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Home protection tool?

J

JF in MI

Well-known Member
So my neighbor gave me this H&R top break pocket revolver in .38 S&W that belongs to his SIL (used to be father's). The trigger return flat spring was fractured and they wanted to see if I could fix it. No parts available but Wolff Springs makes 'gunsmith' sets that has several that could be machined to fit. He had a full box of cartridges with it and wanted to use it as a home protection gun. While waiting for parts I did some extensive research on it and made an alarming find. It is called a 'H&R 38 S&W auto eject 4th variation' made between 1894 and 1896 meaning that according to BATF it is not even a 'firearm' (being built before 1898). This means that anyone can own, buy or sell it without any paperwork. The big issue is that H&R didn't start making handguns for use with smokeless powder until 1905 so the thing is pretty much useless unless you want to risk it exploding since it was built only for black powder.
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A person could probably load there own ammo for it and be safe. Ya would be better in some ways to use a black powder to load them but bet if you lighten the loads you could use modern powder also
 
I have a similar H & R revolver although much newer and a 9 shot .22LR. I really like it. I had no idea that design was that old. I am guessing mine was built in the late 1970's or early 80's. I wish it was a 6 inch barrel instead of a 4. Mine is blued instead of shiny and has oversized custom grips.
 
JF,

Some years ago I had an H&R pistol that looked just exactly like this one, except it was in .32 caliber. Sweet little pocket gun. Some rascal stole it. I've been meaning to replace it for years, but I haven't done so yet.

Tom in TN
 
There are some people who claim that the black powder pressure, in the lowly 38 S&W, is the same as in the smokeless cartridge (particularly the 145 grain, not the 200) but I would think the initial pressure (while its still in the cylinder) could be dangerous. At any rate I'm not willing to try it. Have not read about anyone doing it regularly.
 
I would only load with real black powder. Even a lite load of smokeless would have a peak pressure higher than black.
 
My Mother had a 32 cal top break she wanted to give me that had belonged to my grandfather who died in 1917. I told her to give it to my sisters son because I already had more than thirty modern handguns, In 1900 they sold for less than four dollars
 
JF: just a few notes: first, as noted by a couple others, I'd be leery about firing it with modern smokeless loads, even light ones. Smokeless powder's pressure curve is different than black powder's, and can create problems, particularly in guns like this with relatively weak locking mechanisms. Second, don't rely on the fact it's pre-1898 to guide you with regard to its legality. Just because that's the federal requirements, it's quite possible the state has more stringent requirements--NY, where I live, certainly does, and Connecticut may as well--I don't know their laws well enough to give you a definitive answer. Finally, in case you're not aware of it, the .38 S&W is a totally different cartridge from the .38 Special. Even the bullet diameter is different--the .38 S&W's nominal diameter is around .361", with up to .364" or so pretty common, while the .38 Special's diameter is typically .357. Therefore, it's usually not advisable to use bullets intended for the .38 Special (or .357 magnum, as they're often the same and have the same diameter in any case) if you're reloading. You CAN find proper bullets for the .38 S&W, but it takes a bit of looking. With all that said, while even in blackpowder loads this cartridge is probably preferable to a .22 or even a .32 for self defense, the combination of an obsolete cartridge and an old, weak, and possibly mechanically suspect firearm all work against using this particular gun as a good self-defense choice. This isn't to say the cartridge itself isn't a viable option--it can be loaded up to near-.38 special ballistics in a more modern gun, and H&R made very similar guns to chamber it (most notably their 925 Defender) clear up to the late 1970's--but nearly any other choice would be better than this one--it's probably best kept as an unfired curiosity.
 
I have a blued Forehand & Wadsworth top break DA revolver in .32 caliber. It looks almost new, but the latest patent date on it is 1877, and Forehand & Wadsworth split up in 1890, so that pretty much dates the piece to between 126 and 129 years old.

I bought it on a small estate auction several years ago for about half what it bluebooks for. It was the only firearm on the auction and I could have been the only bidder with a handgun permit. The auctioneer told me ahead of time that someone had left a bid with him, and that he would bid up to that point. I fired it just enough to determine that it's fully functional, then cleaned it up and put it away.
 
Do as you like, but there is no way I'll ever admit on a public forum how many firearms I own.
 
While viewing this post I membered I have a similar if not the same gun hanging on the inside of my gun safe . Sure enough it appears to be the same with a .360 bore and a little of the chrome plating is missing, also the top release is currently frozen. The gun came from my late father-in-laws estate.
 
Tim; Thanks,I'm very aware of the difference between 38 S&W and .38Spc (have reloaded both). I used to have a Webley Mk IV (I think) in 38 S&W. I also have a C&R FFL and know that it can be traded interstate by individuals without violating federal laws however, yes, after that state laws may differ. Also understand this is not my gun. I can get it working but I wouldn't shoot it and will pass the same info on to the owner. Even if it was of 1905 and later, designed for smokeless, it would be my last choice for 'home defense' (I'm partial to 12ga).
 
Hi Tim;

Aside from the pressure curve differences of smokeless powder from black powder, and the inherently weak lockup of top break revolvers like this one, what would you expect to be problem of reloading cartridges meant to take a .361 diameter bullet with .357 diameter bullets? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you had a perfectly strong modern revolver which was inexplicably chambered for .38 S&W. Reloading .38 special cartridges with .38 S&W bullets, obviously, would have the potential for creating an unpredictable amount of excess chamber pressure as an oversized bullet was pushed through too small a barrel. But I suspect that a bullet which was .004 (or possibly even as much as .008) undersized would probably still contact the lands to some degree. There would be some amount of loss of power, although I suspect that you wouldn't notice it without a chronograph, but I can't see any other actual danger in using a very slightly undersized bullet.

Stan
 
Ya that is one of those gun you would want to make sure was in real good shape to do much with it and make sure you had the loads right
 
Have one just like it a officer had it in case he needed a drop gun. metal used in them was soft so no jacketed bullets. was also known as 38sw short. I personally would not shoot it especially not for defense
 
Use at own risk- a speer hollow based wadcutter -looks like a shrunken flat nosed mini ball- at nominal 357/358 fired in a 363/365 grooved barrel will have some leakage before base expands some to seal. A light load of 2f black powder like 10 grains and a fiber wad between powder and base of bullet- a usable target, demonstration at cowboy shoot out event with old black powder pistols with less collector value. Couple smokeless powder loads using some shotgun powders- don't have the data so have to find other sites- and the old Bullseye light loads might be safe enough. Cowboy shooters using Pyrodex(?) or something in the old top breaks, Old West Scrounger had some Fiochi(?) black powder equivalent loads at times in .44, .38s&W, .38 colt, .32. Old .38 colt with the outside lube bullet, straight cylinder bore is another one for the hollow based wadcutters to semi fit the larger bore, deeper grooves when proper bullets of old heeled/stepped base not available. Other load possible- single round ball over a greased wad, treat it like a old muzzle loader with a large buckshot at nominal .360 squeezed into slightly flared case mouth then neck sized, lubed/wax coat tipped. Couple threads about using Red Dot for light varmint loads, indoor practice in barns. Like some old tractors that can be used to plow gardens yet, a tool that can do a minimum function is better than a display paperweight- even if it ends up being a aperweight. RN
 
Stan: Bore sizes on these old revolvers vary so much that it's entirely possible that a bullet sized for the .38 Special can be dropped right through the barrel without touching the lands. Not only does this lead to poor accuracy but it can also create severe leading as the hot gasses flow around the base of the bullet, causing further degradation in accuracy and possible problems when bullets of the correct diameter are subsequently fired. The .38 S&W was, at one time, at least as popular a round as the .38 Special, mainly appearing in a variety of guns just like the one shown--the "Saturday night specials" of their day--inexpensive, weak, and made to questionable tolerances. That's not to say those are the only guns it appeared in--Britain chambered their well-made Webley mk. 4 for it during WW2, and both Colt and S&W made thousands of guns for it--the S&W most often encountered is the "Victory" model--essentially their M&P or Model 10, which has been sold by the thousands in .38 Special, including many that were re-bored to .38 Special after WW2 and sold on the surplus market.

Decisions about using .38 Special bullets in a .38 S&W are best taken on a case-by-case, or gun-by-gun basis--I've done it successfully for my own Victory, which hits right to point-of-aim with 158-grain .358" lead semi-wadcutters, and shows no signs of leading or other problems, but the Victorys in general were much better constructed than most of the cheapies you often see in this caliber, and are intended for use with smokeless powder, which is what I'm using.
 
Interesting explanation, Tim. Thanks for taking the time. I enjoy the moderately technical aspects of firearms related topics, though not so much with people who would be likely to identify themselves primarily as gun lovers. Discussions on this site are often just about right.

Stan
 
I have a 1911 and the Auto 5. Carried them for so long in the guard. Missed them when I retired. So i went out and bought them. But they wouldn't sell me the M79.
 
It was a cheap gun back in the day, not really known as a valuable collector but still collectible. This gun could shoot reliably (if in good working order) with certain factory ammo or custom reloads with a little research. If that's not enough why would someone rely on it to be the first or last mode of defense before possibly being killed inside your own home. Tell them enjoy the old relic as a wall mounter or safe queen and to go buy a modern revolver, shotgun. Modern revolvers can get pricey but there are many cheaper options.
 
JT , I to have a H and R 32 caliper pistol just like yours. I have fired it several

times but the trigger spring was weak and not return the trigger. So I tryed to pry the

spring open more but ended up breaking the spring. I ordered the Wolff Spring collection

and tryed to fit one of these springs to fit without success yet. Gave up for now probably

will try again later.
 
In its day it was a good home protection tool but today its a wall hanger or a collectors piece if you are a H&R collector. Today there are many better guns and rounds for home protection.
 
Or load it with black powder. But I think I'd just hang it on the wall unless I had a competent "smith" look it over carefully. Even then you would be on your own.
 
From many years of experience, I don't recommend you shoot it. The cylinder lock is a projection on the top of the trigger. When you pull the trigger back the lock part went up against the cylinder and the hand (piece that turns the cylinder) held the cylinder in place.If parts are worn inside the cylinder will not LOCK up properly. Newer models had a slot cut in the cylinder and the lock was independent so the cylinder would lock up properly. This and the IJ were very inexpensive models and did not have the quality of the Colt and S&W.
 
My great uncle had one like it hanging on a nail in the front room. It was hidden
by the feed store calendar.
 
I have one in the condition you describe. Pretty common problem with all guns of that age & (low) quality.
 
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