OT: Shotgun shell fired without barrel

I know that this is a question which would be more appropriately asked on a firearms forum, but I don't participate in any of those, and anyway, people on this forum know plenty about firearms. So, a few years ago I watched a movie where a couple of lowlifes committed a robbery with the only firearm one of them had been able to get---a double barreled sawed off shotgun with the barrels sawed off so short that the front ends of the shells protruded beyond the front of the barrels. I know that with firearms that shoot bullets, greater barrel length will normally produce higher bullet velocities, but I actually know very little about shotgun ballistics. Would the velocity of the pellets fired from such a shotgun be substantially less than if they had been fired from a shotgun with normal length barrel?

While I'm asking, how about a rifle bullet fired from a rifle from which the barrel had been removed, so that the bullet was fully supported by the chamber, but there was no barrel in front of it. Besides poor accuracy, how would such a bullet perform?

Stan

Just don't test it,the cartridge would likly explode but at minium the blast would be near enough to shooter that injuries would almost certainly occur. In both cases volicity would be drasticly reduced,pellets would go in all directions and projectil would tumble and zig zag. Rifle projectils must be spun by rifling in barrel to fly straight.

There have been numerous guns over the years to have basically the configuration you're discussing, Stan. Probably the best-known is the "Apache" type of pistol, made in various configurations a century or more ago and used as a close-range gun popular with street gangs and such. Ian at Forgotten Weapons does a nice review of a representative sample at the link posted below. These were, of course, revolvers, and small ones at that, so the power of the cartridges used was low to begin with, and the absence of a barrel certainly didn't help either velocity or accuracy, but they were never intended as long-range affairs anyway. Many of the "zip" guns made by and for criminals are similar--often just a piece of water pipe with a primitive firing mechanism, with as little "barrel" as possible to aid in concealment. At the opposite end of the quality scale, the very well-made Bond Arms derringers shoot .410 shotgun loads and have as little as 1/2" or so barrel remaining after the cartridge is inserted, yet they're capable of reasonable accuracy and impressive terminal ballistics at what are considered "combat" ranges--10 yards or so. Shotguns in general have a muzzle velocity of around 1200 fps, as opposed to rifles, which will commonly reach twice that, with 3 or more times that not uncommon. There have been a number of studies done to determine the effects of barrel length on accuracy and velocity, and while both typically decrease as the barrel length decreases, the ease of portability and concealment of a short-barreled revolver has ensured their continued popularity. With a rifle, there's less of an upside to decreasing the barrel length, as assuming the stock is still left in its original configuration, the gun is still difficult to conceal and there is a marked increase in muzzle blast and flash. Given that a rifle is usually intended to be used at longer ranges than a pistol, there's typically not enough of an advantage to warrant doing it unless concealability overrides all other concerns, in which case a pistol is typically chosen if available, barring their use by criminals with nothing else available, such as your intrepid pair.
Forgotten Weapons Apache review

Not only what Brian said but the propellant requires a minimum barrel length to completely burn and send the projectile. Most likely not want to be standing in front of the weapons but no way would it be the same as being shot by a gun with even a minimum length barrel to enclose the cartridge as it burned the powder. Heck of a flash and a bang but without a barrel the case, wadding and shot would just fly apart. Bullet would shoot but not far or fast.And lord knows where...

I do know that if a rifle cartridge is ignited by burning, the round explodes with a bang splitting the case and separating the bullet but not like it had been shot. Ol' Sir Issac and his law of equal and opposite reactions in effect here. Don't ask...
That said a minimal amount of barrel will allow the cartridge to retain the explosion and expel the round quite accurately and with deadly force. My NA 22 mini pistol is surprisingly accurate and hard hitting at short range with only a 1 1/2" Barrel. But it does have a chamber and barrel.

I have a Cobray double barrel derringer 45-410.It will shoot 410 3" shot gun shells. With a 3" shell in it you half a inch of barrel in front of shell. I have shot it with 3" triple o buck and if you were standing 10-15 FT. in front of it it would be a lethal shot. It has birdseye grips and are not pleasent to shoot but will do the job.

At close range say 15 feet or less any thing in front of it with shot bigger then #8 would be dead meat.

When I was a kid in rural school, older kid threw 2 shotgun shells into the furnace and closed the door. When the shells exploded, most the of ductwork fell down and the cement on the sections of the cast iron furnace broke apart. All the dads came and took the furnace apart and re-cemented the cast sections back together and put the ductwork back up, so we only got out of school one day. BTW, the ductwork was all wrapped in that asbestos wrap that was used back in the day.

Keeping it farm and tractor related go to you tube and check out starting a field Marshall tractor.

(quoted from post at 19:03:16 05/01/15) I know that this is a question which would be more appropriately asked on a firearms forum, but I don't participate in any of those, and anyway, people on this forum know plenty about firearms. So, a few years ago I watched a movie where a couple of lowlifes committed a robbery with the only firearm one of them had been able to get---a double barreled sawed off shotgun with the barrels sawed off so short that the front ends of the shells protruded beyond the front of the barrels. I know that with firearms that shoot bullets, greater barrel length will normally produce higher bullet velocities, but I actually know very little about shotgun ballistics. Would the velocity of the pellets fired from such a shotgun be substantially less than if they had been fired from a shotgun with normal length barrel?

While I'm asking, how about a rifle bullet fired from a rifle from which the barrel had been removed, so that the bullet was fully supported by the chamber, but there was no barrel in front of it. Besides poor accuracy, how would such a bullet perform?

Stan

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As long as there is enough chamber to support the majority of the case then the pressure will be directed forward and it will sort of work. You have to envision the process. The expanding gases are pushing the shot column forward and the crimp is opening long before the the gases reach the unsupported section of the case. Once the gases hit the unsupported area, yes, the case will split and gas will escape, but it's not like the shot is going to be there to be directed back at the shooter.

I grew up in a gun shop, the son of a gunsmith...among other things. Th e amount of pure-dee hokum surrounding guns and ballistics is staggering.

Why would case split ? The shell is totally inside of what ever barrel you have it in.The only way ihave seen one split is if barrel is wore out.I have shot a number of 3" 410 shells through my Cobray and never split a casing.At 10 to 15 feet with 3" with 000 buck it is deadly.

"The amount of pure-dee hokum surrounding guns and ballistics is staggering."

The reason you say that is because you know guns well. The truth is that the amount of pure-dee hokum surrounding just about anything worth knowing is equally staggering. The ratio of what people actually know compared to what they think they know would amaze and frighten most of us.

Stan

Hi Tim;

Actually that link is to the YouTube video of the Cobray Ladies Home Companion, which is quite interesting in and of itself. Thanks for bringing Forgottenweapons.com to my attention. It's great, and, unfortunately, kind of addictive. As if I needed another reason to sit in front of my computer screen while the world outside rolls on.

Stan

I think I saw the same movie- dumb crooks robbing a organized crime poker game. Dumb crooks later killed along with few others. For the shotgun used with exposed ends of shells- dangerous to someone close to front and also shooter. Slug or heavy pellets would get a short start and then gas blast would go sideways as well as push bullet/pellets- but at greatly reduced pressure. 'Un barreled' rifle bullet in a discharge would be similar- pressure from case retention for 1/4 to 1/2 inch would be about only 'push' on bullet and then comes side blast relief point and lots of flash and noise- but not much more forward push, front of case likely to be fragmented and dangerous to sides. Fire dept training films have a couple of sections on danger of unsupported ammo exploding- the dangerous part is the empty case going backwards. It isn't a good situation- but not one requiring 3 blocks cleared for a few open rounds going off like sometimes happens when a campfire, alcohol and the last couple rounds found in case at end of hunting day combine into a silly incident- yes there was a severe injury when the guy fell down laughing into the fire, but the guy hit in forearm with something from the explosion got a burn and bruise but no broken skin. Other training film incident for police bomb squad- a section of 3/4 pipe about 2 inchs long to hold 12 bore shell and a screw cap with hole in center to fit a nail firing pin or in couple case electric wire on primer set up in door frames as a booby trap to entrance of drug house. Officer going through door after 'knocking' with ram has leather jacket sleeve torn, but skin not broken, chest vest has complete protection. 10 foot some danger, beyond that it is a BB gun power problem for eyes or throat, wear the face shield or a motorcycle shield and safe enough. The 4 inch pipe section booby traps are a danger- gas blast is confined sideways for a inch or so and that means pressure is 'pushing' pellets or bullet enough to get to maybe 500fps at 5 foot in front- and that can be skin penetration or in case of a water fowl plastic sleeve a 1.5 ounce 'glazer slug' hit directly in front of booby trap and unarmored body parts get massive but shallow wound- Chicago(?) incident mid 2000 with rival gang, unarmored door buster getting gut shot and spending most of night at Henroitan hospital getting shot picked out of groin, belly area along with sections of large and small intestine. Lesson learned-don't try robbing other dope gang that has a friendly business relationship with 1% MC group and mechanically inclined members with tools, imagination and experience since teen days with making zip guns of .410 bore from hardware store supplies (hint: use a steam pressure seamless 1/2 inch pipe instead of seamed plumbing pipe to reduce hand injuries on second or 3rd shot). No barrel shotgun shell is a weak hand grenade dangerous at very close range- but not accurate at all and beyond 10 yard no real problem to intended victim- 10 feet range is possible problem, 2 foot is hurting time. RN

Hmmm--goes directly to the Apache video at this end. No biggie--I assume you can find the Apache video easily enough should you be so inclined. Yes, his site (and he has a website as well as the Youtube channel) is interesting--he's a recognized expert in the field of the odd, strange, and curious, and the thing I find most interesting about his videos is the number of evolutionary "dead ends" there are in firearms. So many mechanisms and ideas just didn't survive, often for non-obvious reasons (such as the winning designer having a better relationship with the buyer rather than a better product) or because they were ahead of their time and the buyers weren't willing to make the leap. I suppose it's like that in many if not most other fields of endeavor, but the field of firearms is particularly interesting, at least to me. The Ladies Home Companion IS fascinating. The tongue-in-cheek humor of naming a .45-70 repeater a "ladies home companion" as a response to the Street Sweeper's name being thought of as too violent is particularly hilarious! As Ian notes, the gun itself, like the Street Sweeper before it, was pretty much a flop--it was cheaply made, unreliable, and very slow to reload, without being appreciably faster to fire than a semi-auto or even a pump shotgun, but it's another one of those dead ends that are so interesting to see.

Tim;

After reading your response, I clicked on the link again, and it did indeed go to the Apache video. The first time I went to it, I'll bet I clicked on a patch of blank screen space to make my computer's volume control display disappear, but YouTube screen space is almost all active. What I took to be blank screen must have been close enough to the Ladies Home Companion title to load that video instead of the Apache one. I watched both.

One that I really enjoyed was the one about the Chinese mystery pistol. I particularly liked the part about how the ramp style adjustable rear sights were actually solid metal milled into the top of the slide---totally non-functional---and the range markings on the sights were gibberish. Then, to add insult to injury, the top of the fake ramp sight was higher than the sight line of the actual sights, so they were useless, too. And the screw in the front of the frame under the barrel which did absolutely nothing---just a threated hole with an impressive knob-like screw added.

Your point about evolutionary dead ends is interesting. I'm also fascinated (and often appalled) by how all kinds of considerations which have nothing to do with the quality or usefulness of a weapon will influence its popularity or acceptance. I imagine that every product ever made has faced the same process, in general, but like you, I'm particularly interested in how it applies to firearms and, to a lesser extent, whole weapons systems.

Stan

(quoted from post at 12:26:31 05/02/15) "The amount of pure-dee hokum surrounding guns and ballistics is staggering."

The reason you say that is because you know guns well. The truth is that the amount of pure-dee hokum surrounding just about anything worth knowing is equally staggering. The ratio of what people actually know compared to what they think they know would amaze and frighten most of us.

Stan

Click to expand...

HAR! :lol: Ain't that the truth!

(quoted from post at 11:18:36 05/02/15) Why would case split ? The shell is totally inside of what ever barrel you have it in.The only way ihave seen one split is if barrel is wore out.I have shot a number of 3" 410 shells through my Cobray and never split a casing.At 10 to 15 feet with 3" with 000 buck it is deadly.

Click to expand...

The OP was talking about a barrel cut so short part of the shell was exposed. If, say, 1/2" of the shell is exposed and unsupported it's likely to split from the pressure of the gasses. Not a sure thing at 1/4 or 1/2" but more likely as the unsupported length increases.

Heard a story about my dad doing something similar in a one room school. He put a bunch of .22 shorts in a big wad of chewing gum and started chomping away on it.

The teacher (predictably) told him to throw his gum in the stove. So he did.

Thanks, RN;

Interesting explanation. The movie was Killing Them Softly. Very well acted and well done, but too violent and grim for my tastes.

As I understand it, the barrel length of a firearm is the main determinant of whether all the propellant will be burned before the projectile leaves the barrel. Handgun cartridge velocity charts will often show the muzzle velocity that a bullet from the same cartridge will achieve if fired from different length barrels (i.e. 2", 4", and 6"), and I know from personal experience that the same cartridge fired from the 2" barrel of a .357 magnum sounds about twice as loud as when it's fired from a .357 with a 4" barrel, because with the shorter barrel, some of the propellant is still burning beyond the end of the barrel. I've also read that the amount of stabilization that a bullet achieves from a rifled barrel is not significantly increased by barrel length, and that the reason a handgun with a 6" barrel seems more accurate than one with a 2" barrel is due to the longer sight radius, not a mechanical property of the barrel. So, I wonder how a shotgun shell which was reloaded with the fastest burning handgun powder, say Bullseye, or HP 38, in an amount which was calculated to duplicate the pressure of the original charge, would perform from a barrel which was only long enough to completely support the case. Accuracy, of course, would still be whatever accuracy is when the shot or slug doesn't have a barrel to get everything started in the same direction, but wouldn't the velocity come closer to what it would be from an actual barrel if most or all of the propellant burned completely before the shot had exited the case?

Stan

There is a limit to to how much pressure a case/shell/action can take. Say you had a load that used a 2 3/4" 12 ga shell that when fired in a common 28" barrel would launch a 1 1/4 oz load at 1300fps. You may be able to cram enough of a fast burning powder in the shell to duplicate the velocity with the barrel cut off 2 3/4" ahead of the breech, but the pressure curve and peak pressure are going to be way different and might just exceed the limits that the shell and action of the gun can handle. Thats why you don't see loads for your 357 pushing a 180 gr bullet at 1400fps with Bullseye and why some loads are recommended for the light alloy frame guns. (It's also why you don't use smokeless loads in a Damascus barreled shotgun.) You use a much slower burning powder with a long pressure curve and will find a longer barrel gives higher velocity. Sort of like cam timing to make it tractor related.