Steve@Advance

Well-known Member
Bought a 30 lb bottle of r22 today, $409 online with shipping!

While shopping I saw several substitutes at better prices. Not knowing much about them I went ahead and got the real stuff.

So what's up with the subs? Some say "drop in" replacement. Does that mean it can be used to top off a system with r22 already in it? Or does it need to be recovered and started over with the replacement?

Seems there were a couple different replacements. Any difference? Any preferable? I'm sure the r22 is going to be increasing in price and harder to get, so want to be ready to make the change.

Thanks!
 
R22 was taken out of production in 2010, so what you bought has been sitting around in a warehouse for a while. 410A replaced R22, but it can't be used as a substitute for R22. I think I read where R22A, which I've never used, replaced the methane molecule with a propane molecule. It's suppose to work as a replacement, but is less dense. They may have replaced a chlorine molecule too.

That said, the epa takes a dim view of people who are not in the HVAC business buying or selling R22 without the proper paper work. I know it's done. You may want to research the trouble one can get in with buying or selling the old R12 and R22.

So do you have a HVAC license?
R22A
 
Speaking of selling R12 - what's a couple "consumer" (16 oz?) cans worth? When I bought an old pickup the owner threw in 3 cans of R12 he had on the shelf saying I'd need them for the AC. The AC FAILED on the drive home and purged itself. When it was repaired it was switched over to R134 and I still have the cans.
 
You need to stop buying refrigerant off the internet. That may be an average price in another decade but it's waaayyy overboard now. I doubt it will ever get there due to the cheap replacements that are already here. R12 was a lesson learned - and you can still buy jugs of it after all these years.
 
I had soem old R12 cans at my garage sale and guys went nuts over it. They told me it sells at Carlisle and Hershey for alot.
 
Best advice I can give is that there is NO SUCH THING as a "drop-in" replacement for ANY refrigerant.

The first thing that you should know is that it is technically illegal to mix refrigerants. Really causes problems for recyclers.

Next, most replacement refrigerants are NOT approved by the EPA. As such, it is a violation of federal law to use an unapproved refrigerant. Not that anybody is enforcing it. It is also illegal to vent ANY refrigerant into the atmosphere. Again, if anybody is enforcing it.

Next, most so-called "drop-in" replacements contain potentially harmful or dangerous materials. They also may contain mixtures of materials that >>could<< be flammable, potentially explosive, toxic, or otherwise unsuitable for replacement refrigerants.

Also, the sellers of so-called "drop-in" replacements will claim them to be legal, safe, effective, and in most cases claim better performance than what they are replacing.

To answer a couple of more questions.......
1) YES, I do have a refrigeration license. My license covers up to 5 lb. systems.

2) The last time I needed R-12 for a job, it cost about $65 over the counter at a parts store. It also required me to show my license for the purchase.

3) While R-22 is slowly being phased out, so also is R-134a. I suspect that it is being phased out for the same reason as R-12 and R-22. DuPont's patents are running out.

4) R-22 and R-12 are STILL in wide use in "third world" countries. AND, they are still being produced - and in large quantities. I would suspect that there are a good number of countries where you can get all of the R-12 or R-22 that you want.
 
Thanks everyone! I did some more research this morning. Not seeing any safe replacement for r22. The r22a is flammable, appears to be nothing more than propane without the odorant! Not something you want to use in your home central air system!

No, you cannot add r22a to r22.

No, you cannot retrofit r410a in a r22 system.

Yes, r22 is still being made. It was banned from new application in 2010, but will be mfg until 2020.

So, I think I did the right thing by buying the r22. I don't have an HVAC license, but I do have a universal EPA certificate to legally purchase refrigerant. I have a recovery machine and use it! I buy refrigerant online to avoid sales tax. I use it for my own use, at work for our roof AC units (reimbursed at cost), at my church (no charge), for friends and coworkers (at cost).
 
You just hit the right button Allentown. DuPont has enough influence in the world to get GOVERNMENTS to shove the ozone hole jazz stuff down our throats about R12 and R22 etc. etc. A few years back I read somewhere about the values of stuff coming across the border. Cocaine, pot, people, and just down another or two was R12 & R22 etc. Don't know how accurate but sure is interesting??
 
I still have one of those little R12 cans left from years ago, think the Farm/Fleet tag said 99 cents.
 
Drop ins contain harmful and dangerous materials ? Lol
Yes the propane blends are flammable and will flash off but the quantity in ac is small.
Propane blends can be vented to air.
I'm pretty sure if you check R12, R22, R134 etc you'll find they are carcinogenic and when they burn give of mustard gas......how are they any less dangerous?
 
(quoted from post at 14:59:46 05/29/15) Drop ins contain harmful and dangerous materials ? Lol
Yes the propane blends are flammable and will flash off but the quantity in ac is small.
Propane blends can be vented to air.
I'm pretty sure if you check R12, R22, R134 etc you'll find they are carcinogenic and when they burn give of mustard gas......how are they any less dangerous?
hosgene gas, not mustard........cause of 85% of gas-related deaths in WWI
 
16 oz of propane which will vent off as aireous gas and dilute immediately vrs 26 gals of good ole liquid gasoline that will stay put and fry you.... Now what should should your really be worried about????? what about the propane lighter in your pocket... what if it burst? Or the gas shocks, or air bag that shoots shrapnel into your face and body. Or the deadly mercury in the cfls?

guess we all got to die of something.

So r22a is to be worried about when r22 will kill you dead? How much deader than dead can you get?
 
Well, as a general rule, refrigerants are not commonly burned in my experience.
However, you are correct in that most freons do generate phosgene gas when burned. So also does brake cleaner and dry cleaning fluid.
Also, propane by itself would work just like R-12 in a refrigeration system. The main reason that it is not used that way is because of the flammability. While in most cases it would vent harmlessly into the surrounding atmosphere, if it were to leak in an enclosed space, and if a spark of any kind were generated, the result would likely be explosive.

I am also aware that there are a host of other gases that are commonly used in commercial refrigeration. some of them are Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Sulfide, Ammonia, Carbon Dioxide, and Methane. Each has its own set of properties, and each has its own hazards. Some are toxic. Some are corrosive. Some are flammable. And ALL of them can be used to transfer heat by means of liquefying and evaporation.

Not sure where you get the carcinogenic from. Personally, I don't think any of them became carcinogenic until DuPont's patents ran out. All a matter of whose ox is gored, eh??
 
As to the lighter in the pocket I say this:
First, I do not carry a lighter because I do not smoke. Also, if I DID carry a lighter, it would be a Zippo. And, to add a bit more to the discussion, it seems that Jamie and Adam of MythBusters fame did a show on investigating whether those lighters would burst or explode. The results were disappointing. No boom. Sorry.

Also note that the mercury in CFLs is not relevant to this discussion. Nor are air bags which, by the way, were fought tooth and nail by the auto industry. They also do NOT shoot shrapnel into your face and body. I know this from FIRST HAND experience. Air shocks are filled with INERT NITROGEN gas. I know this because I installed and serviced one of the first high pressure compressors used for filling those shocks at the company that invented them - Gaspring Company of Colmar, PA.
 
My understanding about R12 freon is that you cannot sell the small cans of freon to someone who isn't licensed to purchase it. You can sell the drums(about the size of a propane tank) of it to people without a license, but they are fairly expensive.

The reason behind this is that people wanted to re-charge their A/C's in their vehicles, would buy the little can and the kit, but didn't know how to do it properly, and it had some serious environmental repercussions.

NY specific or not, I remember when the law passed. I worked in the automotive section of wal-mart. We ordered a bunch, and it would not even make it on the shelf. People were basically stock piling.

From what I understand, they also might be lifting that "ban" soon. Most vehicles are now using the R134, and there aren't than many left on the old freon. Now, there wouldn't be as many people out there "leaking" some of the freon out. The problem is that it was the masses out there leaking a little bit of freon. Given there wouldn't be near as many people doing this, it may be different.

But, short answer, yes, it is still illegal to sell the small canisters of R12 Freon to an unlicensed person.
 
R12 IS still being made and made to be dumped in the air!
first go to wal-mart look for a boat horn can of r12 with a red horn on top
then go to marine supply ask for GEN-TRON GAS for back-up horn blowing on all vessals (but not for ac use has the same connector on the bottle)
 
in response to " They also do NOT shoot shrapnel into your face and body. I know this from FIRST HAND experience" the defective ones can, as stated in this statement about the current air bag debacle


"This latest problem is the recall of more than 14 million cars with airbags made by the Japanese parts supplier company Takata, airbags with the potential to explode and injure or even kill vehicle occupants. " Bill
 
(quoted from post at 00:39:08 05/30/15) R12 IS still being made and made to be dumped in the air!
first go to wal-mart look for a boat horn can of r12 with a red horn on top
then go to marine supply ask for GEN-TRON GAS for back-up horn blowing on all vessals (but not for ac use has the same connector on the bottle)

Caned air that you blow dust off computers, well some of it is 134a. It is made to blow into our environment but no you can't let a little escape from your car AC. And we pay people to make rules???
 
I know they say you can't do this or that, but I had a truck that was originally R22, the system lost pressure and of course the R22. I put a vacuum pump on it, then recharged with 134a, It works fine to this day, no way of knowing for sure if all of the r22 was gone, but, it works. I personally do not believe in the "recovery" issue the government is trying to pound down on everyone, of course I do not believe in most of their "rules" to save the environment, more like forcing us to spend more money to fill the pockets of someone who paid them to make the rule to use their "new" product.
 
If you are driving on the interstate and the air bag goes off in your face, the shrapnel issue is irrelevant since you are already in DEEP trouble.
If you have never experienced an air bag deployment, let me fill you in.....
First, the thing goes BOOM. A canvas bag inflates rather violently in front of you. Your hands and arms are thrown to the side, up, or down depending how they are positioned on the steering wheel. Almost as quickly, the bag will deflate leaving a big flap of material in your line of vision. At the same time, the vehicle fills up with some sort of smoke and dust combination that will have you grabbing for the door handle to get out. I'm not sure if this smoke and dust is toxic, but it is certainly choking. Not fun at all!
 
I have never seen a mobile air conditioner use R-22. To the best of my knowledge, they only used R-12 for automotive units. Are you referring to a reefer unit for the cargo area??? They probably did use R-22 in the reefers.
 

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