OT-selling a home liability

CKain(MI)

Well-known Member
Am wondering if anyone has experience with selling a home, under typical situation, with sales contract marked 'as is'. Was inspected ! Three years later buyer claims there is a crack in stone foundation that seller obviously knew about and did not 'disclose'.(not proven) How long does the 'disclosure' law last(Michigan) ?? Of course, it is not known if this 'buyer' can get a favorable legal opinion (for him) but it will cost thousands to oppose this in court. ? ?
 
I don't have any answers. But there must be some time limitations on a deal like that. In Michigan, the freeze thaw cycle could cause a crack at any time. If it had to be obvious to the seller, why did it take the new owner 3 years to see it.
this smells like someone not owning up to the responsibilities of owning a home. One more thing, stone foundations are not reinforced concrete. They are no stronger than the mortar holding them together. I'm ranting sorry gobble
 
Yep; it's always somebody else's fault, so sue them! Unfortunate, but that's the kind of people that exist today. Who taught them that?
 
I will only buy and sell through a title company. So when somethings comes up, you are covered.
 
The old "Freedom of Contract" Doctrine has been somewhat diminished over the years due to legislative action, like if a do gooder thinks "Yeah that's what they freely agreed to but I find it unfair so in my superior all knowing wisdom (although not a party to the contract) its null and void" Something like that, get the picture???

Some states have adopted some form of "Sales Disclosure" to in theory protect home buyers from home sellers whereby even a "sold as is contract" may be open (depending on law and facts) for attack and judicial set aside IN SOME SITUATIONS. Similar to above, that's considered by some to be an attack on the old common law doctrine of Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware)

Heres the deal, as an attorney I can likely draft an "as is" contract along with a "Sales Disclosure" that may well satisfy BOTH the common law as is (Freedom of Contract) PLUS any statutory "Sales Disclosure" and be legal and binding. HOWEVER it would be in plain English in bold and capitals (no fine print or legal schmegal lol) with the parties expressly stating they understand and agree and wish to be bound............... Sure, I couldn't guarantee it is 100% enforceable, but I could use all my expertise and experience and study of the states law to give it my best shot...........

HOWEVER if say a Realtor (Or Billy Bob and Bubba advised) used some sort of a standard fill in the blank forms IT MAY OR MAY NOT stand as good of a chance of surviving.

FINALLY to answer your question would require a thorough research of your states laws with regards to as is contracts coupled with any Sales Disclosure Statutes and all the relevant facts. Absent that I wouldn't bet the farm on anyones unresearched opinions be they lay or professional

I personally subscribe to the doctrine of Freedom of Contract PROVIDED THAT theres no fraud or outright misrepresentation or duress or undue influence present etc. However, I see how a well drafted Sales Disclosure can play a part in protecting against a purposely deceptive seller. TAKE IT UP OR ARGUE WITH YOUR STATES LEGISLATORS NOT ME Im ONLY trying to provide a good answer to the post.

As always, the best advice is to consult a local trained professional expert in these situations NOT what I or anyone (absent a thorough research of your states laws and cases) has to say here.

PS in regards to a cracked foundation and sales disclosure and as is contracts THE ISSUE IS NOT IF IT CRACKED LATER BUTTTTTTTTTTTTT IF THE SELLER HAD KNOWLEDGE AS TO A PROBLEM AND PURPOSELY LIED ABOUT IT OR CONCEALED IT. Theres not so much of an "as is" contract problem BUT THERE IS A PROBLEM if theres fraud or misrepresentation or outright lying by the seller and such doesnt require any statutory Sales Disclosure form to correct it, even common law contract principles protect against fraud or misrepresentation. Even a strict Freedom of Contract believer wouldn't support outright fraud in my opinion. If the seller honestly wasn't aware of a problem,,,,,,,,,,, and if the as is contract was correctly drafted,,,,,,,,,,,, and the Sales Disclosure was complete and honest,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if the foundation cracked and I got to choose who I represented ID TAKE THE SELLERS CASE.

NOTE there are always exceptions, so don't take the above to the bank either, it may be incorrect, I cant explain what may take books to describe here in a paragraph and cover every possible situation SO NO WARRANTY consider it as dead wrong if you like.

Happy Labor day yall and God Bless

John T Country Lawyer
 
The inspections were done and buyer agreed to the as is. Personally i would not worry about it until the seller has been served. Besides that the majority of real estate contracts require arbitration instead of court. Seller should read thier copy of the sales agreement.
 
>I will only buy and sell through a title company. So when somethings comes up, you are covered.

George, please explain how a seller is protected from being sued for failing to disclose a pre-existing condition simply by having a title company handle the transaction. Title insurance protects the seller if there's a fault in the TITLE, but offers no protection for a fault in the PROPERTY.
 
Explain to me if a title company puts in the contract, "AS IS, WHERE IS, HOW IS," in the disclosure statement, that should cover your butt don't you think? Unless you are Bill C and question the definition of IS!

The last property I purchased, the title company had to pay because they overlooked something, not the previous owner.
 
In my case, I bought a property so messed up and junk filled, it was sold as "unimproved property". It has three buildings and two sheds. I bought it as is, and paid cash, no one can get a loan on umimproved, so there was no competition.. I did my own inspection, and everything that was bad was just what I expected after my inspection. 4 months and $40K later we moved in to a remodeled house with an all new kitchen and bath, a shop, a cabin, and two small outbuildings..
I took an educated gamble and won, your mileage may vary depending on your resources.
 
George, I'm afraid you made a few bad assumptions.

First, does it matter whether the "as is" statement was drawn up by a title company as opposed to an individual or lawyer? I'd say no; if the verbiage is the same, why does it matter who put pen to paper? By the way, no title company in Michigan is going to draw up an "as-is" disclosure statement, for reasons I'll get to in a bit.

And why should a title company pay because the seller failed to disclose a defect in the property? No title company could stay in business if it had to pay out every time a seller lied about the physical condition of a property.

Lastly, you're under the impression that an "as-is, where is" disclosure statement carries some weight in a court of law. That might be true in the untamed wilderness of Indiana, but laws are different in Michigan (which is the matter at hand). In Michigan, sellers are required by law to disclose in writing all known defects of a property. If you take a look at the property disclosure form at the link below, you'll see there's no place to check off "property sold as-is". There are a few exceptions to the disclosure requirement, but it applies to most sales between individuals.

Now, if a buyer thinks the seller misrepresented the condition of a property, the buyer can sue the seller. However, the burden of proof is on the buyer to show that not only was there a pre-existing condition at the time of sale, but also that the condition amounted to a defect, that the seller knew about it and the seller failed to disclose it. That's a pretty high bar, but nonetheless a person should always take the threat of a lawsuit seriously.
Michigan property disclosure statement
 
Sounds to me like the guy is trying to bluff you into giving him some money.

I'd do what the others have suggested: contact a good real estate lawyer and dare the buyer to sue you for a crack he didn't even notice for three years.
 
The question I have is why are the laws different in Michigan and just about every other state for that matter.

If I buy a property I want to make sure it as a clear title so I hire a title company to check it out.
I want to make sure it is in sound shape so I hire and inspector to inspect it.
Then I let the chips fall where they may.

We are getting to the point where no one will be able to sell anything used.
Heck I buy a 50 year old tractor then 6 months after I get it the engine blows up.
No problem I will just sue the previous owner cause he is the one that sold me a bum tractor.
 
I agree Mark. Title Ins Co's research property transactions and will insure 'legal' title to a said property. I have never heard of the physical condition being a part of that. ?
 
I do not know, not my house, maybe a 70's. Most likely it has a different 'name'.
kind of brick, not smooth, large pieces, multi-colored, tans. Is mortared or cemented.

My own house in 115 yrs old and has real 'stone' for sure, mortar not good and has several cracks ! ! ! ! We've had two earthquakes in southern Michigan this summer. I was concerned ! ! ! !
 
If things were so bad, why didn't the building inspector point it out. Good luck proving the seller knew.

I will make sure when I sell a property, the buyer signs off not holding me liable for anything, period.

AS IS WILL MEAN AS IS.

And I will always use a title company. They pay off when something ugly from the past raises it's ugly head.
 
"They pay off when something ugly from the past raises it's ugly head."

Regarding title.

Dean
 
> The question I have is why are the laws different in Michigan and just about every other state for that matter.

John, your question is a bit surprising to me, given that Louisiana's legal framework is quite distinct from the other 49 states.

Laws are different in each state because they can be. Hence Nevada has no state income tax, while nearby California has some of the highest income tax rates in the country. In some cases the states have agreed to standardize their laws, the Uniform Commercial Code being the best example.

I have no idea if disclosure laws of states like Michigan are an improvement over [i:654c4848f0]caveat emptor[/i:654c4848f0]. I do know the Michigan law has provided a lot of business to companies that sell home warranties to sellers of real estate.
 
First off, the worst thing you can do is start spilling your guts about any pending legal action over an open public forum, which anyone can access and use your written words against you. The guy complaining can get a lot of ideas for his story and see the limitations in your story, and what others think of your story. Best to see the local lawyer first, and keep your mouth shut. Tom
 
If there is anything I've learned from this post is from JT. I will have title company put in a clause that holds me harmless and not liable for anything not listed in disclosure. I will also include if your inspector didn't find it, that's your fault for not hiring a good inspector, not mine. AS IS AND HOW IS!!! And not someone's destination of IS.
 
(quoted from post at 11:18:42 09/07/15) If there is anything I've learned from this post is from JT. I will have title company put in a clause that holds me harmless and not liable for anything not listed in disclosure. I will also include if your inspector didn't find it, that's your fault for not hiring a good inspector, not mine. AS IS AND HOW IS!!! And not someone's destination of IS.

The problem is: your title company wont do that... unless your title company is your lawyer. In any case, you are cutting yourself short, any "as is" talk in MLS listings get hammered down in price. Any agent worth their salt will be (by law I believe) pointing out to buyers when a property is "as is". You are not thinking you can just throw an "as is" clause when you sell and it will sell for the same money, are you? Thats crazy talk...

Here, foreclosures are all AS IS, in big bold letters and prices reflect that. Hard to get loans on em too, how many people buy your houses with all cash?
 
Tom;

One of my favorite sayings is, "It's never too early to start keeping your mouth shut." Every time I remember to do that, it works.

Stan
 
You are asking the wrong questions to the wrong crowd. You need to get an attorney for the facts as they stand today.

Remember, it's not what's right or wrong, it's what you can prove in court and getting dragged into court REALLY stinks.
 
I would tell them to go pound sand. If it took them 3 years to find a crack how would a seller "obviously" know about it? If they want to take the seller to court tell them to hire a lawyer and when they get notice of suit then they hire theirs. Otherwise this isn't worth worrying about.
 

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