Tesla Battery

John T

Well-known Member
I ran across this today on MSN discussing Tesla Batteries and found it interesting

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/new-tesla-battery-could-end-electricity-bills/ar-BBiU7fs?ocid=U146DHP

These type of discussions have been around before, but as an engineer they always attract my attention.

I'm ONLY the messenger, NOT wanting to start any argument over battery types and designs etc. just food for thought.

That being said, I'm getting to that stage in life when its time to sell the farm and big old house where we raised our family and downsize to a much more energy efficient (Solar, Geothermal etc.) smaller home with an RV Port. I know for sure I will install around a 5000 Watt or so fixed southerly Solar array and most likely start out Grid Tie. Then if battery technology evolves I may go off grid. For sure if I were young and just starting out in my first home, it would be Solar and Geothermal and Wind Power and anything else out there.

I attended a Busnuts rally in Arcadia Florida a few years ago where Technomads put on a seminar and explained their 500 Amp Hour Lithium Ion Battery (in their GMC 4104 Bus Conversion) storage bank and I think they were expanding it to 1000 Amp Hours. However I recall how the charging volts and amps and temperature was all so critical YIKES. But I'm sure things have improved since then. In the meantime I'm happy with my RV's flooded lead acid 460 Amp Hours (4 Golf Cart Batteries) which requires far less sensitive and far less expensive 4 stage Smart Solar or 120 VAC powered conventional charging.

John T
Tesla Battery
 
The real problem with renewable energy is it does nothing to address peak power demands. In fact, it exacerbates peak demands by supplying power to the grid when the energy isn't needed. So there really needs to be a storage solution so the power production can be shifted to peak times. And right now, there's little motivation for the utilities to add pumped storage capacity; they'd rather not have to deal with renewable energy at all. Local battery storage is one solution, but I suspect it's much more expensive in the long term than pumped storage.
 
I have not yet read about the so-called Tesla battery innovation but will do so when time permits.

What caught my eye was your reference to the GMC 4104 conversion.

My Father was the GMC Truck and Coach field engineer in our area for 25 years after WWII before retiring in 1969. (I've never known anyone who knew Detroits as he did.) Among other duties, he was responsible for technical assistance for any and all coach operators, 1 unit or hundreds.

He traveled a three state area visiting transit and parlor (over the road) coach operators and I was sometimes able to go with him in the summer when not in school. I well remember the 4104, and derivitives as well as the transit models as I spent hours with him in fleet garages (mostly city transit garages) with the maintenance managers. In the late 1960s and 1970s I remember him speaking of folks converting "parlor jobs" to motor homes, well before the Winebago craze hit.

After graduating undergratuate school and starting my first job, I became acquainted with another engineer at my company who had a 4104 (4106?) conversion. I told him about my Father and his ears perked up. To make a long story short, I rumaged through my Father's work related materials and found a maintenance manual for the 4104 (6?) coach as well as a manual for the Detroit 6-71 engine and gave these to him. I gained a friend for life.

Dean
 
Old friend John, When you downsize I want first dids on your John Deere. Also can you explain to me how High voltage DC is better transferred than AC. Did not Edison go down with DC needing a power station every few miles. So how can high voltage DC not suffer the same loss?
 
AC is easier to convert from one voltage to another than is DC. The hardware required to convert DC from low voltage to high voltage at megawatt power levels is absurdly expensive, so it's not cost-effective to transmit high-voltage DC over short distances. On the other hand, high voltage DC power transmission has less losses than AC over the same distance, so high voltage DC power transmission becomes cost-effective when the distance is much over 200 miles.
 
John, there's a lot to be said for having a house that takes care of you and asks for nothing in return. We moved into ours 20 years ago. No exterior maintenance, no re-roof, no thermostat. We left for a month last winter, came back and the house had cooled down 2º. Summers work the same. Leaves us free to pursue more interesting things.

Grid tie is greatly dependent on your PoCo attitude. Many, mine included, are hostile. I'm halfway to electric grid independence, based on micro-hydro which needs no batteries. We live in a mature forest, solar panels would be ineffective.

Our travels usually entail visiting friends, mostly outside the US. Or borrowing second homes that we're happy to not own. Being a good house guest is the only requirement.

Good luck with your plans. Consider low/zero maintenance at the top of your list. Then you're free to come and go, on your schedule, when the house asks nothing of you. "Passive" is a key word, unless you're enamored with complicated systems. If that's your toy box, have fun.
 
Dean, I have several friends with 4104 Conversions and have seen a ton of them at Bus Rallys. The older have the 671 while later ones have the 8V71 or whats known as the 318. They are all leaky lol

My personal favorite conversion is a Flxible and you see a lot of Eagles and MCI out there plus a few Schoolies. Im just a wannabee as my 29 Ft Class C with Solar panels suits us just perfect. However those busses will still be running when all those cheap stick built RV's are in graveyards.

John T
 
Edison sort of lost out in DC transmission in his day, Westinghouse and Tesla had different ideas. If I recall there are some HV DC runs out there I believe. Straight pure DC is not transformable like AC is and conversions take energy and have heat losses. If you drive down through Amish country nowadays you see many fixed Solar Arrays. My new home will definitely have it plus Geothermal or Winds or anything else ONLY WAY TO GO NOW. Its not for everybody, but as an engineer I know its how my RV is set up and how my next home will be, if others don't like it fine by me lol...

John T
 
Makes a guy wish he were young and just starting out versus old and retired like me lol

Yep energy efficient and passive and solar and geothermal and low maintenance is the ONLY way to go in my opinion as an engineer. For people that don't like it too bad lol

John T
 
JohnT,
In 1991 I started building a new house around a 26x50 2 bedroom ranch with basement only one bath. Finished in 1996. I doubled the size of house and added on a 2 car 24x24 attached house, master bedroom, another bath, Florida room, made living room larger and put on over 24,000 brick. I made the house super insulated, anderson casement windows, insulated fiber glass doors. I even installed insulated garage doors and super insulated it too. No heat pumps, 10 seer rudd central. I put electric baseboard heat in every room, even heat garage to 50 in winter. My fixed electric bill is only $135/mo. Everything is total electric.

Spend your money on insulation and brick the house. I did 99% of all the work too back when I was young. 3 years ago at another location, other place in country, we put a 26x26 addition on for $31 a square ft. Made it super insulated too. No heat pumps, just baseboard. Cheap to heat too. Forget all the solar, hi tech crap, geo's. Good chance we won't live long enought to recoup anything.

BYW, how much will you spend? And how much could you cut off my $135/mo electric bill. Do the math, use the tried and proven, good window, doors, and INSULATION.

George
 
I LOVE AND BELIEVE IN INSULATION (I remembered some from Thermodynamics lol) and I ALSO love Solar and wind energy and geo thermal etc I LIKE ALL OF THAT I CAN GET. However if people don't like insulation or dont like solar or geo thermal or other energy saving that's their own business, just because solar and wind energy and insulation and geo thermal can save on energy bills don't mean all like it I guess?????????? (I as an engineer sure like them all) I'm not here to argue batteries or solar or insulation, I only posted an informative article on Tesla batteries, I was ONLY the messenger. My own personal choice is to use solar and insulation and geo thermal and any other energy saving methods, but if people choose otherwise that's fine with me. To each their own I say.

Best wishes, KEEP WARM regardless of the methods used

John T
 
(quoted from post at 19:10:17 04/30/15) I LOVE AND BELIEVE IN INSULATION (I remembered some from Thermodynamics lol) and I ALSO love Solar and wind energy and geo thermal etc I LIKE ALL OF THAT I CAN GET. However if people don't like insulation or dont like solar or geo thermal or other energy saving that's their own business, just because solar and wind energy and insulation and geo thermal can save on energy bills don't mean all like it I guess?????????? (I as an engineer sure like them all) I'm not here to argue batteries or solar or insulation, I only posted an informative article on Tesla batteries, I was ONLY the messenger. My own personal choice is to use solar and insulation and geo thermal and any other energy saving methods, but if people choose otherwise that's fine with me. To each their own I say.

Best wishes, KEEP WARM regardless of the methods used

John T

I have to question wind energy for the following reason. I have been all over the country where electricity was made, hydro, coal, oil, lignite, and nuclear. All of those have big transmission lines going out in all directions to carry the electricity produced. I've been all over West Texas where there are thousands of windmills and have saw no transmission lines. It makes me wonder if all those windmills and all that space doesn't produce enough electricity to need big transmission lines to carry it. Hummm, maybe it's wireless.
 
JohnT,
Look at investment vs return. Insulation is one time, no maintenance, no repairs. Look at the rest, cost and repairs. How much would I have to invest just to save a little? Not worth it.
George
 
Yes, I mention wind as one of many alternative sources, but its my understanding they need government subsidy to make it profitable?? I will start with lots of insulation and passive solar heat and solar panels before Id invest in a wind farm I believe.

Fun chat fun topic, people are free to use what they please

John T
 
(quoted from post at 06:50:51 05/01/15) Yes, I mention wind as one of many alternative sources, but its my understanding they need government subsidy to make it profitable?? I will start with lots of insulation and passive solar heat and solar panels before Id invest in a wind farm I believe.

Fun chat fun topic, people are free to use what they please

John T

I wish to correct you, people aren't free to use what they please. The expensive electricity the wind farms produce goes in the grid and I use it, like it or not it is a fact.
 
Sorry, but I'm going to stick with people are free to use wind or solar or geothermal and insulation or whatever they may choose to purchase and install on their own property subject to laws which may or may not allow it WELL DUH. Im NOT judging if they can afford it or if its cost effective ONLY its their choice. Just a matter of semantics lol Lots of people out there make bad or not economic sound decisions, but that's their choice. If they buy and install wind or solar or geothermal or insulation or whatever is their choice. As the saying goes the only definite things are death and taxes lol

If people like solar or wind or geo thermal or insulation that's great, I make my choices and others are allowed to make their choices. Im only the messenger and posted a link to an interesting article Im not arguing or defending anything whatsoever, I say let people do as they like its their choice to use or not use any form of alternative energy on their property subject to laws

Thank you and have a nice day, use what you like and don't use what you don't is my advice, I will do the same.

Heres the article for those who are interested, but they are free to read it or not and do as they like


http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/new-tesla-battery-could-end-electricity-bills/ar-BBiU7fs?ocid=U146DHP

John T
Tesla Battery
 
Im not arguing or defending anything or saying whats cost effective and whats not. Let people decide to use insulation or solar or geo thermal or wind energy or whatever they can on their own property is fine by me. All I did was post an article, use whatever you please is my advice and let others do likewise. If everything every person ever purchased was cost effective or had to be to justify the purchase, what a shape the country would be in lol You just cant cure stupid as far as peoples buying decisions, some may be wise others not so wise, but Im not here to stop them lol

Take care George, maybe we will met up at Elnora this year, I hope so

John T Fellow Hoosier neighbor
 
Hi all,

Long-time member, hang out mostly in the red tractor forums, but I recently did a lot of research and got some bids to go grid-tie for my farm. The cost, with subsidies, is still around $3.50/watt, pretty steep and about a 7-10 year payback for me. One of the biggest hurdles is the PoCo. They will require me to upgun my transformer to 25KW at a cost of $10k or so before they will approve a 17KW installation. Of course, they won't increase the size on their dime to sell power to me, I just have to live with the lights dimming every time the well pump kicks on...

Anyway, the Tesla battery could be a game changer. 10KW capacity for $3,500. Still lots of unanswered questions, like current capacity, number of cycles, useful life etc, but I would much rather install two if necessary before I comply with the PoCo requirements and get off the grid entirely. I won't be an early adopter of this technology, but it'll be fun to watch.

I think making your own power from the sun is just a way cool idea, but it has to pencil out.
 
Earth sheltered is yet one more tool in addition to Solar and Wind and Geo Thermal and Insulation etc etc. I like to keep a lot of options open. Some may or may not like any energy saving options, but I find them interesting and may or may not choose some or all in my retirement home......to each their own.

John T
 
As previously stated. There are no economical and reliable methods to "store" electricity . Pumped water power dams have thier place but the number of them and the size is limited . Where is geologically stable rock in a place where the same environmentalists won't scream about flooding in 10's of thousands of acres of critter habitate.
Also as previously stated . Using less power saves more than exotic power generation and storage. An airtight house that is super insulated is the answer .
Battery storage will not improve unless the Almighty adds some new elements to the periodic table . So we are stuck with flooded cell lead acid for stationary applications. And one of the lithium based "gell cells" systems for mobile applications where weight is an issue .
The lowly lead acid battery invented by the French in 1859 iirc is still used by Navies around the world on surface and submerged ships for a reason. Cheap, abuse tolerant and don't burst into flame in situations that turn any lithium cells into a firecracker .
My utility promotes net metering but rarely gives approval. Solar cells are now cheap enough that for some applications . They will pay is used to shave peak power consumption to near zero between 9:00AM and 3:00PM.
Your appliances matter. My property with an electric fridge, electric freezer, electric stove, electric water heater, and electric well pump, electric clothes dryer and electric furnace . Compared to similar applications with natural gas everything . My $850 monthly winter power bill exceeds a NG bill. Primary winter heat is a high effiency wood appliance . However the electric beat runs early mornings before the fire is stoked.
 
If I had solar I would be looking into a dirt battery. Imagine, your back yard garden or compost heap or both is your battery.
 

$3500 after tax payer funded subsidies for a 10Kw hr battery pack. What is anybody going to do with 7KW hr of usable battery power? With a battery pack that will last 3-7 years, then you get to pay for another battery.
 
Bingo!

Norman and Tulsa coming up. Second one for Indiana soon. Georgia almost ready for occupancy. My experience, also good for where the ground shakes. Anybody interested near SC/Georgia, I know where there's a pile of steel (bar joists and decking) available for one that probably will not be built. 46' span, I think, enough for a 3000 sq ft house with 300 psf total load. Surprisingly cheap.
 
Make that battery large enough... and you can effect annual heat storage. That's what keeps us toasty winters, cool summers. You really do not need much of any solar. Even works in Alaska.
 
dam used in peak then water building back to high level works in Thompson Falls Mt, Why would not tide used with off shore
turbines be feasible?
 
Low mass houses with wood heat need something like this:

<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto20133.jpg"/>
 
Neighbor, I have read about tides and trapping water at high tide then release it at low to spin turbines. I don't recall the economics, but if it were a good thing maybe more locations will try it?????

Fun chat

John T
 

nobody is selling tidal power at market price for two reasons. #1 They can't because they would go broke as costs exceed income . #2 tidal power is not reliable and steady 24/7. What is the source of power between tidal swells?
Anybody that answers with batteries are unfamiliar with the cost and complexity of a battery bank that size.
 
Tidal turbines in use since late 1980s in a couple places- France on the channel coast has a very high/low tide range and was one of earlier installations, works fairly good- Bay of Fundi?. Skaggerak(sic) between Baltic and Atlantic between Sweden and Denmark, Netherlands is another with good tide flow and was next. Mediteranian area has very few good tidal flow areas, a couple small intermittent use projects, same situation around England with some good tides but other problems. US coast has had partial surveys done on some possible sites, last I read was a few small test projects looking for funding but that was a few years back. RN.
 
"unless the Almighty adds some new elements to the periodic table" Ghee when you state it like that it sounds as if everything with battery reseach has been done, maybe so.
 
JohnT,
When is Elnora?
FYI, I asked both my financial advisers/brokers, if they would invest in geo's, solar and wind? They just laughed, NO.

Now designing a house to use passive solar and thermal mass is another story. I like positioning windows towards the south, then have a 2 ft overhang, eve, to shade windows in summer. Power vents in attic are good. 18+ inches of insulation in attic, over R20 in walls. These are cheap to do, good return on investment, never needs a repairman man.

I was taught to KISS, keep it simple stupid.
George
 
George, its the Thursday Friday and Saturday and Sunday AFTER Labor Day.

I would laugh at anyone who builds a new home and DID NOT invest in becoming as energy efficient and independent as possible including such things as passive solar heating, solar electric, earth sheltering, loads of insulation, geo thermal, etc etc. The old way of building energy hog homes IS OVER, the modern uses of insulation and solar heat and solar electric and earth sheltering is the ONLY WAY TO GO given rising energy costs, but people are free to invest in whatever home they please even if its less energy efficient, its their money not mine lol.

Hope to see you in Elnora

John T
 

Intermittent operation. Winter ice is a problem. The same environmentalists that want green power will also picket the tidal turbine because it chews up fish, seals and whales.
 

Every element has been paired with every other element with every type of electrolyte. To find the highest capacity, lowest weight, lowest cost rechargeable battery.
Stuck with lead acid and lithium.
 
I'll watch the weather and look for a good day. Last year the day I went was cooler, but rainy.
 

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top