(800) 853-2651
SHOP NOW

Any CC permit holders opinion on some smaller CC tools

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
I have had my CC permit for years. My main carry gun had been one of a pair of 1911 pistols ( 45 cal). They are a great gun but are heavy and hard to conceal carry at times. ( think summer and speedos) LOL

I have been looking at some of the newer smaller guns that would be much easier to CC. This gun is not going to be a range gun that I shoot for fun/sport with. I under stand the smaller guns are not the nicest to shoot. I am wanting lighter and smaller. I have kind of narrowed my choices to the following pistols. I am wondering if any of you have these guns??? They all are 380 caliber.

Ruger LCP generation II: I am aware of how the first generation LCP pistol had issues. Even the generation II have a pretty heavy trigger pull, around 8 pounds. They also have a pretty long trigger return. These negatives are offset by the light weight and smaller size.

Glock 42: This is a Glock. Not a real pretty gun but rugged and easy to maintain. This one is actually the one I am leaning towards just because of it having a lighter trigger pull and that seems to make it a more accurate pistol to repeat fire.

SIg P238: This pistol is basically a small 1911. It has the same features/controls like the safety. It seems to be the highest quality of the three pistols. It is a metal framed gun. This is good and bad. It makes the gun slightly heavier but makes it more enjoyable to shoot. Also I wonder about higher maintenance with the metal frame??? This is the highest priced pistol too. Although they all are under $650.

So what do you fellow think??? Do you have any other ideas for a smaller carry gun??? I do not want a revolver. I like having a magazine loading system and have had excellent results/durability with the 1911 semi auto pistols in adverse conditions.
 
I carry a Smith & Wesson Sigma 380 or AMT backup in 380 and both are over 25 years old and wife has a new S&W 380 body guard with lazier . They all are good for what they are intended for close range (25 foot) . My Sigma 380 is almost a copy of the Glock 42 ( magazine is the big difference). Colt makes a 380 that looks like the large 1911.If you like the 1911 Colt at one time made a 380 government that was a scaled down 45 government. The Colt 380 government still bring big dollars used.
 
We have a P238 and have had it back to the gunsmith a couple times for jamming. It seems to not have enough power to cycle if your wrist is not really stiff. We also use a P250 in 9MM which has been flawless but it does have a long heavy trigger pull, it is not much bigger and cheaper to shoot. Son traded a P238 for a .40 cal Smith because his was having issues with jamming also. P238 is a nice feeling gun though for smaller hands.
 
JD, I know you to be a big man, and I suspect you have a hand like mine--which some folks say is an industrial biscuit clamp. Therefore, I don't think you'd like the LCP--you run out of handgrip before you run out of fingers. I know you said .380, but you might want to at least look at the LCP's slightly larger cousin, the LC9. No, I haven't fired it.
 
Your choices are kind of different to me but if I picked one of them it would probably be the LCP. The reason why is because it will fit the best for many different types of concealment, more so than the others, especially when wearing certain or less clothing. I don't own any of your choices but have some trigger time with the LCP and G42 and they are both great but I still like the LCP. I know too many people with various Sig's that complain about them needing to be "wet" to function reliable or finicky to certain ammo.

I don't think trigger pull and reset should be an ultimate deal breaker since this will probably not be a plinker or target practice gun, though it is still important and could always be worked too. In the heat of the moment and close range you probably wont notice the difference in 4lb or 8lb for an example.
 
The sub compacts are intended to be real small, hand grips usually wont cover the whole hand for some or most. I have an M&P shield 40, my pinky doesn't fit, another is my Taurus Judge compact and no pinky on it either, I can grip and shoot them fine even with HP, 45LC or slugs. For some people there needs to be a slight compromise for deep concealment or lightened carry, these guns are for a specific use, definitely not for the range or target practice.
 
If you like the fell of the 45 and have large hands take a look at Kimbers line pistols 45s-380s and they have a line of compacts.
 
You might also want to look at the Kel-Tec 380. At 8.3 oz. is the lightest 380 out there. I'm very happy with mine- you can carry it in a jacket pocket without being obvious, it shoots straight enough for its intended use, and has never had any problem with jamming, regardless of ammo used. And price is in the 3's, or was when I bought mine. Pretty small for large hands, but you can buy a longer clip that extends the grip at the bottom.
 
I decided to move away from the 380 and go to 9mm. Most of the guys in the club are carrying the S+W Shield in 9mm. 7 oz heavier than the 380 class. It fits better in the hand and is more controllable in my opinion. Conceals just fine.

John
 
Stay away from the GLOCK 42 .380 cal. go with the GLOCK 43 its a 9mm same size as the 42, the 42's were not very good with a lot of malfunctions I got the 43 last summer have shot a couple hundred rounds not one problem I'm very happy with it I carry IWB " In Waist Band " Good luck on what ever you get!!!
 
I too, would recommend trying the Ruger LC9S. I have pretty good sized hands, and hated shooting the wifes Walter PPKS 380. In my opinion 380s are just to small for me. I have shot her LC9S some, and it is a hoot to shoot, plus its small enough that she can conceal it, so I am pretty sure a bigger guy could get by no problem. Plus its a strikerfire, that makes the trigger a lot lighter, and shorter.
My opinion again... Handle them all. I am not a Glock fan. No reason other then I just don't like them. The SIG is a nice handgun, and we have lots of RUGERS!!
 
I have had a number of them but oddly enough my favorite "go to" carry now is a Radom P-64 in 9mm Makarov. Once the springs are changed for American primered ammo the trigger pull is no different from any of my S&W revolvers. More potent than a .380 it is DA, very concealable, robust, reasonably light and inexpensive. The 9mm Makarov cartridge is not too hard to find in hollow point. It is just like a Walther PPK only a few 10ths of an inch larger. The only down side is it is blowback design and thus has a nasty kick but not something one would worry about in a self defense CC gun.
 
Stay away from anything less powerful than a 9mm. If you are proficient with your Gov 1911, you may like an Officers model or a Commander.
 
I've got an Armscor 1911 compact 45 ACP with Hogue grips fitted with a Clipdraw (which eliminates the need for an IWB holster, meaning you don't have to purchase larger trousers for concealed carry). I like having all my fingers on the pistol grip. I just spent four hours perusing the offerings at the Roanoke VA gun show and found nothing I liked any better than what I already have. The 380's and compact 9's (including the Taurus Curve)leave my pinkie dangling. They're compact and easy to conceal but I'm not sure how they would be to handle in a crisis situation.

I have a SCCY 9MM that is fairly compact yet all my fingers fit on the grip. It's lighter than the compact 1911 but a little more bulky due to the double stack magazine. The SCCY is priced pretty reasonable, I paid $229 + tax which makes it price competitive with the minisicule Kel-Tec's and Rugers.
 
Ruger LCP. Easy to conceal and in an emergency you probably will have about a 10 ft. shot, and anything is better than throwing rocks.
 
I had a Colt Commander in 9mm and it was a good carry piece. Unless you are a big frame person the 45ACP can become a bit heavy. I know I had to carry one while attached to the US Treasury Dept/Coast Guard back in the '50s
 
I hear good things about the ruger and the S&W Shield, as well as the sig. I've shot a Taurus PT Slim in .40, it was too much power in something that small for me and like with all of them the grip is too small for my hand. Given a choice I'd look at a 9mm for the availability of ammo and tamer recoil. However the .380 has very similar ballistics as the 9mm, albeit a bit slower.
 
The average distance in a confrontation is 21ft. and will be basically point blank shooting. My AMT 380 backup is as small as the LCP but a little heavier because its all metal except for the plastic grip panels. The small 380s have been around for some time but have just became real popular in the last few years.
 
Wife & I both have S & W Bodyguards (380) and with the laser. Great little gun for carry. Very easy to conceal. With the laser I can empty the magazine rapid fire in a 3 inch group from 10 yards, more than adequate to stop a bad guy. Slow down the rate of fire and you can shot any size group you are capable of. I have very large hands (6'5" - 215) and it's a little small but I can live with that given the ease of concealment. It's not a gun for plinking but as a CC weapon I give it high marks.
I have a Ruger 9mm at home but would never dream of using it for CC, just too big & heavy.
 
Pretty much any of the polymer pistols are pretty good anymore. I have an Springfield XDS which I carry all the time. In the car, shopping and working around the property. I have several friends that have S&W Shields or one of the Ruger subs. All of them are great. I would look for one that fits your hand a has what every type of safety system you like.
 
If you are not familiar with the Glock grip angle make sure you get familiar with it before you find yourself shooting the streetlight above the bad guy's head.
 
Interesting choices, JDSeller--all 3 are proven guns, but all 3 have significant differences from each other. Of the 3, my choice (backed up by the fact it indeed is, and has been my chose for several years now) would be the LCP. Simple controls--just draw, point and pull. Yes, you are going to have to adjust your grip, but I know several petite gals with LCP's who also can't fit more than two fingers on the grip and do just fine with theirs--it's the price you pay for concealability. Yes, a 9mm is better, and a .45 is better yet, but a 12-gauge is better than any of them and a 155-mm howitzer is better still, but considerably harder to conceal in a pocket. You've got to draw the line somewhere, and there's plenty of real-world data to back up the fact that a .380 with proper ammunition doesn't give away as much in fight-stopping power as the uninformed would have you believe. The Glock will gain you an extra round and a bit more grip, but I can't give you any first-hand information on it so I'll hold off passing on other people's opinions--there's plenty of them out there, good and bad, for you to read yourself. My major issue with the Sig/Colt design is one of safety--it's rather dated, and I, personally don't like the thought of carrying a pistol that has a manual safety (and ONLY a manual safety), with no firing pin block, no trigger block, no grip safety and no double action capability. That essentially limits you to carrying it cocked-and-locked (with no trigger or grip safety as a fail-safe) or hammer-down (and resting right above a live primer), requiring thumb-cocking before use. Neither of those strike me as being particularly safe or practical for a concealed-carry, last-ditch carry weapon--I realize others may feel differently, but it's not something I'm comfortable with and I've been carrying for decades. Add that to a heavier gun with no more capacity than smaller, lighter, safer choices, and it puts it out of the running for me.
 
Son-in-law has a Ruger LC9. He's happy. I have shot it, am impressed. Wife has a Taurus PT709. Helped select it, and seems to be a good unit. Chose it specifically because of size, particularly width and carryability. Performance has been good. Happy with our choice.
 
Number one thing is get the one that fits your hand good enough so as not to dig a groove in the skin between your thumb and Index finger.
 
I would look into a Smith and Wesson M&P Shield I have one its nice and light it comes in 9mm or 40 its pretty small to compared to a 1911 and its under 400 dollars.
 
Look at and shoot a Colt stainless Defender. Even slimmer and faster if you go with smooth Ivorite grips.
a213996.jpg
 
I have done a lot of shooting over my years on this chunk of rock , at one time i did shoot comp. but mostly rifle and long range stuff . But there was a time that i had to learn hand gun shooting . No i do not set and read ever gun Magazine on the book shelf's . But one thing that myself have learned is i did not like the 1911 , that is just me . What i did learn was that a six gun was NOT the gun to have in a real gun fight , don't ask . But it was what fit me at the time and the main thing was i could hit at what i shot at. My #1 daughter who has always been sorta anti GUN and would never let me teach her how to shot called me one day last fall before Thanksgiving and said DAD i NEED you to teach me how to shoot. Well dear old Dad about fell out of his chair with those words coming from someone that would never even touch a gun of any kind . After some questions of why she wants to NOW learn how to shot sshe tells me that some wacko walked in her back door this past fall and walked thru her kitchen and dinning room and just stood there stearing at her while she was on the couch in the living room watching T V . Now lucky for her he just stood there for a couple min. and then left on his own but this made her realize that we do not live in a perfect world and there are nut cases out there . So NOW she wants to learn how to shot . So we went shooting with five different hand guns , a 22 six gun , a Sig 380 , a S&W 38 Spec. and a 9 mill M&P , S&W mod.19 in 357mag. This gave her a chance to learn on how the touchy feely of each weapon and the recoil of each. Then came the well what should i get , Because so and so said that i should get this one and so and so said no i should get this one and my bother says no she should get a S&W small frame hammerless revolver in 38 special. My avice was that we should go and see what FELT GOOD in her hand . Pick one that fits , ease of operation that you can operate load with ease and simple . She kept asking me what i liked and i told her so when we went to look on Saturday after thanksgiving we went to the largest gun store around that has the largest selection of guns of all kinds . The hand gun case is about 100 feet long and has probable every one made in it in all cal. From the cheap ones to the ones that you look at the price tag and think i could buy a car for the price of that one. So we stated the tochy feely thing with everything in the 380-9 mil. in semi auto to a revolver . When she got done finger printing everything once we went back and started all over again on the ones that were her first choice andhad the poor guy dig all of them back out of the case and set them all up to do this again and do a side by side . Now that she had the Blueing about half wore off on the second round we went thru round #3 and it came down to what she felt the most comfortable with as to how it felt in her hand and ease of operation and her choice was a Ruger SR 9 C in 9 mil. Now i told her that she needed to shot one first to see how it shot before she plunked down 409 dollars Amrecain plus tax. Like i told her anybody can put rounds on a paper target for one it does not move and two it is not trying to kill you . You weapon needs to feel like it is part of you and you need one that will always funtion in all weather and your shooting should be dead on on a point and shoot not lets make sure we are doing the propper frountal stance and BOTH hands placed just wright on the gun - weapon . Your TARGET that is on two legs and wanting to do you harm is not going to give you the chance .
 
Fellows You have got me to thinking about this!!!

I just happened to see the smaller LCP advertised and then started looking at the smaller guns. MY Colt 1911s, in 45 ACP, are just getting to heavy to comfortably CC in the summer months. I am a firm believer that CC mean just that. I think open carry or poor concealed carrying is not the best thing to do. The large frame 1911 is just hard to CC very well.

I looked up the LCP 43 last night. It is just a little bit larger than the LCP 42. The small weight difference would not be an issue since I am sure my 1911s are twice as heavy as any of these light guns. I am now leaning towards 9 MM just because of ammo cost and availability. It seems that 380 ammo is twice as high as the 9 MM.

This would be a hard choice for me. I have made crap out of 9MM for years compared to the 45 ACP ammo. LOL (I guess the old saying watch what you say as you will have to "eat" your words at a later date applies here.) I still think the 45 ACP is the best for just pure stopping power. The trouble is I find myself not CC at times just because of the size/weight issue with the 1911s. That is why I am looking at the pocket carry guns. If I am dressed to where I can holster CC I will still more than likely just carry my 1911s.

Even thought I have carried the 1911s for decades I am not sure how I would react in a close quarter firing situation. Meaning would I think about the safety soon enough at a 20 feet firing distance??? Your only going to get one chance in that distance. IF you "forget" the safety your gun just became a club. So the guns with the trigger lock/safety are making me lean towards them.

The LCP 43 is really catching my eye since my original post. I will have to go and "handle" both models to see which one fits my hands/needs best.

Another reason I am thinking of these lighter smaller guns is my wife. She is not gun shy but she rarely will shoot any of my heavier/bigger guns. They are just too large for her to shoot comfortably because of recoil. I am thinking a smaller 380 would work better for her. I am also thinking about this as something we can do together. There is an indoor range in Dubuque. I am thinking kind of a date night. LOL Go shot some and then stop an eat on the way home.
 
If you're now leaning toward 9mm with a trigger safety, you're looking for a Ruger LC9s. Make sure it's the LC9s, not LC9--several fundamental improvements went into the LC9s.
 
Boy oh boy JD, you really know how to treat a girl right! "Com on baby lets go to the gun range...then we can stop and get a bite, watta say sound romantic. lol just funning you gobble
 
Unless your wife has large hands or you have small ones I don't think you'll find one that feels good to both of you. I gave up on small ones years ago because I don't feel like I can control them well enough with 1 & 3/4 to 2 fingers on the grip. Good luck with your search.
 
Tom my wife's family came from the HILLS/Mountains of West Virginia. She was raised around guns. She is a much better shot with a shot gun than I am. We used to skeet shoot and she would beat me hands down. She used to have very quick reaction times. Since her heath issues she has not been doing anything like that. I do believe in CC for protection but also think it would be good for her to have something "new" to do/master.

What woman would not like guns and food??? LOL
 
Just went through this myself.
If you like 1911 style consider a few that are made as 380acp.
I just ordered a Bersa 380 Thunder with a crimson trace lazer.
Assuming you don't where skinny tight cloths no need for a mouse gun.
 
2X on the Kimber .380's. As a civilian, shoot someone, or even shoot at someone, who is beyond the effective range of the .380, and expect the fight of your life to keep yourself out of jail.
 
My everyday carry gun (and I do carry it everyday all the time for the last 7+ years) is a S&W 360PD in .357 magnum. Its small and lightweight so it easily fits and conceals in your pants or jacket pocket, or I can carry it in a tuckable IWB holster. Give you 5 shots of full on .357mag if you want the knockdown power and actually isn't bad to target and practice with loaded with .38spls.

I have other handguns that I carry on occasion. But personally I've found that if the gun isn't comfortable and if you can't almost forget your carrying it then chances are you will leave it at home... That's why the little airlite S&W J-Frame is so comfortable that its my go to carry gun.
 
Tractor vet there is one thing you can do with hammerless revolver that you can't do with a semi auto is shoot while gun is still in a jacket pocket. You can't do that with a semi auto because it will stove pipe.
 
My daily CC is a Bersa 380 Thunder, very concealable and reliable. With my size no one ever knows its around.
 
I knew I found my wife when she bought me a Model 94 30-30 for Valentine's day when we were dating.
 
380's have a bad rap for jamming,round here they are called the little lady's gun.....they will still kill you!! we have glock,sig,DB9 and ruger 9mm what ever we take with use. wife likes the DB9 and sig I don't care, also carry 38, 357,22 revolvers what ever I am doing for the day. farming I like the 22 and a hi-po in cab of tractor, truckin 357 or 38 in a holster on the side of shifter so I can reach it no problem and still carry a 9 inside my pants. what ever gun you like they all kill
 
Yep you are 100% correct , But i have never or will never carry in a pocket . nothing i have will work in a pocket . If i carry i use a shoulder holster for the most part . Not many like a shoulder holster . I am comfortable with one and it works well with my old back up that has seen many years of service . I WAS going to order myself a new gun yesterday and with full approval of the War Dept and only to find out that the one i wanted is now not available anymore . SOOoooooo i am sorta Bummmed out So ok we will get a new holster for the OLD one , nobody makes a new shoulder holster for it anymore So i will have to modify what i have to make the fit better.
 
(quoted from post at 00:58:40 02/07/16) JD, I know you to be a big man, and I suspect you have a hand like mine--which some folks say is an industrial biscuit clamp. Therefore, I don't think you'd like the LCP--you run out of handgrip before you run out of fingers. I know you said .380, but you might want to at least look at the LCP's slightly larger cousin, the LC9. No, I haven't fired it.
Click to expand...

That is the very reason I could never really be comfortable with ANY .380. They're simply too small to fit my hand. I've fired a .45. Way too much recoil. Likewise with a 10mm. I LIKE the recoil of a 9mm. Right now, I've got my mind set on owning a Ruger SR9.
 
(quoted from post at 00:58:40 02/07/16) JD, I know you to be a big man, and I suspect you have a hand like mine--which some folks say is an industrial biscuit clamp. Therefore, I don't think you'd like the LCP--you run out of handgrip before you run out of fingers. I know you said .380, but you might want to at least look at the LCP's slightly larger cousin, the LC9. No, I haven't fired it.
Click to expand...
i carry the lc9 and its great for me .my wife has the lc380 same as the lc9 but a .380
 
If you like the SIG P238, check out the pistol that those are designed after, the Colt Government Model 380, or one of the Colt Mustangs. The Government model is a 7 shot, which gives you a whole hand grip 9vs letting the pinky hang off), and had just a touch longer barrel than the Mustang. It's an all metal gun, but they did make a version with a light weight lower frame.

The Mustang has a little shorter barrel than the Gov model, and is 5 shot -vs- 7 shot.....Unless you get a Mustang Plus 2, which is 7 shot, with the shorter barrel.

My wife and I both have one for CC, and we love them.

Now if you want a bit more punch, SIG now has basically the same pistol in a 9mm.
 
JD Seller: I think you're mixing metaphors here--do you mean the Glock 42 (.380) and Glock 43 (9mm) or the Ruger LCP (.380) and Ruger LC9 (9mm)? As I can talk with some experience about the Rugers and cannot give you first-hand experience with the Glocks, I'll add that the Ruger LC9s (striker fired) seems to have pretty much taken over the market--I'm not sure if Ruger's even making their "original" hammer-fired LC9 anymore. Ruger also makes a LC380, which is the same frame size (and 7-shot magazine) as the LC9s, but in .380, which gives you the best of both platforms--the .380's lower recoil and the LC9s's larger grip. I'm also in firm agreement with you on the fact that "concealed carry" means exactly that, and am willing to take a step down in magazine capacity and caliber in order to carry a firearm that doesn't require extensive wardrobe modification in order to be concealed. NY's laws being among the most restrictive in the nation means that open carry isn't a viable option, so it's even more important than ever to make sure your concealed carry weapon STAYS that way.

One other note--you have nothing to apologize for taking your wife to a gun range--I've been outshot by plenty of women, including the wife of one of the forum members here (who I know will read this, chuckle, and show it to her, but that's OK--I had a good time regardless!), and I know lots of gals who I'd trust with a gun before plenty men of my acquaintance. Nothing says "I love you" like giving someone the tools and training to save their life when you can't be there to do it for them, and I've had many, many enjoyable range and hunting days with female companions of all shapes, sizes, and ages. With that said, one common misconception I see people make is that a woman should have a small gun because they don't like the recoil of a larger one. In actuality, I've found the opposite to be true--the weight of a larger gun works to absorb recoil and a larger grip allows better control of what recoil there is. In addition, more slide mass (assuming based on your original criteria we're only discussing autoloaders here) means there's less need for a heavy recoil spring, which in turn makes it easier to rack the slide--something that can be quite difficult in some of the small blowback-operated guns. Obviously there's limits to this, and a smaller caliber is still often a better choice, but don't automatically zero in on the smallest gun you can find--it often won't be nearly as comfortable to shoot as a larger one.
 
If he would want a colt 380 government he will have to find a used one because Colt stop building the 380 government in the late 90s.I have used the 380 government and a very accurate gun and easy to hold on target in rapid fire. I have been looking at a Sig 290 (9 mm) but would like try one before buying one.
 
I bought a Kimber Solo in 9mm last year and like it a lot. Small enough to fit in my back pocket or coat pocket and shoots well. Light and easily concealed, yet powerful.
 
380 is a very common law enforcement round in Europe.


Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins.
 
I've never had issues with my LCP, except for the trigger pull. But you have to remember it's a DA and you're cocking the hammer also when you pull the trigger.

I have another .380 that is picky about ammo. Anything but Remington ball and it "stovepipes" on the last round every time. The LCP will eat, without complaint, any of the various brands and configurations of ammo I've tried on the other one.
 

I got my gunsmith degree a few years back not that this makes me an expert but here is my 2 cents.

The Ruger LCP 380 actually hurts to shoot. Tried the one my FIL bought before he died. One of my best friends has a KelTec 380 and it hurts too. Same friend had to send in his Ruger LC9. These are not holding up very well.

If you are looking for an inexpensive smaller 380 you should look at the Bersa Thunder. Everyone that has them likes them. They are not one that you will write books about but then again people do not complain about them either. Just a good solid little firearm.

If you get one of these I would recommend putting on the Bersa Rubber molded grips. My wife has one of these are likes it real well. BIL bought one and likes his. Same friend that has the LC9 fail now has a Bersa Thunder. My brother has one. Two of the ladies at church have them as well.

All have been very reliable and accurate enough. These hold 6 rounds (a 7 round mag is available) and conceal very easily.

Another good option if you are willing to spend a bit more is the Ruger SP 101 revolver. This is a 5 shot 357 mag. I have this one with the 3 inch barrel loaded with 38 specials. It also is lighter than my 1911 carry model and conceals very easily.

Just a couple for consideration.
 
I also prefer 1911, but my every day carry is the Ruger LCR-357 magnum. It is hard on the wrist with magnums, target practice with 38's. carry with magnums, figure the wrist won't hurt until it's over if I ever need to use it. Very easy to conceal, with lots of punch if needed.
 
Ronnie--Look at the Colt Pockletlite 380 Stainless with the bottom part being aluminum. The stainless part is machined out of a stock piece of steel. you can also get it with the Polymer bottom half...............I went with the Stainless and Aluminum..................
 
(quoted from post at 14:18:17 02/08/16) I also prefer 1911, but my every day carry is the Ruger LCR-357 magnum. It is hard on the wrist with magnums, target practice with 38's. carry with magnums, figure the wrist won't hurt until it's over if I ever need to use it. Very easy to conceal, with lots of punch if needed.
Click to expand...

I have the Ruger SP-101 in 357 mag. Yes, it CAN be hard on the wrist with factory ammo, but if that same ammo is reloaded with a slower burning powder, such as Hodgdon Longshot, it becomes considerably more user friendly while accomplishing the same task.
 
Rustyfarmall;

For personal protection, it's generally considered legally risky to alter factory ammunition in any way, the same as using your own reloaded ammunition. It doesn't have to make sense---that's just the way it is.

As far as slower burning smokeless powder making a load "more user friendly while accomplishing the same task", that's not possible unless you narrow the definition of same task to the extent that it wouldn't actually be the same thing. What makes firing the revolver hard on the wrist is the recoil. The same bullet moving at the same muzzle velocity is going to produce the same amount of recoil. To produce less recoil, the bullet is going to have to be lighter or slower. Neither of those changes can really be considered accomplishing the same task. It they were, then you could just as easily claim that a way to reduce recoil in a .357 revolver would be to just use .38 special cartridges because they accomplish the same task. Clearly, they don't.

Stan
 
(quoted from post at 19:34:31 02/08/16) Rustyfarmall;

For personal protection, it's generally considered legally risky to alter factory ammunition in any way, the same as using your own reloaded ammunition. It doesn't have to make sense---that's just the way it is.

As far as slower burning smokeless powder making a load "more user friendly while accomplishing the same task", that's not possible unless you narrow the definition of same task to the extent that it wouldn't actually be the same thing. What makes firing the revolver hard on the wrist is the recoil. The same bullet moving at the same muzzle velocity is going to produce the same amount of recoil. To produce less recoil, the bullet is going to have to be lighter or slower. Neither of those changes can really be considered accomplishing the same task. It they were, then you could just as easily claim that a way to reduce recoil in a .357 revolver would be to just use .38 special cartridges because they accomplish the same task. Clearly, they don't.

Stan
Click to expand...

Handguns of any caliber are most likely to be used at a distance of 25 yards or less. You can argue muzzle velocity all day long, but at 25 yards, a bullet traveling at 800 feet per second, versus a bullet traveling at 1,400 feet per second is about 4 hundredths of a second. Also, a cartridge that is loaded for reduced recoil is usually more accurate due to that reduced recoil. If I can hit the target every time with a bullet traveling at 800 feet per second, but can hit the target only one time out of five with a bullet traveling at 1,400 feet per second, which one would I trust to save a life?

If you are careful and precise when reloading, it is every bit as dependable as factory ammo, and even more dependable than that white box Winchester stuff from Wal-Mart.
 
I have the S&W Defender .380. It's a good small size, easily concealable and light weight. I'm not a big handgun person so can't compare it to anything except a do have a Hi-Point 380 and it shoots about the same, maybe a bit more kick since it's smaller. Don't really have it sighted in yet since I just got it not long ago and haven't had the time to shoot it much.
 
rustyfarmall;

You either misread or misunderstood what I said about using hand loads for personal protection. It isn't that they're less reliable than factory ammunition. It's that hand loads are legally riskier. Legally. Massad Ayoob and other experts in the law concerning self defense shootings warn that in your trial (criminal trial first, then civil trial) following a self defense shooting not all jurors are knowledgeable about firearms related topics. Some people who might make it onto your jury could even be anti-gun, if you can believe that. A prosecuting attorney who needs to beef up his or her conviction rate, or needs to be re-elected in a community with a lot of anti gun voters, may decide to portray you as a crazed gun nut, who was just waiting to get a chance to shoot somebody. For proof, there's your homemade extra deadly killer bullets. It doesn't matter that you couldn't possibly make a bullet more deadly than Federal's Hydrashock, or Remington's Golden Sabre. Your problem is that the prosecuting attorney is on the side of truth and justice, and you're just some guy who shot some other guy.

I don't know what to make of your theory about recoil. You have a point when you say that hitting what you're aiming at with a less powerful round is better than missing with a more powerful one. That isn't precisely the claim you made in your earlier post, but I'm willing to call it good. Okay?

Stan
 
(quoted from post at 21:37:39 02/09/16) rustyfarmall;

You either misread or misunderstood what I said about using hand loads for personal protection. It isn't that they're less reliable than factory ammunition. It's that hand loads are legally riskier. Legally. Massad Ayoob and other experts in the law concerning self defense shootings warn that in your trial (criminal trial first, then civil trial) following a self defense shooting not all jurors are knowledgeable about firearms related topics. Some people who might make it onto your jury could even be anti-gun, if you can believe that. A prosecuting attorney who needs to beef up his or her conviction rate, or needs to be re-elected in a community with a lot of anti gun voters, may decide to portray you as a crazed gun nut, who was just waiting to get a chance to shoot somebody. For proof, there's your homemade extra deadly killer bullets. It doesn't matter that you couldn't possibly make a bullet more deadly than Federal's Hydrashock, or Remington's Golden Sabre. Your problem is that the prosecuting attorney is on the side of truth and justice, and you're just some guy who shot some other guy.

I don't know what to make of your theory about recoil. You have a point when you say that hitting what you're aiming at with a less powerful round is better than missing with a more powerful one. That isn't precisely the claim you made in your earlier post, but I'm willing to call it good. Okay?

Stan
Click to expand...

Doing my own reloading has provided the opportunity to experiment with various types and weights of bullets, as well as different types and grain weights of powder. Because of my experimenting, I have determined that the weight of the bullet has very little effect on recoil. It is the type of powder, fast burning versus slow burning, that makes the difference. As an example, a PMC factory .357 cartridge loaded with a 158 grain semi-jacketed flat nose and the recommended 15.5 grains of W296 powder will result in serious, almost painful recoil. That very same cartridge, when I pull the bullet, dump the powder, and refill with the recommended 7.5 grains of Longshot powder, will result in far less recoil, less noise, and makes the gun much more fun to shoot as well as more accurate.

I have experimented with different bullets, including 105 grain hard cast, 110 grain jacketed hollow points, 125 grain JHP, 125 grain solid copper coated, 158 grain JHP, and 158 grain lead round nose. It is NOT the bullet that causes the recoil. It is the powder.
 
Newton's third law of motion states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If a bullet exits the muzzle of a firearm with a force equal to 1,200 foot-pounds of energy, then the firearm moves in the opposite direction with a force equal to 1,200 foot-pounds of energy. For there to be less recoil firing a cartridge with the same firearm, one of two things has to change: The bullet has to move slower or weigh less. There are no other possibilities. If you reload a cartridge to produce less recoil with the same weight and type of bullet, the bullet has to move slower. Increased accuracy, the importance of bullet placement, the speed of follow-up shots, etc. are irrelevant to the matter of whether the bullet delivers the same energy to the target. If it didn't matter, you could use a .38 special revolver loaded with low velocity target loads for bear hunting, and leave your hard recoiling 350 Remington magnum rifle at home. As long as you were using the same weight of bullet, they would be equally effective, right? That's what you are saying.

Stan
 
(quoted from post at 09:44:48 02/10/16) Newton's third law of motion states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If a bullet exits the muzzle of a firearm with a force equal to 1,200 foot-pounds of energy, then the firearm moves in the opposite direction with a force equal to 1,200 foot-pounds of energy. For there to be less recoil firing a cartridge with the same firearm, one of two things has to change: The bullet has to move slower or weigh less. There are no other possibilities. If you reload a cartridge to produce less recoil with the same weight and type of bullet, the bullet has to move slower. Increased accuracy, the importance of bullet placement, the speed of follow-up shots, etc. are irrelevant to the matter of whether the bullet delivers the same energy to the target. If it didn't matter, you could use a .38 special revolver loaded with low velocity target loads for bear hunting, and leave your hard recoiling 350 Remington magnum rifle at home. As long as you were using the same weight of bullet, they would be equally effective, right? That's what you are saying.

Stan
Click to expand...

The rifle is heavier, therefore, it will absorb more of that recoil. Also, the rifle has a much longer barrel, resulting in much greater accuracy. A .38 special, no matter how it is loaded, cannot be compared to a rifle.
 
(quoted from post at 01:37:39 02/10/16) rustyfarmall;

You either misread or misunderstood what I said about using hand loads for personal protection. It isn't that they're less reliable than factory ammunition. It's that hand loads are legally riskier. Legally. Massad Ayoob and other experts in the law concerning self defense shootings warn that in your trial (criminal trial first, then civil trial) following a self defense shooting not all jurors are knowledgeable about firearms related topics. Some people who might make it onto your jury could even be anti-gun, if you can believe that. A prosecuting attorney who needs to beef up his or her conviction rate, or needs to be re-elected in a community with a lot of anti gun voters, may decide to portray you as a crazed gun nut, who was just waiting to get a chance to shoot somebody. For proof, there's your homemade extra deadly killer bullets. It doesn't matter that you couldn't possibly make a bullet more deadly than Federal's Hydrashock, or Remington's Golden Sabre. Your problem is that the prosecuting attorney is on the side of truth and justice, and you're just some guy who shot some other guy.

I don't know what to make of your theory about recoil. You have a point when you say that hitting what you're aiming at with a less powerful round is better than missing with a more powerful one. That isn't precisely the claim you made in your earlier post, but I'm willing to call it good. Okay?

Stan
Click to expand...

Just FYI- Ayoobs statements have been disproven as far as handloads being a greater risk legally than factory. There has never been a case in which the "handloads are deadlier" offense has been used. In researching Ayoobs claims it was found, by myself and lot of other interested parties, that the only case Ayoob was able to drudge up involved an issue of handloads where the defense completely blew it as far as the evidence, and the issue was not the "deadlier bullet" but one of distance and powder residue. There is absolutely no reason the defense cold not have had the handloads tested the same as factory, he dropped the ball.

That being said, use what you want. My low velocity target handloads with non-expanding, non hollowpoint, old fashioned lead bullets will not be portrayed as high tech super deadly, jacketed, hollow point bullets if, God forbid, things ever go south. And at that, my CC platform is an antiquated S+W revolver!
 


BTW- Ayoob gets paid to be a witness, gets paid by the word and has never, ever been a street cop. When I corresponded directly with him and inquired about his actual time as a police officer he wanted to send me his educational records. I enjoy his writing, but his self aggrandizing "creds" are suspect at best. He is a professional witness.
 
(quoted from post at 07:37:01 02/11/16)
(quoted from post at 01:37:39 02/10/16) rustyfarmall;

You either misread or misunderstood what I said about using hand loads for personal protection. It isn't that they're less reliable than factory ammunition. It's that hand loads are legally riskier. Legally. Massad Ayoob and other experts in the law concerning self defense shootings warn that in your trial (criminal trial first, then civil trial) following a self defense shooting not all jurors are knowledgeable about firearms related topics. Some people who might make it onto your jury could even be anti-gun, if you can believe that. A prosecuting attorney who needs to beef up his or her conviction rate, or needs to be re-elected in a community with a lot of anti gun voters, may decide to portray you as a crazed gun nut, who was just waiting to get a chance to shoot somebody. For proof, there's your homemade extra deadly killer bullets. It doesn't matter that you couldn't possibly make a bullet more deadly than Federal's Hydrashock, or Remington's Golden Sabre. Your problem is that the prosecuting attorney is on the side of truth and justice, and you're just some guy who shot some other guy.

I don't know what to make of your theory about recoil. You have a point when you say that hitting what you're aiming at with a less powerful round is better than missing with a more powerful one. That isn't precisely the claim you made in your earlier post, but I'm willing to call it good. Okay?

Stan
Click to expand...

Just FYI- Ayoobs statements have been disproven as far as handloads being a greater risk legally than factory. There has never been a case in which the "handloads are deadlier" offense has been used. In researching Ayoobs claims it was found, by myself and lot of other interested parties, that the only case Ayoob was able to drudge up involved an issue of handloads where the defense completely blew it as far as the evidence, and the issue was not the "deadlier bullet" but one of distance and powder residue. There is absolutely no reason the defense cold not have had the handloads tested the same as factory, he dropped the ball.

That being said, use what you want. My low velocity target handloads with non-expanding, non hollowpoint, old fashioned lead bullets will not be portrayed as high tech super deadly, jacketed, hollow point bullets if, God forbid, things ever go south. And at that, my CC platform is an antiquated S+W revolver!
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
Case CC electric start questions anyone have information on this.
Replies
15
Views
514
chcase
C
C
Red power hay making tractor?
Replies
7
Views
799
jwal10
J
R
grease gun, my dirty little secret
2
Replies
30
Views
6K
Mark-Mi
M
D
You have a new JD convert. I'm gonna need some on-going advice
2 3
Replies
41
Views
2K
Poppy Johnny
Poppy Johnny
J
More on giving out info
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Leroy
L
Tractor Parts Tractor Manuals

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy

Back
Top