Ground Wire Revisited

John T

Well-known Member
Sorry, I just thought this was too important and posed such a hazard and safety risk, especially at this time of year when kids or grandkids may be visiting, I JUST HAD TO SAY SOMETHING.

Some lay or untrained gents or electrically challenged Billy Bob and Bubba types (Hopefully not trained professional electricians or engineers) may take an old two wire convenience outlet receptacle circuit (Hot and Neutral) and install a new 3 wire receptacle which has the safety Equipment Ground, Hot and Neutral...............

AND IN SO DOING THEY JUMP THE NEUTRAL TO THE GROUND ON THE RECEPTACLE (bootleg ground)

ITS MY TRAINED PROFESSIONAL (albeit old n rusty maybe wrong) OPINION THATS HAZARDOUS AND VIOLATES THE NEC

Why you ask?? Okay there are numerous reasons and explanations, but its impossible to list all here or what it takes books to explain in a few sentences and what a non electrical trained person may or my not understand, I just try my best.

HOWEVER consider this for a starter why you should NOT bootleg a ground.

If your little barefooted granddaughter were there would you open a receptacle and strip off the white insulation on the Neutral wire and tell her to touch it (its a live current carrying current conductor, its insulated for a reason you know) ????????????????????? PROBABLY NOT RIGHT????

Okay, the outer conductive metal case/shell on many household or shop tools and kitchen appliances or blenders or refrigerators etc. HAS THE SAFETY EQUIPMENMT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR BONDED TO THAT outer metal CASE/FRAME.

If you bond the Neutral to the Safety equipment Ground (like on the bootleg grounded 3 wire receptacle on a 2 wire circuit) YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING TO YOUR LITTLE BAREFOOT GRANDDAUGHTER I ASKED ABOUT ABOVE. If she touches that kitchen tool or appliance its the same as if you stuck her finger on the white wire you stripped the insulation off and that's a live current carrying conductor.

If you place your body (especially from hand down to feet) in parallel with another live current carrying path, its possible for some current to flow through your ticker and as little as 30 milliamps can cause your heart to fibrillate and you wake up dead !!!!!!

SOOOOOOOOOOO if you wouldn't strip the insulation off the live current carrying white Neutral wire and tell you little barefooted granddaughter to touch it YOU MAY WANT TO THINK TWICE ABOUT WIRING A 3 WIRE RECEPTACLE TO AN OLD 2 WIRE CIRCUIT AND LETTING YOUR LITTLE BAREFOOT GRANDDAUGHTER TOUCH THAT TOOL OR KITCHEN APPLIANCE OT BLENDER OR TOASTER OR FRIDGE ETC.

NOTICE wire as yall please, its not my or my grandkids lives that are at risk, Im long retired and may be wrong as rain, Ive been wrong before. HOWEVER see what other more current in the trade professional electricians or engineers have to say maybe!!!! See if they don't agree the Neutral is a live current carrying insulated conductor intended for normal return current while the safety equipment grounding conductor (bare wire attached to appliances case) IS ONLY FOR FAULT CURRENT RETURN. See if they would strip the insulation off and let their kids touch the live wire????

Im NOT going to do that but yall feel free to do so or wire as you please.

YES Billy Bob, Im well aware in the old days some appliances like stoves or washers or dryers etc used the safety equipment ground for return 120 VAC current, but Im also aware many NEC changes or updates came about in order to save a life or prevent a fire. So again, Im not here to fight or tell you how to do things, Im here to help, take or leave it at your own risk or peril...If you think its safe to bootleg a ground or let the case/frame of an appliance you touch be bonded to the Neutral that's fine, do as you please if you thinks its safe and proper, I just happen to RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.

Nuff said, I try my best

John T
 
I had an ungrounded home. I added new circuit breaker box, and was able to run a separate ground conductor back to the new box. I did use an insulated green/yellow wire.

Master electrician told me it was OK, and it passed inspection.
 
I sort of doubt, but I may be wrong, that master electrician would have used a two wire circuit on a 3 wire receptacle and jumped Ground to Neutral at the receptacle, that's what I'm saying in my opinion can pose a hazard and the limited specific reason for my concern and post. However, if a ground wire were correctly and safely added so there were three wires available to correctly wire a 3 wire receptacle, now that's a different topic.

Thanks for your post, good information

John T
 
John T;
All that bootlegging and I didn't see a thing about mountain springwater or any other spirits. Strange!

I know there's still a lot of two wire places out there but they are scary to me. Even worse is the old porcelain peg with the bare wire wrapped around it to keep from burning the house down two wire. Brother in laws is like that. I reckon I'm getting old cause I woulden't have the nerves to sleep there.

When it comes to tricity there's lots of ways to take a shortcut. Grown men are supposed to have enough sense to NOT take them. Instead of saying it works for Billy Bob so I'll take the shortcut he should be telling Billy Bob he'll help him correct his after he's through with what he's working on.

Tricity can keep you breathing or stop it in a heartbeat so show a little respect and we'll all feel better.
 
EXCELLENT, the addition of 3 wire receptacles (provided properly and safely wired) could save a life, you done good, congratulations........

John T
 
John...always enjoy reading your comments on wiring.
Think it's time for you to publish "Bubba's guide to farm and home wiring"
 
Thanks for the kind words.


"Think it's time for you to publish
Bubba's guide to farm and home wiring"

Hey, having farmed and owned several farms over the years, believe me I've seen my share of his wiring and I sure can NOT say mines always been the best lol but I do like to advise keeping things safe, its one topic I know at least something about (even though rusty now). I have no problem with disagreement, all are entitled to wire or do as they please far as I'm concerned.

However, its sorta like the mother who warned her son to wear heavy boots when mowing the grass and then yelled at him "If that lawn mower runs over your feet and cuts off your toes, DONT COME RUNNING TO ME"

John T
 
One of your typically informative and humorous explanations, John. (The part about electrocuting a little barefoot girl wasn't humorous, but it probably did get people's attention.)

I have a question about the specific situation you addressed---dealing with two prong outlets in an inadequately wired house (although it may have been wired to code when it was done). Would it do any good to put GFCI outlets in place of the obsolete two prong outlets? If that would work, it would have the advantage of providing an outlet that could accept a three prong plug without doing an illegal and dangerous jump from neutral to ground, or putting in a three prong outlet with the ground not connected to anything.I can't remember whether a GFCI requires connection to a ground wire to function properly. I know I could Google it and find out, but it's more interesting, and usually more informative, to ask you.

Stan
 
John:

Thanks for another clear post that addresses serious safety concerns in common electrical wiring situations!

I especially like your example of having a child hold onto the white (hopefully neutral) wire as a comparison to hooking the ground in 3 wire outlets and fixtures up to what should be a direct GROUND ONLY wire. A really simple way of explaining how someone's life could be saved. Hopefully some of the 'it doesn't matter' folks will take your example to heart.

I just reviewed a new house addition where nearly half of the oulets were wired with the hot & neutral reversed. The jack-leg 'electrician' said it didn't matter. The inspector I pointed it out to said it definitely did matter to him. His exact statement was: "It is no longer 1940."
 
You're welcome, I didn't intend to sound morbid, but thought that example may make people think. However its true, if you connect the outer metal case of the electric blender or refrigerator etc to the Neutral (like using a bootleg ground on the receptacle in a 2 wire circuit) its the same thing as having little Mary or Johnny stick a paper clip into a receptacle and I don't think even Billy Bob would allow that.

John T
 
Good questions Stan, you really read and understood the intention of my post YAYYYYYYYY lol

"Would it do any good to put GFCI outlets in place of the obsolete two prong outlets?"

In my opinion YES because there is still a ton more of protection then before. If the current flowing out the Ungrounded Conductor isn't alllllllll being returned by the Grounded Conductor (and that difference is only like 5 milliamps when it takes around 30 + or - milliamps to fibrillate your heart) because it may be trying to return through your granddaughters little body, THE GFCI OPENS AND DEENERGIZES THE CIRCUIT, that's much safer then what you had prior.

"I can't remember whether a GFCI requires connection to a ground wire to function properly"

Far as I know (but Im a tad rusty) THEY WILL STILL PROVIDE GF PROTECTION (i.e. still function as above) HOWEVER a GFCI tester may not operate correctly without an actual true Equipment Grounding Conductor. They have a torroidal coil through which the Grounded and Ungrounded conductors pass so if current in and out is equal theres no induced voltage, but if its NOT equal (5 milliamps difference) they trip open AND NONE OF THAT REQUIRES THE EQUIPMENT GROUND.

Thanks for your comments, someone actually does read all my jibber jabber lol

PS this was soooooooooo long ago but when doing these weird wiring changes seems we required labeling of such somewhere so the next electrician knows what was done

John T
 
well said John T ! As a professional engineer licensed in two states i couldn't agree more---it is a well known fact that the neutral wire in unbalanced loads or motor EMF will carry a voltage back to the earthen ground---I have been ZAPPED by them in real life!
 
Thanks, hey I HATE to get zapped. The other day I helped an old neighbor install a new porch light, he insured me the switch was OFF and even though I saw it was indeed, not sure if the neutral and not the hot was switched and even though I had and used a tester, I STILL DIDNT PROCEED UNTIL I SHORTED EACH WIRE TO EVERY OTHER WIRE AND TO THE BOX AND THE METAL SIDING and even then I avoided touching any bare wires.......Im a chicken when it comes to electricity but being so has prevented electrocution thus far.......

Once a safety dude came to our facility to give our electricians some schooling and told them when approaching/working an open panel TO ONLY USE ONE HAND to prevent current through the heart then asked some of them to show how they did something in a panel, and you guessed it, they walked up there and stuck BOTH hands in a hot panel at the same time !!!!!!!!!!! You cant make this stuff up............

John T
 
I find this post very interesting. I too lived half my life in a house with 2 prong plugs. It also had lead paint. Like the neighbor lady said. The kids now days can't do much without getting into trouble. How many times did we spend the night at the bar & drove home with no seat belts and we are all still here!.
 
Last I knew NEC approves adding a GFCI on an old 2 wire receptacle circuit.

Something to watch for.
Many years ago when most fresh water pipes in homes was galvanized it was approved to take the panel ground wire to the nearest water pipe, and put a piece of the same size wire, usually #6, as a jumper around the well pump. In those days there was no plastic pipe, so the steel pipe worked as a conductor from the panel to the 2" well.
Then years latter the farm gets a new 4" well with the pump down in the well, and plastic pipe run from the well into the home and hooked to the old galvanized water pipe.

Dusty
 
OK John let me see if I understand the situation correct. The "two-wire" wiring is simply that; no incasement in metal conduit or something else like the old "BX" that my Dad used to install. Thanks as always for your contributions to this forum.
Happy RVing.
 
In answer to the questions on GFCIs , they will work ungrounded. We rewired an old house (on a budget) it only had one receptical per room. Code required 3, so used a "wiremold" box extension and wiremol surface raceway around the room feeding 2 more boxes. Fed GFCI in first box and slaved other recepts through GFCI, met code. Used 3 wires for recepts and it would trip GFCI as it made its own "artificial" ground.
Now for a story, was working in an older home doing a service upgrade 60 amp to 100 amp. The panel was in the kitchen all 2 wire romex no ground. Before killing the power always try to drill all of the holes needed. Well I pluged into a handy 3 prong recept ,knowing it was fed 2 wire and not grounded, cut around existing panel for the new larger panel with sawzall, and switched to drill. I was drilling top plate inside wall for more feeds to the attic . I had the drill in one hand and touched the (grounded) panel with the other, WOW ZAPPED! About that time the boss called to see if I needed anything as he was close. My answer was " Yes a defibrillator" He laughed, I then told him what happened. When I pulled the Bubba installed recept, found Bubba had not tightened the unused screws on the recept and the unused hot screw was against the metal box thus making the box and the ground prong hot through my cord to the case ot the drill. Was not a great day all told. joe
 
I have my dad's big aluminum cased Thor drill and body grinder. They still have the 2 wire cords and plugs on them. I do plan to replace the cords, but it makes me glad to have GFCI's in my shop.
 
Why did you post this esoteric sort of situation? Did you come across a place wired like you describe? I've rewired a lot of houses and can say I ever came across it. That is, never came across a situation where someone just jumped neutral to ground on duplexes. Lots of two-prong ungrounded outlets, yes. Lots of formerly two-prong outlets that were swapped with three prong and nothing hooked to the grounds. I suppose the reason for the latter is the sheer expense. Now adays, two-prong outlets are more expensive then three-prong.
I'm working on a house now where all the wiring is run to two-prong outlets and non-metallic wiring with no ground. I'm just adding GFICs to the circuits except for one room were I was able to fish in a some ground wires and update to grounded duplexes.
 

I have found a few where Bubba and his brother in-law Billy Bob tied the live line to the ground screw on the receptacle instead of the grounded conductor.
 
How did we ever survive?
1: Rode bikes all over (sometimes two or three at once), nobody had a helmet.
2: Skateboards back in the '60s with no pads or helmets.(It was sidewalk surfing back then)
3: No safety interlocks on lawn mowers.
4: Rode in the back of pickups and station wagons.
5: Playground equipment...
6: Skated, played hockey on local ponds.
7: BB guns, bow and arrows.
8: Baseball, no helmets. Lucky to have a good glove. Some had steel cleats.
9: Sleds and toboggans.
10: Thumbed rides.
I could go on. Nobody seriously hurt. What do you remember?
 
You are correct the white wire is insulated and the correct path the current uses to get to ground. Tying the ground to it at the receptacle is basically making the metal housing of any 3 prong item plugged into it part of that white circuit which is carrying current.

Now for what confuses me. In the fuse box the white and ground wires go to the same copper buss. Soooooo, frankly the ground wire is already connected to the white wire.
 
YOUR QUESTIONS

A) "Why did you post this esoteric sort of situation?" (why does anyone here post situations I wonder myself sometimes lol but I try my best to help in a polite and professional manner regardless)

MY ANSWER

I posted it 1) Because I sensed some confusion out there (see my post below) as to how to do it safe and proper 2) I didn't want anyone to think such a system was safe and some child get electrocuted 3) I try to help and educate the fine gents here anytime I think I can or I believe its an important and relevant issue. That's why I posted it, and it appears some people understood and appreciated it and learned from it. There are a few electrically challenged folks out there ya know.

B) "Did you come across a place wired like you describe"

MY ANSWER

YES

I trust this answers your concerns, Best Wishes and God Bless you and have a safe and Happy Christmas

John T
 
Don't feel bad or confused Chris, lots and lots of others who aren't electrically educated don't understand that either. I cant put in a paragraph a complete education for you, but yes indeed the Neutral and Equipment Ground Buss are connected in the Main Panel. HOWEVER from there and downstream from there, the Equipment Grounding Conductor does NOT carry normal live return current, its intended to ONLY provide a low impedance path for fault current. The Neutral on the other hand is a live current carrying conductor. If little Mary touches the refrigerator or stove or blender which is attached to the ground it is NOT hazardous (if alls well) HOWEVER as I described below if she touches the live current carrying Neutral she could be in a hazardous situation.

Hey it was after I studied electricity and engineering and the NEC before I understood this so dont feel bad, you posted a good question and I hope I helped

Best wishes, God Bless, keep safe

John T
 
So have I Glen, hope we help people understand the hazards, BOTH of us have tried for years.

John T
 
Concerning the part that confuses you, the fuse box or breaker box is higher than the outlets, and electricity doesn't run uphill. Don't bother to thank me---you'll never learn unless you ask. In other words, that's always puzzled me too, and it still does.

Stan
 
Wouldn't that make that outlet electrically dead to any appliance that had a two prong plug? I once ran into a situation where something like that had developed by mishap. It was in a kitchen where all the outlets downstream from a certain point were dead, but a microwave which was plugged into the first of the dead outlets still worked. I found it puzzling. What I worked out, eventually, was that a sheetrock nail had pierced the 3 conductor sheathed cable at one point, shorted and burned through the hot wire and fused it to the ground wire there. The ground wire must have burned through at that point so that it was no longer part of the grounding circuit upstream. The microwave worked because it had a three pronged plug, and was getting power through its ground. Apparently that was good enough. The dead outlets must have had live grounds, too, but I hadn't thought to check that. I mean, why would I?

Stan
 
Due to the interest, all the great responses and questions, I took it upon myself to look up what the NEC has to say about replacing old two wire circuit receptacles. I did this in a hurry (I apologize) and unsure what version of the NEC this may be SO NO WARRANTY. Still, I hope yall keep safe out there. This may be right or it may be dead wrong so dont anyone have a calf now.


Sec. 210-7(d)(3) permits any of the following installations when replacing a 2-wire ungrounded receptacle:

(a) Replace it with another 2-wire receptacle;

(b) Replace it with a GFCI-type receptacle and mark the receptacle with the words “No Equipment Ground;” or

(c) Replace it with a grounding-type receptacle protected by a GFCI device (circuit breaker or receptacle). Since the grounding terminals for the receptacles are not grounded, you must mark the receptacles with the words “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground”

NOTE: In the event this posting violates any of the Forums guidelines and was improper, I sincerely apologize, and if Kim poofs it for whatever reason, so be it, no hard feelings. I'm here to help best I can, NOT fight or argue, and I wouldn't intentionally post an improper topic or content nor is it my desire to offend anyone when I make a post.

Best wishes yall n God Bless n keep you safe

Ol John T and all
 
And we carried pocket knives to school and played with guns too. Firecrackers & dynamite were common too. Snowmobiling half the night at -20 or below without a helmet. Born & raised with a wood stove & no smoke detectors. Still use a wood stove. Bedroom in the old house got so cold that beer would freeze under the bed. We had a bull staked out on different grass each day that had to be led by hand to water twice a day. More if it was a hot day.
 
Thanks, BUT

First I'm not sure you mean what you wrote:
fuse box higher than outlets
electricity doesn't run up hill

I'm assuming you mean that be fuse box is down hill from the outlet and electricity doesn't run up hill--back to the outlet?

Which still leaves my question as technically taking any appliance plugged into an outlet (that has it's neutral and ground connected right there), the appliance would be up hill from the outlet thus current should flow readily to the fuse box instead of back to the appliance.

I'm guessing it's more related to distance/resistance to ground. I figure by the time the current gets to the fuse box it's so close to a good ground (the ground rod) it's unlikely (but not impossible) to flow back to a outlet in the house somewhere even if a little girl has inserted a copper wire into that outlet's ground hole and is standing in a bath tub full of water. It's less a sure thing that it will chose the neutral wire vs the girl when the choice is made at the outlet.
 
Have to agree, first time I saw that the only reason I really looked close was the EMT was rotted off and went to replace it, that's how it was hooked up exactly that way, maintenance guy told me it was "code", I just said, "okay, maybe you should leave this stuff alone and call us". This is not uncommon, since I started carrying a smartphone I only wish I could post pictures here, I just shake my head when I see things like that.
 
Well, it was humorous but it has to be some truth there too.

Until this thread I'd never considered the ability ot connect the ground and neutral at an outlet.
 
(quoted from post at 22:47:00 12/07/14) You are correct the white wire is insulated and the correct path the current uses to get to ground. Tying the ground to it at the receptacle is basically making the metal housing of any 3 prong item plugged into it part of that white circuit which is carrying current.

Now for what confuses me. In the fuse box the white and ground wires go to the same copper buss. Soooooo, frankly the ground wire is already connected to the white wire.

There must be a reason.
Why would the current carrying conductors, the white and black be insulated? And the ground wire ran bare?
Why is the grounded current carrying conductor only supposed to be bonded to earth potential at the utility meter or at the first breaker/fuse panel?
Why does a remote panel require a floating neutral bar, a red insulated, black insulated, white insulated and a bare or insulated ground?
Why would them thar edumacatud fancy smancy smarty pants engunears at the utility company and NEC make up such durn fool dumb rules en stuff?
 
(quoted from post at 19:38:24 12/07/14) I find this post very interesting. I too lived half my life in a house with 2 prong plugs. It also had lead paint. Like the neighbor lady said. The kids now days can't do much without getting into trouble. How many times did we spend the night at the bar & drove home with no seat belts and we are all still here!.

Don't know what fantasy land you live in with your eyes and ears covered teddy. We went through the log books from the earliest days at the Father in-laws firehall.
There entries were too many to count of farm incidents with pto's, roll overs, augers, corn headers etc.
Being ejected through windshields was common in motor vehicle wreck. Having to jack the steering column forward to free trapped drivers was common.
Drink drivers and booze bottles in the vehicle was the norm.
Head and facial injuries of skate boarders, bicyclists, motor cyclists and snowmobilers was common.
Fishing drowned children out of creeks occurred every spring.
Fires from smoking in bed was common. Killed whole households since there were no smoke detectors to warn other household members.
 
The big problem with the bootleg ground is if the white neutral wire goes open for any reason.
In an old two wire circuit without ground,If the neutral goes open and the device it powers has no fault, the device just stops running. No harm done.

If a newer 2 wire with ground socket is connected to old wiring without a ground wire,and has a bootleg jumper from neutral to the ground pin, and the neutral goes open, the machine cabinet will now be electrically hot and anyone touching that cabinet and ground will complete a return path through their body.
In my opinion, that bootleg ground to neutral is much worse than no ground connection at all.
 
(quoted from post at 01:26:10 12/08/14) Exactly, but what? What is that reason?

Could you just not trust us? Do you have your physician explain organic chemistry while writing a prescription?
 

RANT ALERT do NOT read but if you do that's NOT my problem lol take it to the administrator if you have a problem with it

Glen, I've been here around 15 years or so and tried my best to explain to non electricians and non engineers and the Billy Bobs out there who wired their house over a case of beer n by golly it works, the difference between the GrounDED Conductor (White Neutral) and the Equipment GroundING Conductor (Bare/Green) and the purpose of each and why they shouldn't be mixed and matched and substituted grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

But in frustration and although I try my best I HAVE FAILED they're never gonna understand it or admit it or that theres even the slightest chance that the worlds finest trained professional true experts who wrote the NEC might just possibly know more then they do. NO WAY THATS POSSIBLE IN THEIR MINDS LOL They who aren't formally electrical trained or experienced still (in their minds) know more then the NEC experts. OKAYYYYYYYYYYY LOL. They point to how it changes and yes indeed if a life is lost or a building burns down they investigate and determine the cause and find a way to improve things so it may not happen again.

Its just human nature and goes with the territory so I accept it and still try to help and educate although it gets frustrating as theres no argument or logic or engineering or science that will convince them. Regardless whats explained to them its NEVER enough and it will NEVER be enough ITS THEIR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY lol Its impossible to put a lifetime of learning and experience in a paragraph here to convince them or explain it but I still try

As a father and grandfather myself, I just don't want to see one of their little kids or grandkids killed because them or their brother in law wired something DEAD WRONG. If that makes me the bad guy SO BE IT.......If my posting this in the first place in hopes to save a life or if it violates some Forum policy, again Im the bad guy and so be it.

Ever notice how the trained professional experienced electricians and engineers here usually agree on proper Grounding and NEC compliance and safety etc., while its the non trained non professional or less experienced gents who argue against the same and know better HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

HOWEVER this is NOT against the gents who have legitimate questions and concerns who are willing to listen and learn and whom Im glad to help, Im NOT intending to let a few bad apples spoil the barrel, for the most part the gents here are fine polite people and Im glad to help them anyway I can

God Bless all, Merry Christmas, keep safe, don't do as I say, consult the NEC is my advice unless you're smarter then they are then feel free to do as you please

John T
 
Don't be disheartened, John. I don't think the situation on this forum is as bad as you're describing it. You educate a lot of people here, and when people ask the same questions time after time, it appears to me that they are either new to the forum or regulars who haven't previously been interested in reading about topics that didn't pertain to them at that moment. You also have to keep in mind that a certain proportion of education is always useless because of the "you can't fix stupid" problem (which I've come to feel there's much less of here than there would be in a equivalent sized random sampling of the population). When people ask for clarification on a matter, it doesn't necessarily mean that they disagree. Sometimes it's just a matter of style; some people can't comment on the weather without sounding like they want to argue about it.

Keep at it. Your postings are useful and enjoyable.

Stan
 
I'm not sure why people get so freaked out about knob-and-tube wiring. If it's properly installed, there's basically no way for the conductors to short together (since they're so far apart), the wires can't come apart since all the splices are soldered, and wherever they enter a box they're doubly insulated (the wire insulation and then a sleeve of the stuff called "loom"). We have lived in a house wired that way for 20+ years and the only repairs I've had to make are on newer sections made from Romex or metal conduit.

Granted, there can be some spooky stuff in pre-Code setups. Our garage's early-1900s sub-panel has fuses on both the hot and neutral legs. My solution was to put much higher amperage fuses on the neutral side, because having the fuse on neutral blow instead of the fuse on hot could be suicide-ville.
 
THANKS for the kind words Stan, indeed I do get frustrated time to time lol I dont intend to open huge cans of worms or start feuds or break forum rules by posting or offend anyone......

John T
 
Next you're going to tell me not to use a Christmas light string as an extension cord for an 1800 watt space heater!

I've never run across a ground bonded to neutral at an outlet. Scary, very scary.

When we bought this place in '01 (built in early 60's) It had basically an 80 amp service that had shop and barn and outbuildings patched on over the years. Big mess. The box in the house was in good shape and wired correctly. However, between the meter and the house box there was only a disconnect (newer) and only a disconnect. No fuses. The house could have drawn whatever it wanted!
 
Hey that's one way your house can draw all the current it needs lol Just don't fool with a pesky overcurrent protection device !!!!!!!!! Who came up with such an idea anyway ???

Indeed in around fifty years as either a beginning teen hobbyist then an electrical engineer IVE SEEN IT ALL including bootleg grounded receptacles and lots worse and some even still "worked" what else can I say. While most likely have never ran across such hazards, that sure dont mean there aren't plenty out there waiting to bite you or burn down a structure GRRRRRRRRR

Fun chat, take care n keep safe now

John T
 
"Next you're going to tell me not to use a Christmas light string as an extension cord for an 1800 watt space heater!"

No, that would be dangerous, UNLESS it was one of those Amish built Chinese heaters that deliver 1800 watts worth of heat for only 900 watts of electricity used. You can run any number of those on 20 gauge bell wire because once you learn how to break the laws of thermodynamics, there's no limit to what you can do.

Stan
 
Good job explaining. I work with propane and see a lot of unsafe installations in that field too. But "it works just fine" until it doesn't.
With all this talk about GFCIs has anyone else seen a GFCI burned up by using a surge diverter on it? Doesn't seem to be a safe combination.
 

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