GFCI installation

John T

Well-known Member
So, when I was in San Diego at my sons new home he asks me to help him with an electrical problem. It seems the GFCI in one bathroom had no power nor was there power in another bathroom. Ima thinkin the GFCI is bad (reset button would not power it up) or tripped and the other non working bath receptacle (NON GFCI) is fed downstream from the LOAD side of the other GFCI. BRILLIANT RIGHT LOL

I don't have any testers or anything with me armed only with a screwdriver, so we go to his Panel where two breakers are labeled GFCI and another Bathroom which we turn off of course assuming that will kill power. I carefully pull out the GFCI and tell him just to be sure power is off I quickly lightly brush the metal part of the screwdriver across a Hot and Neutral and SPARKS FLY Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm the panel isn't labeled correct, the wire is still HOT. He goes down and trips the main afterwhich power is off. YES BILLY BOB SPARE ME, I KNOW I COULD HAVE RIGGED A MORE PROPER TEST DEVICE/METHOD Im just tellin a story here.

SOOOOOOOOOOO I open a new GFCI we bought at Home Depot which was identical (brand and model and type exact same) to his old receptacle. NOTE this one did NOT have the thin yellow tape strip over 2 of the terminals as some Ive seen !!!!!!!!!! Assuming the old one was wired correct (Line and Load) I oriented and wired the new one exactly like the identical old one, you guessed it STILL IT NOR THE DOWNSTREAM RECEPTACLE HAVE POWER

I think AHHHHHHHHHHH HAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I bet the old (and new identical) GFCI is reverse wired with the hot incoming feed wires on the Load side instead of the correct LINE side!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then I put my glasses on and confirmed the past installer (Billy Bob homeowner and NOT an electrician) wired the GFCI bass ackwards.

MORAL OF STORY for any non sparkies out there

Don't believe the labels on a panelboard (I already knew which is why I used the shorting screwdriver test)
Just because an existing GFCI receptacle is wired one way DOES NOT MEAN ITS CORRECT (especially if it don't work lol)
Of course, LINE and LOAD on a GFCI need to be installed correctly

I save son an electricians service call and he thinks old Dad is pretty sharp yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

John T Too long retired EE
 
another thing i learned on a gfci is not to daisy chain the neutral thru the gfci. my neighbor had a garage/shop built and an electrician wired it. he ran outlets down the wall with gfcis on two separate breakers that were seperate legs of the 110 feed. he ran the neutral to the first circuit and the continued the neutral down the conduit to a new circuit from another breaker. anything plugged in would trip both gfcis. electrician couldnt figure out why it was doing that. i started testing voltage and found the the hot hunting and getting up to about 170v, so i knew it was a neutral problem. ran a separate neutral thru the conduit and solved the problem. thats why i always carry my sooper dooper john t approved junior grade electrical checker outer kit with me at all times!!

my junior kit!!

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> I often use this tool from Harbor Freight. Especially in someone else's house. ?Handy Tool

These outlets scanners are great! I have an identical unit from a brand name. Our breaker box and outlets were a horrible mess of mis-labelling. Which meant that every time electrical work was required you had to go down the breakers one by one, clicking them off and on, looking for the circuit in question.

I spent about 1 hour with the scanner and was able to properly identify and label every outlet in the house.
 
You are sooooooooo right SAFETY FIRST I agree. I have a pair of reading glasses but they are so dirty I can barely see even if on lol The labels on the rear of those receptacles is hard to see grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

John T
 
Great tool, unfortunately I was visiting in California and didn't have many tools with me

John T
 

Another example of why post secondary education is required even for the trades. The electrician knew how to run wires but did not understand electricity .
 
The GFCI works by having the Hot and Neutral pass through a Torroid Coil and if all that's flowing out the Hot is allllllllllll returned by the Neutral the magnetic field affects are cancelled (has to do right hand screw rule and North South Magnetism) out so no voltage is induced into the Torroid so it doesn't trip/open the safety relay. HOWEVER if theres an imbalance of around 5 milliamps cuz return current is flowing elsewhere (current induces voltage in the coil) IT OPENS TO SAVE YOUR LIFE. It can take around 30 to 50 milliamps of current through the heart to cause fibrillation

John T
 
I would say Billy Bob previous homeowner must have mis wired the GFCI, cuz I don't think any trained professional electrician would have made that mistake.

John T
 
Boy I understand that! I called my son before we left last wekend if I should bring anything along. His answer, Na. Well, wrong answer, he now has his own multimeter.
 
I hate having no tester. Ever see guys put one finger on ground and one on the hot bus to check it. I'm not doing that . Saw a Public Service guy brush 480 volt bus with his knuckles to check for hot. Not me.
 
Going to respectfully disagree on the idea
that professionals never make mistakes,
everyone does, however that is why people
should always double check their work.
Usually ito the person with a question or a
cell phone call that distracts a person just
enough to lose concentration. Or someone who
didn't know what they were doing like you
said. I used to touch the hot and neutral
together on 120v circuits to trip the
correct breaker, however one time I slid the
wires across each other instead of making a
good connection. That leaves black spatter
marks on the newly painted wall, just a tip,
don't do that!
 
What a coincidence; I just bought one today. I've been doing some plumbing and electrical, and let me just say that I would have done the electrical differently. Hopefully this will help make things a little easier to figure out...
 
Hey John, your post was at the back of my mind last night when I went to check out a friend's rental property. The guy lives in China and was having problems finding anyone who would fix the problems the city found with his place here in Michigan when they did a rental inspection.

I found no fewer than four problems with the GFCI outlet that the inspector failed: The line in and line out were reversed, the polarity was reversed, the line in and line out grounds weren't connected together, and the outlet itself wasn't grounded. I hate to think what other problems are hiding in that house. And this is a fairly new house in an upscale development. It goes without saying that the circuit breakers were mis-marked.

I've learned never to trust the labels on circuit breaker panels unless I put them there myself. One of the worst offenders is my own stepson, who is a licensed electrician; I sometimes wonder if he deliberately mislabels circuit breakers.
 
Yo Mark, WOW and I thought my sons GFCI wiring was bad lol. His only had LINE and LOAD sides reversed but the metal box and ground on the receptacle was properly grounded and Hot and Neutral were correct. I doubt the inspector removed the outlet to verify wiring in your story. Like you, I first trip the supposedly correct labeled breaker but then use a tester to verify prior to other work. Some years back I sold 3 lots off my farm for a guy to build and he bragged on the electrician he had hired so I visited him when he was working and he instantly took a dis like to me when I told him I was a retired power distribution design engineer. He seemed to resent my profession?? Anyway all was fine and I bragged on his good work and craftsmanship as it actually was GREAT. He got mad when I called a Neutral a Neutral insisting it should be referred to as a "Grounded Conductor" which sure it is, but in 40 years of practice and a ton of contractors it was always called Neutral where I lived???

So, he is about done with the job and I visit one day and he shows me how he had installed (beautiful well routed wiring job, one of best I ever saw) a master disconnect and there properly bonded Neutral to a Grounding Electrode and from there to the inside homes main panel carried four wires (2 Hots, Neutral, Ground) BUT IN THE PANEL HE AGAIN BONDED NEUTRAL TO GROUND. When I questioned and called him on that HE NEVER SAID A WORD BUT TOOK HIS TOOLS AND corrected it and left. He still didnt like me lol

John T
 

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