Ground Wire John T

Ted in NE-OH

Well-known Member
I have a house with only 2 - wire plugs built in 1958 and want to run a third wire for a ground #12 green. I can't replace the existing wire with new wire. If I run the ground wire to a number of plugs do the splices need to be in a box?? This is a non current carrying wire.
 
What is done is to put GFIs in place of your old receptacles. There is no code way to enter a box with a single 12 wire [which would have to be boxed ]. A single 12 awg wire would have to be in pipe or some type raceway to protect it ,even though it is a non current carying greound. When a time comes for it to carry current ,it is alot of current.
 
Ted, there are ways to do what you want which would "work" as Billy Bob and Bubba will tell you, but to do it safest and especially IF the NEC is of any concern or adopted or required in your Jurisdiction THATS ANOTHER STORY.

To begin with, while perhaps Romex or non metallic sheathed cable may be proper for residential home and stud wall wiring methods, a single insulated non sheathed wire may or more likely MAY NOT be permitted in your jurisdiction. Normally, (how I was taught and in every jurisdiction I practiced) the Ungrounded Conductor and the Neutral Grounded Conductor and the Equipment GroundING Conductor ARE ALL CONTAINED IN THE SAME RACEWAY OR JACKET OR ENCLOSURE.

THAT ALL BEING SAID (cant help myself) to your more specific question. YES splices should be in an enclosed readily accessible junction box (cant have them alone in the wall or in a hidden box DUH) and if the box is metal, it also needs bonded to the Equipment GroundING Conductor.

TRUE the Equipment GroundING Conductor is usually NOT a current carrying conductor as its intended to ONLY carry Fault Current. HOWEVER that's when its the most important and valuable and may be required to conduct a total short circuit fault and carry high current and develop heat even though only for a short time until the breaker trips IF ALL IS WELL AND IT WORKS AS DESIGNED. Often theres only smaller currents in the normal wiring but Fault current is often HIGH so you want such a conductor in a protected proper safe environment. UNDERSTAND the wiring may be rated for only 15 or 20 amps BUT A DEAD SHORT CIRCUIT AT 120 VOLTS WILL (until breaker trips) CARRY MUCH HIGHER CURRENT AND CAN DEVELOP HEAT AND/OR MELT THE INSULATION. True its the same size of wire as the others, Im just saying the enclosure or raceway or wiring method or cable type is very important even if carrying fault current only.

So for Billy Bob and Bubba and before anyone has a calf, YES it will work,,,,,,,,,, NO it may well NOT be the safest and NEC (if adopted or required) approved,,,,,,,,,,,,FOR SURE make any splices in an accessible Junction Box IM SURE YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT

NOTE there are a lot of current practicing trained professional electricians and engineers here (plus plenty of lay Billy Bobs with opinions and methods that will "work") so see what they have to say as I'm pretty rusty on the latest codes and practices.

NOTE they make plastic flexible conduit into which individual wires can be used, that may be one wiring method to consider. The thing I can’t say is what’s required where you live or what wiring methods are permissible IM ONLY SAYING RUNNING INDIVIDUAL WIRES NOT KNOWING THE WIRE OR CABLE OR ENCLOSURES OR JACKETING MAKES ME NERVOUS as I was taught and practiced having all wires in the same enclosure or jacket etc.

Your intention is good as 3 wire receptacles provide more safety, just be sure to do it safe and proper, but stringing individual wires in an existing home that aren't in an approved raceway or enclosure or part of a multi wire assembly would raise red flags in my rusty but well intentioned opinion.

Do as you like, not my call, but please keep safe

PS Good Sparky man drsporster raised a good question about using GFCI’s.

John T
 
(quoted from post at 18:21:15 12/05/14) What is done is to put GFIs in place of your old receptacles.

Am I understanding correctly that I could use GFI receptacles on two wire circuits to enhance the safety? What about GFCI breakers?

My home was originally wired with only two wires. Since I've owned it I have been replacing that when I do a major renovation to some part of it. Nonetheless some circuits are still only two wires. I have wondered whether there is something I could do to increase the safety of those circuits (safety both to residents and the structure).
 
The gfci comment is on the money. A thought along that line is that the gfci can be used to protect other outlets "downstream" so that not every outlet needs to be a gfci. Also if the house was wired in 2 wire cloth covered wire or in 2 wire armored cable (wound metal sheathing). If it is armored then the metal sheathing was designed to be the ground and is grandfathered in. New armored cable has a ground wire inside along with other conductors.
 
I would go talk to your local electrical inspector and ask him what is the right and lowest cost approach to your concern and ask him to show you in the NEC book where this requirement is covered.

personally, I would run a ground wire for each circuit + add one GFI at the beginning of each circuit
 
(quoted from post at 16:32:43 12/05/14) The gfci comment is on the money. A thought along that line is that the gfci can be used to protect other outlets "downstream" so that not every outlet needs to be a gfci. Also if the house was wired in 2 wire cloth covered wire or in 2 wire armored cable (wound metal sheathing). If it is armored then the metal sheathing was designed to be the ground and is grandfathered in. New armored cable has a ground wire inside along with other conductors.

The problem with the old type armored cable, BX, is that that if it happens to short to a hot conductor, it turns into a coil type heating element. Which can cause a fire.

And yes least 3 others have beat me at adding GFCIs.


Dusty
 
If it was wired years ago the three wire grounding receptacles may not have been required so its grandfathered in.

A ground wire for each branch circuit and new 3 wire grounding receptacles is a good way to modernize and update provided he can run the three required conductors in an approved method.

John T
 
Hey Dusty Man, as I'm sure you're well aware, Even if the metal shield is used for fault current return, its NOT approved unless each and every connection and splice and termination has the proper bonds and I wouldn't bet my life that's so especially in an older 2 wire receptacle installation. I wouldn't place much faith in that set up and prefer 3 wires, Hot, Neutral, Ground.

May see you in January

John T
 
Hmmmmm, first I've heard of that. Learn
something new everyday. Most times the
breaker should trip it, unless its a "fire
pacific"
 
Our preacher bought a house same era as yours. Ungrounded receptacles. Insurance man said he needed to upgrade his wiring for grounded receptacles, so he bought a bunch of those 89 cent receptacles and installed them - no ground. I wasn't privy to his conversation when the insurance guy made his second inspection, but somehow he got insurance, and is real proud of himself. Looks like the insurance guy would have had one of those plug-in circuit checkers, but I guess he figured that a preacher wouldn't lie to him. Several of us in the church tried to get him to at least install GFI's, but he's the smartest man on the planet, and there's no helping someone with that attitude. Just another Billy Joe Bob idea, as John sez.
Untitled URL Link
 
Trouble is the breaker doesn't trip unless there's an overload (like 15 or 20 amps) yet far less amps then required to trip the breaker can still produce enough heat to start a fire///

John T
 
At 55+ years old, other things in the house might also be ready for a remodel or upgrade in the near future: circuit panel; wiring; insulation; windows; siding; sheet rock, floors; cabinets; plumbing, TV & internet cables; etc. Rewiring would be much easier and would cost less if you waited until the next time house is remodeled.
 
The fix for this is really easy, and I am sure some will disagree but it is legal. You simply run a short wire from your common wire to your ground on the plug. Problem is solved. I have helped several electricians here in Texas and they all have me do this in older houses and building. It is a code legal fix.
 
WOW you mean what electricians and inspectors call a BOOTLEG GROUND??? I hope and pray you don't mean installation of a 3 wire receptacle on a two wire circuit by jumping the Safety equipment Ground pole to the Neutral pole YIKES

If anyone out there does that please please first consult local trained professionals and the NEC and local authority or inspectors, please don't put your or your kids or grandkids lives at risk..

DO NOT do as I say or what I advise, I'm long retired as an AC Distribution Design Engineer and rusty on the latest codes which may have changed, but instead consult local trained experienced professionals and engineers and inspectors and electricians (NOT Billy Bob and Bubba or other lay persons) before you run out and install 3 wire receptacles on two wire circuit by JUMPING THE GROUND TO NEUTRAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that's safe and proper where you live and trained professional inspectors and electricians and engineers and/or the NEC approve it, FINE BY ME, do as yall please, not what I may think, Ive been wrong before, but in my heart of hearts and best I recall IT CAN BE HAZARDOUS to install a bootleg ground YIKES

See if other trained professional electricians and engineers or inspectors approve a bootleg ground by jumping Neutral to Ground, even if lay persons or Billy Bob or Bubba tell you its fine and will work??????????????????????????

God Bless and yall keep safe now, and wire as you please, its your home and life at risk not mine, just use caution

John T Long retired Electrical Engineer
 

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