.

(quoted from post at 12:52:18 07/14/16) Well at least he didn't ask about bonding and grounding. A generator.

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aybe like me....tough enough to warm up & bond with humans & just never felt close enough to a generator to bond with one. :lol:

Yep and I'm glad lol I have answered that 1000 times and Billy Bob and Bubba freak out when I tell them driving a ground rod creates a potential electrocution hazard according to OSHA and the NEC lol

PS I put a new carb on my Generac 4700 RV Genset and it runs okay now.

John T

I have answered it so much my brain shuts off. When someone ask. Glad you got your gen going.

OK guys here is the set up, I have 4 #6 cu wires in a 2 inch pvc line to the barn fed from a 60 amp breaker. With the old sub panel (round fuses) I had no problems with the small motors ( grinder drill press Tire changer hand tools that I use) from low voltage.
Just not sure whether to hook up ground rod at barn to the ground from the house. Have separated the neutral and ground buss in the barn sub panel.Do I bond the ground buss to the sub panel box?

(quoted from post at 21:04:16 07/14/16) OK guys here is the set up, I have 4 #6 cu wires in a 2 inch pvc line to the barn fed from a 60 amp breaker. With the old sub panel (round fuses) I had no problems with the small motors ( grinder drill press Tire changer hand tools that I use) from low voltage.
Just not sure whether to hook up ground rod at barn to the ground from the house. Have separated the neutral and ground buss in the barn sub panel.Do I bond the ground buss to the sub panel box?

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Use two ground rods and bond them to the barn ground bar ensuring there is no connection between the barn neutral and ground in any manner.
If the breaker panel in the trailer has the ground bonded to the neutral open it or neutral current will flow in the ground system.
A fellow at work has been wondering why his trailer's neutral and ground on the receptacle and plug have been burning yet the breaker did not trip. High resistance neutral on the supply from the utility transformer and a bonded trailer neutral was flowing more current back to the ground system via the incorrectly bonded neutral.

I cant guarantee the No 4, its what was used locally under REMC, and may well have been OVERKILL lol

Hope to see you again sometime in Florida

John T

Thanks for the update, here's my response:


QUESTION "I have 4 #6 cu wires in a 2 inch pvc line to the barn fed from a 60 amp breaker."

ANSWER SUBJECT TO ACTUAL LOAD that's not very big wire for a 250 foot run, excess voltage drop may be an issue.


QUESTION " Just not sure whether to hook up ground rod at barn to the ground from the house."

ANSWER I thought I had that well covered below!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but if not or I missed it, here's the answer again

YES my interpretation of the NEC (no warranty I'm right, too long retired from EE practice) is that any buildings electrical service requires Grounding, so YES the panels Ground Buss "hooks up" (as you asked) to a Grounding Electrode, which can be a "made electrode" such as one or two as your authority may require driven into earth ground rods. Ive read where some gents (not electricians or techs or engineers as I recall) DO NOT ground a separate remote buildings electrical service and rely on the ground wire they ran out from their house, but the NEC says each buildings electrical service requires grounding so I ALWAYS grounded any separate buildings service. DO AS YOU LIKE OR WHAT BILLY BOB SAYS OR WHAT THE NEC SAYS and NOTTTTTTTTTTTTT what I say if you don't like it lol NOTE I guess you realize due to capacitance and inductance of those wires ran side by side for 250 feet out at the barn/shop, the voltage on the equipment ground (which connects to the outer metal case/frame of tools and appliances) can be HIGHER THEN MOTHER EARTH OR THE CONCRETE FLOOR YOURE STANDING ON so it makes sense to me to connect to mother earth to bring the voltage back down HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM



QUESTION "Do I bond the ground buss to the sub panel box?"

ANSWER YESSSSSSSSSSSS any non current carrying conductive (metal) boxes/enclosures are bonded to the Equipment Ground same as metal junction or switch boxes are grounded WELL DUH LOL but DO NOT bond Neutral to the case/frame WELL DUH AGAIN

Hope this helps, this is my professional engineers opinion ONLY it may be right or wrong

John T

JohnT, Aren't main panels ground at the meter and all sub panels should be wired with 4 wire, no grounding rod? Just a simple yes or no? If no please post link to NEC where sub panels should be grounded too. thanks geo.

YES the incoming Utility Neutral is bonded to a Grounding Electrode(s) at EITHER Weatherhead Riser orrrrrrrrr Meter Base orrrrrrrrrrr Panel

YES 120/240 Single Phase Three Wire SUB PANELS are wired with four wire

YES AND NO Sub Panels in the same building DO NOT require connection to their own Grounding Electrode, but Sub Panels in a different Building do since every buildings electrical service requires grounding as I best recall and interpret.

Sorry, you need to look up your own NEC cite, mine is yearsssssssssssssss old


John T
John T

250 feet is long run , I think 30 amp is #10 wire plus for every 50 feet must use
Next size bigger wire , not sure the # 6 wire is big enough for such long run
Can you bring in overhead triplex from a closer point , may be less money,
Also ground rods protect building from lightning , and you from electric shock
Can you imagine a bolt of lighting traveling 250 feet back to your homes
Main panel ? I would consult an electrician , before proceeding any further

(quoted from post at 10:18:40 07/17/16) 250 feet is long run , I think 30 amp is #10 wire plus for every 50 feet must use
Next size bigger wire , not sure the # 6 wire is big enough for such long run
Can you bring in overhead triplex from a closer point , may be less money,
Also ground rods protect building from lightning , and you from electric shock
Can you imagine a bolt of lighting traveling 250 feet back to your homes
Main panel ? I would consult an electrician , before proceeding any further

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For a 120/240 volt in this situation you need quad plex 2 hots 1 neutral and ground.

Dusty

You should not have more than 2% voltage drop in this case. With what you have #4 wire would give you 1.8% drop at 30 amps.

Dusty

JohnT,
Reason I asked is a relative is a commercial union electrician. My building inspector is a retired public service lineman. Both electrician and inspector said no to a second grounding rod at sub-panel in pole barn. The ground at the Main in house is what they require in Terre Haute. That's why I asked if it was really in NEC code. When you get bored you can see if it really is code ..

I'm find out there are things that some states require when it comes to DOT regulations and Indiana doesn't require them. The Fed DOT standards allow states to do more than required. The second grounding rod may be like that where counties, cities or states may require more than necessary.
Have a good day, geo.

(quoted from post at 21:05:40 07/17/16) JohnT,
Reason I asked is a relative is a commercial union electrician. My building inspector is a retired public service lineman. Both electrician and inspector said no to a second grounding rod at sub-panel in pole barn. The ground at the Main in house is what they require in Terre Haute. That's why I asked if it was really in NEC code. When you get bored you can see if it really is code ..

I'm find out there are things that some states require when it comes to DOT regulations and Indiana doesn't require them. The Fed DOT standards allow states to do more than required. The second grounding rod may be like that where counties, cities or states may require more than necessary.
Have a good day, geo.

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Could be but around here there is only one set of bond ever between the utility transformer neutral and ground . The ground system is interconnected with all other ground rods. This of course is with underground services with two live lines, a insulated neutral and a ground.
An over head triplex service with just two live lines and a neutral just totally messes everything up and should have never be allowed when electrical services were first installed. Of course back then grounding didn't mean a whole lot to most folks.

If you look at the trend of wiring codes, it's always to add more wiring, ground rods, special breakers, GFCI, spark suppressing breakers, you name it.

Deep submersible well pumps will work with a black and red only. Then the neutral got added, and finally a ground wire. Of course there's a ground rod at the power panel for the well. And I'm sure there's something new in the last 15 years since I had to mess with the electrics of my well.

Whenever somebody finds a completely unique wiring situation and burns down the building or fry's themselves, the insurance company experts eventually figure it out and that gets passed down to the other insurance companies loss departments to look for. The building departments make an effort to find out about these and update the codes with the next edition.

The insurance companies and the government work together to for a lot of the rules and regulations you have to deal with. When there is a massive car recall, more than likely it started with claims at insurance companies and they were the first to notice there was a problem and the government got involved late in the game.

What neutral on a well pump that is energized with two lines above earth potential Eg 240V ?