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Electrical Service Grounding

J

John T

Well-known Member
Down below some of the good gents spoke of something to the effect of having or NOTTTTT having a ground rod when they ran an electrical service say for example out to a pole barn or shop or detached garage etc. etc. Although I'm rusty as an old nail on the latest codes, I could swear (best of my old memory lol) that any buildings electrical service required a local grounding electrode(s) (Such as say a driven ground rod or rods plus other readily available grounding electrodes). So I issued a challenge for anyone to help enlighten and educate me and provide any code that said to the effect a buildings electrical service DID NOT REQUIRE a local Grounding Electrode. Well I dusted off one old book and found this:

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50 Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode.

SO QUESTION Can any professional electricians or engineers out there or even the fine lay gents here guide me and educate me to any code that justifies when or where a buildings electrical service does NOT need a grounding electrode????????? I'm never too old to learn so if an electrical service at your pole barn or shop no longer requires a local
grounding electrode (such as say a "made" electrode like a driven rod) PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ALL OF US

NOTE YES Billy Bob, most of us in the trade are aware the NEC in and of itself is NOT a law passed by Congress or other legislators. However, once a local governing authority ADOPTS a certain version of the NEC it then has the weight and affect of law. Seems most populated areas of the country have adopted some version of the NEC (and Chicago has a code if I recall), while some more rural areas may not. Of course, some local "inspector" may or may not understand or interpret some section and therefore, may or may not require something. But hey if they sign off, you're good to go if you're happy, its NOT up to me to do their job. If non electrical trained non professional limited experience Billy Bob thinks he knows more then the NEC expert team authors, that's fine by me, its his or his kids and grandkids or his shop that's at risk, not me, do as anyone pleases.

SOOOOOOOOO please help us all out and cite any codes or authority that describes when and where and why a buildings electrical service doesn't need or shouldn't use a local Grounding Electrode. I just cant envision why a typical outbuilding or shop or garage or home WOULD NOT have its electrical service grounded!!! Yes Billy Bob, I'm aware of a sub panels isolated and insulated Neutral and Ground bond.

NOTE Im talking about grounded AC systems here, not any DC or any ungrounded system.

Usually electrical topics draw the most opinions and interest, while I'm looking for specifics and some code or authority or educated scholarship as to why a buildings electrical service would NOT have a grounding electrode??? I'm just not aware of any so maybe we will all learn from this, I sure hope so.

God Bless all here and thanks for inputs (Profession and lay alike) which I certainly appreciate.

John T Too long retired n rusty EE who still loves to learn
 
Thanks David, yep still kicking and still love to learn anything that's new in the NEC. My old book is so outdated grrrrrrrr. Years ago when I was practicing we were required to attend NEC update Seminars given by true electrical "experts" such as Joe McPartland of EC&M or Mike Holt etc. My gosh those guys were so smart, those were fun times when my brain comprehended that stuff, but now I have to ask these kind of questions.

Best wishes n God Bless

John T
 
A little off your topic I guess but the mine regulators were many years ahead of the NEC in upgrading grounding requirements. Many years ago, when clothes driers still had three wire plugs and they would wire up your 220 well pump on two wires we in the mines had to drive a ground mat (not just a rod or two at each substation and megger it and record the results. Everything that operated from that substation had to have a continuous ground path to the mat meggered and recorded. In those early day the ground wire had to be a separate bare wire. Later they let us use the ground wire in SO type cord.

My mining past told me to run ground rods when I added sub panels (and I meggered them, haha!) at home plus separate, or unbond you guys say, the ground from the neutral which only made sense to me inspite of the fact I am ignorant of how the NEC applies to residential services.
 
Butch, yep in wet underground mines, Id sure want a good grounding system so anything I came in contact with didn't have a voltage potential higher then the ground upon which I stood or with another object. Likewise, look at swimming pool grounding requirements which rightfully are pretty strict.

As far as isolated separate Neutral and ground Busses in sub panels, that's to achieve SINGLE POINT GROUNDING and to insure Equipment Grounding Conductors are dedicated to carry ONLY fault current while Neutral grounded conductors carry normal return current. If you go mixing and matching and running the two in parallel you defeat that objective big time.

John T
 
Isn't that what I did when I separated them at the
sub panel and ran the ground to ground rods and the
neutral back to the main?
 
John T - I have no idea who your stereotypical "Billy Bob" is supposed to be. Not sure I understand the spirit of your question either. Seems (to me) that your question is more like two questions.

You wrote . . "cite any codes or authority that describes when and where and why a buildings electrical service doesn't need or shouldn't use a local Grounding Electrode. I just cant envision why a typical outbuilding or shop or garage or home WOULD NOT have its electrical service grounded!!! Yes Billy Bob,"

So, I'm asking for clarification. Are you asking about NOT grounding an AC service at all? Or are you asking about the use of two ground systems, i.e. one at the main entrance panel with a bonded neutral, and another at a branch panel at an out-building? The latter is along the line of what the poster asked earlier about if he needed to put in additional ground electrodes in a new out-building OR ground that branch-panel via a ground wire running all the way back to the main entrance panel.
 
From the 2011 NEC which applies to many states in the USA. Eight states are still using NEC version 2008 and four states do not use the NEC at all. 15 states are using much of the 2015 code.

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:
See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:
(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.
(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.
(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).

The second exception applies to a building supplied by a feeder from an outdoor transformer, where system bonding jumpers are installed in accordance with 250.30(A)(1), Exception No. 2. The feeder grounded circuit conductor at the building served shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductor, and the enclosure for the first disconnecting means.
 
(quoted from post at 13:28:25 11/10/14) Isn't that what I did when I separated them at the
sub panel and ran the ground to ground rods and the
neutral back to the main?
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain that you have the neutral isolated from the ground everywhere except for one point.
 
JD, I want to first thank you and everyone else for their inputs, I appreciate them all and don't consider any, be they antecdotal or otherwise, be they lay or professional, as useless. I'm here to help others and learn myself, but I'm not aware of situations where connection to a Grounding Electrode IS NOT REQUIRED for a building's electrical service. If I were to run service to my remote pole barn, you better believe there would be a ground rod(s) at that building, and I cant find any code NEC or Chicago or UL or any authority whatsoever saying its NOT required....

PREFACE:

This is response to other postings where some lay persons seem confused as to whether or not when they ran an electrical service out to a remote shop or pole barn or garage etc., they needed to install a Grounding Electrode (ground rod) there or not????? It's my professional opinion that every buildings electrical service requires connection to a grounding electrode (perhaps a driven rod) so YES, a ground rod (or other suitable electrode) is required at the garage or pole barn etc. I then offered an NEC citation stating that and asked if anyone could cite a reference stating that a buildings electrical service DOES NOT require connection to a grounding electrode. When you run power out to your pole barn do you need a ground rod (or other suitable electrode) there??????????????

Your questions:

1) "So, I'm asking for clarification. Are you asking about NOT grounding an AC service at all?"

ANSWER

NOPE I'm asking if when you run a grounded (whats typically serving your house or commercial building etc) AC service to a building or shop or pole barn or garage etc. if it requires connection to a Grounding Electrode there. Or can anyone provide a citation saying no connection to a grounding electrode is required at a buildings electrical service ????


2) "Or are you asking about the use of two ground systems, i.e. one at the main entrance panel with a bonded neutral, and another at a branch panel at an out-building?"

YES I'm asking for an NEC or a UL citation or other authority or scholarship that says if you run an electrical service out to a remote outbuilding fed from say a main panelboard in your home (or otherwise), connection there to a grounding electrode (ground rod) IS NOT REQUIRED. I'm asking that because its my opinion, based on the NEC cite below, any buildings electrical service requires connection to a grounding electrode.

HERES AN NEC CITE, not sure what version, sorry:

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50 Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode.

SO CAN ANYONE PROVIDE A CITE WHERE A PREMISES ELECTRICAL SERVICE DOES NOT REQUIRE CONNECTION TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE

This is NOT a fight, its a legitimate question so I can learn if and when the NEC or Chicago Code or the UL or any authority DOES NOT require a buildings electrical service be connected to a Grounding Electrode. I THINK ANY BUILDINGS SERVICE DOES NEED A CONNECTION TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE but if thats not right I want to learn.


Thanks again, God Bless JD and all here

John T
 
Thank you JD for taking the time and an interest in this topic. VERY GOOD CITATION, QUESTION AND ANSWER. Mike Holts website (and others) is chock full of that kind of information and great questions and answers.

The quoted question: "Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?"

That's very good, helpful and informative, and I appreciate your inputs, your time and talent, although not the info I was looking for. It asks if the grounded conductor (that's the Neutral for Billy Bob out there) can be used as the ground fault return path. In the old 3 wire 120/240 system where a separate isolated Equipment Grounding Conductor was NOT ran to outbuildings, Neutral could carry fault current HOWEVER in the new 4 wire system, the grounded conductor IS NOT used to carry fault return current but the separate Equipment Grounding Conductor is.

Im asking if there are places or conditions or exceptions where at a buildings electrical service a connection to a grounding electrode IS NOT REQUIRED since I'm almost positive such a connection is required per the cite below:

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50 Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode.

Thanks again JD for all your help and interest.

John T
 
PS, Sorry JD, I overlooked one of your questions, namely:

"John T - I have no idea who your stereotypical "Billy Bob" is supposed to be"

It's sort of an inside joke among several of us sparkies who regularly post here lol


Billy Bob and Bubba, they are the PURELY FICTIONAL non electrical trained non professional electrically challenged dudes who wired their own home or shop while drinking a case of beer and proclaim By Golly it works just fine so it must be right and to heck with any inspectors or electricians or professionals who say otherwise lol

By the way, FWIW I certainly would NOT include you in there !!!! You're a great asset in my humble opinion when it comes to Solar Power and Batteries etc etc etc

Best wishes

John T
 
Home Depot and Lowes stores used to have a display in the electrical section which showed: Electric meter base to 200 amp panel and branch panel located somewhere else.

The sales rep. once told me the display was current with the latest regulations for within the sales area.

HTH John,PA
 
I've always felt that even if someone is doing electrical installation in an area that is not under NEC, all work should still meet NEC standards. If you don't the owner could have a problem with his insurance company.

Dusty
 
So, did they show the Grounded Conductor (Neutral) bonded to the Grounding Electrode Conductor (bare No. 4 copper wire that leads outside to the Grounding Electrode(s) )

a) In the Meter Base,,,,,,,,,,,,,or

b) In the Main Panels Neutral Buss, or

c) Perhaps it was ran up to the weatherhead riser where the incoming Utility Neutral splices to the customers Neutral drop to his mater base then panel.

I don't expect you would remember any of that, but I'm just asking as I've seen all 3 ways here in our own jurisdiction.

I know this "dude" who bonded the No 4 bare copper grounding electrode conductor to the driven ground rod, then it was pulled unspliced to and through the meter base where it bonded to the Neutral there, then it continued inside to the panels Neutral Buss where it finally terminated NOT SURE IF THATS NEC APPROVED OR NOT LOL I usually saw only one bond (riser or meter base or panel)

Oh well

John T
 
I am willing to volunteer to be a step brother to Billy Bob. I have earned that title from the mistakes I have made and will never get around to correcting them. If I told you all of my mistakes I made you could start a comedy column.
 
Dusty, yourself and other trained professional electricians and electrical engineers I know (several) all feel the same. Even if the NEC wasn't adopted where we were practicing, its my opinion their methods and practices and advice IS THE BEST AND SAFEST OUT THERE and that's how I would design or install a system regardless. If others want to do it different, fine, that's their free choice, its their life or home at risk not mine. (and I will install an earth ground at any buildings electrical service until I'm shown otherwise )

PS This winter I may spend a night or two at either Zephyrpalms (formerly Jims I think) in Zephyrhills or Many Mansions RV Park in Dade City, and I will be at BOTH Jan and Feb Flywheelers all week so I hope we can meet up again.

Still have your AC hat????

John T
 
Im NOT surprised JD, brevity is NOT my strong suit, why use a few words when a hundred can be worked in lol It's just a bad habit as words are the only thing a lawyer has to sell.

Best wishes

John T
 
As I hope you know, I mean no offense and apologize if any is ever taken, its just my bad sense of humor maybe and I'm about as much a redneck as anyone here in real life and proud of it............

John T Old Christian Conservative Fuddy Duddy also
 
PS This winter I may spend a night or two at either Zephyrpalms (formerly Jims I think) in Zephyrhills or Many Mansions RV Park in Dade City, and I will be at BOTH Jan and Feb Flywheelers all week so I hope we can meet up again.

Still have your AC hat????

John T[/quote]

John T.
It would be great to get together.
I'll e-mail you a map.

Dusty
 
I do know this: Especially in an old house within local juristinctions: Small villages, here.

Request from refrigeration customer: Would I install a new water heater in my house. SURE!

I provide the new STATE water heater, do the necessary plumbing, in most cases modern code requires "TEMPERING VALVE".

His local registered electrician must provide 230/1/60 to the heater.
Generally, the old houses have only 2 prong outlets. Therefore, according to my liability insurance co. their electrician must figger out about the 3rd wire. GROUND?

John,PA
 
The codes I have seen state 2 grounds at the main box and one at the out buildings (can use water pipes IF all ways filled with water as one grounding point) so my theory is the more the merry!
Ypop
 
Does this mean I cannot be Billy Bob's step brother that put a switch on the neutral wire or the one that connected the neutral last when hooking back up under power? I did all of these things
 
John , After reading all of the posts, I am more confused than ever. That said "in new work" meaning a new feeder to a building 4 wires are necessary. neutral, ground , and 2 hot legs. The only place that the neutral and ground are "bonded together" is at the first disconect at the service, after that the ground and neutral are seperate conductors. The service must have a ground rod, and be "bonded" to all metal pipeing systems. We had to run a ground wire to the water service pipe ahead of the water meter. The water meter must have a bypass wire around the meter so if replaced the plumber would not be breaking the possable current flowing in the pipe. At the water heater we bonded the hot to cold and to the gas pipe so that if/ when the waterheater was replaced the plumber would not be shocked.

Clear as mud? I was an electrician 40 years and still had to carry a code book in the service truck.

All this being said if I came across an outbuliding fed with 3 wires I would drive a ground rod and treat it as a "service". All depends on the inspector, bottom line.

Now for the disclamer " check with a local electrician and the local building inspectors."

joe
 
What about places that do not, I repeat do not have an inspection. I'm sure the electrician does it to code but there is no inspections.
 
I'm not helping any, but I always wondered about this too.

If each building has 4 wire service, and also has a ground rod - doesn't that create some odd loops that the 4 wire, separate ground wire tries to avoid to start with? It is no longer separate ground and neutral once you put the ground rod in?

Paul
 
(quoted from post at 18:04:39 11/10/14) PS This winter I may spend a night or two at either Zephyrpalms (formerly Jims I think) in Zephyrhills or Many Mansions RV Park in Dade City, and I will be at BOTH Jan and Feb Flywheelers all week so I hope we can meet up again.

Still have your AC hat????

John T
Click to expand...

John T.
It would be great to get together.
I'll e-mail you a map.

Dusty[/quote]

John T.
Send me an e-mail, your PM is not working.

I have several AC hats.
Dusty
 
Good morning old, I don't really see all that much confusion in the electrical community (perhaps in Billy Bobs family lol)

If out at the remote buildings service sub panel (modern 4 wire method) you still bond to a grounding electrode (rods and water/gas pipes etc) and the Neutral buss and and Equipment Grounding Buss are bonded ONLY at the main, you have satisfied the NEC requirement that any premises wiring shall be connected to a grounding electrode and you have still complied with the new 4 wire requirements with separate and isolated Neutral and Ground out at the sub. Maybe Im not understanding you but I just dont see any problem??? Sorry if were boring others

Thanks for your post

John T Long retired EE
 
If there's no local authority or inspections,I guess you can do as you please!!!!!

That being said, the vast majority of trained professional electricians and engineers who understand electricity and code (NOT Billy Bob and Bubba) would still wire it per the NEC so maybe that tells you something???????? Do as experts advise or do as Billy Bob suggests, your choice.

God Bless and keep safe, thanks for your post

John T
 
Good morning Paul VERY GOOD QUESTIONS in my opinion. Here's my take, NO WARRANTY MIND YOU I'm rusty on latest codes and procedures. That's the very reason I posed the question to see if there was any new section that DID NOT require a buildings electrical service to be connected to a grounding electrode. It remains my opinion any buildings electrical service requires a grounding electrode connection.......


QUESTION

"If each building has 4 wire service, and also has a ground rod - doesn't that create some odd loops that the 4 wire, separate ground wire tries to avoid to start with?

MY RESPONSE

Other then possible loops and alternate paths through mother earth when there's a surge or lightning strike etc.,, I don't see or understand "odd loops" with the modern 4 wire system. There's still only SINGLE POINT GROUNDING BONDING of Neutral Buss to Ground Buss at the main service, and you carry separate individual isolated Neutral and Ground wires (in 4 wire system) all the way down the pike.

QUESTION

"It is no longer separate ground and neutral once you put the ground rod in?"

MY RESPONSE

WHY NOT!! At the remote sub panel the Neutral Buss and Ground Buss are separate and electrically isolated, they ARE STILL KEPT SEPARATE.

FYI Due to the fact equipment grounding conductors are ran in parallel with hot ungrounded conductors there's capacitance and inductance so out at the barn the equipment ground may be at a higher potential them mother earth, but when you drive a ground rod you can bring it back down to local earth potential so old bossy isn't shocked at the automatic electrically heated water tank. Thats a part of the NEC where it talks about exceptions for ag buildings used to house livestock.

Thanks for your interest and good questions, sorry if were boring others to tears

Best wishes, John T headed to the local American Legion for lunch and ceremonies
 

How do you figure that a parallel path between ground and neutral is being formed with a four wire system with a floating neutral at the remote panels?
 
Hello, John. This is a dated NEC, but the question seems to still be a good one. Why was it safe enough to need no ground rod at the out building supplied by a single branch circuit (exception No 1), but not safe enough if supplied by a feeder/sub-panel arrangement?
 
I sure wish they would have called it the neutral wire and the
safety wire, so we could sensibly talk about grounding different
wires! :)

Ok, when we drive a ground rod out at a sub panel, what wire
are we actually connecting to this ground?


My farm was rewired in 2008 and was under the old code
locally so only needed 3 wires, could treat each building as a
separate service. So haven't seen the 4 wire setups, as to
what is actually being grounded on a rod at each sub.

Is the neutral buss only run to the ground rods at each sub?

Paul
 
"Ok, when we drive a ground rod out at a sub panel, what wire
are we actually connecting to this ground?"
[b:8c77a7d50e][i:8c77a7d50e]Only the safety ground, called the grounding conductor[/i:8c77a7d50e][/b:8c77a7d50e]



My farm was rewired in 2008 and was under the old code
locally so only needed 3 wires, could treat each building as a
separate service. So haven't seen the 4 wire setups, as to
what is actually being grounded on a rod at each sub.

Is the neutral buss only run to the ground rods at each sub?

[b:8c77a7d50e][i:8c77a7d50e]NO, the neutral, called grounded conductor, is kept isolated at the sub-panels.[/i:8c77a7d50e][/b:8c77a7d50e][/i]
 
(quoted from post at 08:52:43 11/11/14) I sure wish they would have called it the neutral wire and the
safety wire, so we could sensibly talk about grounding different
wires! :)

Me too, neutral conductor and ground conductor, worked very well for years and years.
Grounded conductor and grounding conductor, to me is very confusing.

Dusty

Ok, when we drive a ground rod out at a sub panel, what wire
are we actually connecting to this ground?

Like was said, before the code change, which you said is in your case, out buildings were treated like a new service, where the first panel is a Main Panel. So the neutral is bonded to the ground in that panel.

This is old code and is Grandfathered. Everything new today is different, and MUST have 4 wires/conductors.

Dusty


My farm was rewired in 2008 and was under the old code
locally so only needed 3 wires, could treat each building as a
separate service. So haven't seen the 4 wire setups, as to
what is actually being grounded on a rod at each sub.

Is the neutral buss only run to the ground rods at each sub?

No in 4 wire, the neutral in ALL sub panels MUST be isolated from any grounding except at the MAIN Panel, which is at the service.

Dusty

Paul
Click to expand...
 
QUESTION

"Ok, when we drive a ground rod out at a sub panel, what wire are we actually connecting to this ground?"

ANSWER (simple) Out at the Sub Panel the Grounding Electrode Conductor (often bare copper) that bonds to the Grounding Electrode (say a driven into earth copper rod or other electrodes) is wired to the panels EQUIPMENT GROUND BUSS

Got it???

John T
 
I was aware of that exception but cant really answer WHY. I'm the dude who started this whole mess lol but am worn down trying to answer all the questions. Let me think out loud here a while.

A single branch circuit would still have Hot, Neutral, Ground out from a main panel somewhere and due to mutual inductance and capacitance the Equipment Ground may be at a higher potential then mother earth SO I WOULD PREFER TO BRING IT BACK DOWN TO EARTH AGAIN USIGN A GROUND ROD , not sure why its NOT required??

If you ran a 120/240 out the sames still true

I just dont know why its NOT required for a single branch circuit??? If I weren't so worn down Id take a cruise over to Mike Holt I bet the answer is there somewhere but Im not smart enough to know why

Sorry JMOR wish I could help as you have helped me and others before.

John T
 
In case it got lost below (wish I hadn't started this darn mess lol)

If you run 4 wires out to a remote sub panel and, of course, since each buildings service requires connection to a grounding electrode, the Grounding Electrode Conductor is attached to the Equipment Ground Buss.

Whewwwwwwwww lol Thanks for all the inputs and help

John T
 
(quoted from post at 18:05:27 11/10/14) Down below some of the good gents spoke of something to the effect of having or NOTTTTT having a ground rod when they ran an electrical service say for example out to a pole barn or shop or detached garage etc. etc. Although I'm rusty as an old nail on the latest codes, I could swear (best of my old memory lol) that any buildings electrical service required a local grounding electrode(s) (Such as say a driven ground rod or rods plus other readily available grounding electrodes). So I issued a challenge for anyone to help enlighten and educate me and provide any code that said to the effect a buildings electrical service DID NOT REQUIRE a local Grounding Electrode. Well I dusted off one old book and found this:

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50 Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode.

SO QUESTION Can any professional electricians or engineers out there or even the fine lay gents here guide me and educate me to any code that justifies when or where a buildings electrical service does NOT need a grounding electrode????????? I'm never too old to learn so if an electrical service at your pole barn or shop no longer requires a local
grounding electrode (such as say a "made" electrode like a driven rod) PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ALL OF US

NOTE YES Billy Bob, most of us in the trade are aware the NEC in and of itself is NOT a law passed by Congress or other legislators. However, once a local governing authority ADOPTS a certain version of the NEC it then has the weight and affect of law. Seems most populated areas of the country have adopted some version of the NEC (and Chicago has a code if I recall), while some more rural areas may not. Of course, some local "inspector" may or may not understand or interpret some section and therefore, may or may not require something. But hey if they sign off, you're good to go if you're happy, its NOT up to me to do their job. If non electrical trained non professional limited experience Billy Bob thinks he knows more then the NEC expert team authors, that's fine by me, its his or his kids and grandkids or his shop that's at risk, not me, do as anyone pleases.

SOOOOOOOOO please help us all out and cite any codes or authority that describes when and where and why a buildings electrical service doesn't need or shouldn't use a local Grounding Electrode. I just cant envision why a typical outbuilding or shop or garage or home WOULD NOT have its electrical service grounded!!! Yes Billy Bob, I'm aware of a sub panels isolated and insulated Neutral and Ground bond.

NOTE Im talking about grounded AC systems here, not any DC or any ungrounded system.

Usually electrical topics draw the most opinions and interest, while I'm looking for specifics and some code or authority or educated scholarship as to why a buildings electrical service would NOT have a grounding electrode??? I'm just not aware of any so maybe we will all learn from this, I sure hope so.

God Bless all here and thanks for inputs (Profession and lay alike) which I certainly appreciate.

John T Too long retired n rusty EE who still loves to learn
Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgAVE4UwFw&list=WL&index=82

I have not watched it all but will when I get the time it got my interest...
 
(quoted from post at 22:58:12 11/11/14)
(quoted from post at 18:05:27 11/10/14) Down below some of the good gents spoke of something to the effect of having or NOTTTTT having a ground rod when they ran an electrical service say for example out to a pole barn or shop or detached garage etc. etc. Although I'm rusty as an old nail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgAVE4UwFw&list=WL&index=82

I have not watched it all but will when I get the time it got my interest...
Click to expand...

Every Bubba and Billy-Bob should watch this. They may not learn much but they should get a clue about how little they know.
Click to expand...
 
(quoted from post at 11:17:24 11/12/14)
(quoted from post at 22:58:12 11/11/14)
(quoted from post at 18:05:27 11/10/14) Down below some of the good gents spoke of something to the effect of having or NOTTTTT having a ground rod when they ran an electrical service say for example out to a pole barn or shop or detached garage etc. etc. Although I'm rusty as an old nail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgAVE4UwFw&list=WL&index=82

I have not watched it all but will when I get the time it got my interest...
Click to expand...

Every Bubba and Billy-Bob should watch this. They may not learn much but they should get a clue about how little they know.
Click to expand...
eezz, seems like Mike made a good case for "just skip the 'useless' 25 Ohm ground rod altogether"! :?:
Click to expand...
 
Yep I can see how a person may think that lol Mike is one of the finest out there in my opinion. I attended some NEC seminars by Joe McPartland (prob dead by now???) but Mike probably has him beat. That earth grounding of the Neutral Grounded Conductor (at Transformer and again at main) has to do with lightning and surges plus tying the grid to one common low voltage reference (mother earth), while the Safety Equipment GroundING conductor has to do with preventing electrocution. I'm sure you know that, but posted for the benefit of some electrically challenged gents here.

Take care

John T
 
(quoted from post at 19:57:18 11/12/14) Yep I can see how a person may think that lol Mike is one of the finest out there in my opinion. I attended some NEC seminars by Joe McPartland (prob dead by now???) but Mike probably has him beat. That earth grounding of the Neutral Grounded Conductor (at Transformer and again at main) has to do with lightning and surges plus tying the grid to one common low voltage reference (mother earth), while the Safety Equipment GroundING conductor has to do with preventing electrocution. I'm sure you know that, but posted for the benefit of some electrically challenged gents here.

Take care

John T
Click to expand...
:)
 
Wow! I'm Impressed, 175 posts since I asked on November 8th about "No Ground Rod" at sub panel in garage 110 feet from main panel.

What I got out of all this is;

1- Do as the Inspector wants NEC or not.
2- Install an additional ground rod at sub panel after Inspector guy signs off.
 


Code or no code, inspector or no inspector. Union electrician or non union electrician. How about just doing the job right? There have been a lot of examples here about people not knowing what they should know.

Separate all neutrals and grounds after the location where the service neutral is held to near earth potential via the grounding system.
Every breaker/fuse panel needs it's own local ground rods.
All panel grounds, grounds connected from one electrical panel to another electrical panel, water pipes, gas pipes, cattle stalls etc should be bonded together .
Remote receptacles way the heck out in a field for a tank warmer etc. They should have a ground rod at the receptacle connected to the ground wire in the supply cable going back to the breaker panel.
GFI on the receptacle with a 24/7 LED light.
 
Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
 
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
 
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...
ow about those "article" numbers in the NEC that show the differentiation in grounding for metal buildings vs non-metal buildings?
 
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...

What is good for a new building is good for an old building. Why do you insist on the older substandard regulations. I'm suspect of anybody saying that the NEC did not spec a ground rod at any outbuildings supplied with more than a single 120 V receptacle.
 
(quoted from post at 22:15:11 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...

What is good for a new building is good for an old building. Why do you insist on the older substandard regulations. I'm suspect of anybody saying that the NEC did not spec a ground rod at any outbuildings supplied with more than a single 120 V receptacle.
Click to expand...

Umm my workshop has only nails and electrical wires as metals in it's construction. How do I bond it to my ground?
Of course all my ground wires are tied together and run back to the main service entrance panel on a dedicated ground wire. This meets all current electrical codes.
 
(quoted from post at 08:38:08 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 22:15:11 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...

What is good for a new building is good for an old building. Why do you insist on the older substandard regulations. I'm suspect of anybody saying that the NEC did not spec a ground rod at any outbuildings supplied with more than a single 120 V receptacle.
Click to expand...

Umm my workshop has only nails and electrical wires as metals in it's construction. How do I bond it to my ground?
Of course all my ground wires are tied together and run back to the main service entrance panel on a dedicated ground wire. This meets all current electrical codes.
Click to expand...

How about those "article" numbers in the NEC that show the differentiation in ground rod requirement for metal buildings vs non-metal buildings????????????? "Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and .....". Thereby indicating that no ground rod is required if not a metal building, thus making your wood bldg code compliant.
If you can't back it up with a hard reference, then it is not true.
Please quote article number references for those"separate" NEC rules so that we may all read and be better informed.
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:17 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 08:38:08 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 22:15:11 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...

What is good for a new building is good for an old building. Why do you insist on the older substandard regulations. I'm suspect of anybody saying that the NEC did not spec a ground rod at any outbuildings supplied with more than a single 120 V receptacle.
Click to expand...

Umm my workshop has only nails and electrical wires as metals in it's construction. How do I bond it to my ground?
Of course all my ground wires are tied together and run back to the main service entrance panel on a dedicated ground wire. This meets all current electrical codes.
Click to expand...

How about those "article" numbers in the NEC that show the differentiation in ground rod requirement for metal buildings vs non-metal buildings????????????? "Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and .....". Thereby indicating that no ground rod is required if not a metal building, thus making your wood bldg code compliant.
If you can't back it up with a hard reference, then it is not true.
Please quote article number references for those"separate" NEC rules so that we may all read and be better informed.
Click to expand...

Tell me again why you demand minimum spec instead of a couple of ground rods and a length of wire?
What are you saving? Or do you just want to have a p1ssing match ?
 
I guess you are talking to IH244, because I'm sure not supporting no ground rod! I'm questioning him for a hard reference.........which I don't expect to see!
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:17 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 08:38:08 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 22:15:11 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...

What is good for a new building is good for an old building. Why do you insist on the older substandard regulations. I'm suspect of anybody saying that the NEC did not spec a ground rod at any outbuildings supplied with more than a single 120 V receptacle.
Click to expand...

Umm my workshop has only nails and electrical wires as metals in it's construction. How do I bond it to my ground?
Of course all my ground wires are tied together and run back to the main service entrance panel on a dedicated ground wire. This meets all current electrical codes.
Click to expand...

How about those "article" numbers in the NEC that show the differentiation in ground rod requirement for metal buildings vs non-metal buildings????????????? "Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and .....". Thereby indicating that no ground rod is required if not a metal building, thus making your wood bldg code compliant.
If you can't back it up with a hard reference, then it is not true.
Please quote article number references for those"separate" NEC rules so that we may all read and be better informed.
Click to expand...

What an easy way to diss something you do not want to believe.
Why should I care what you think?
I am correct you are not simple as that :)
 
(quoted from post at 00:21:25 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:16:17 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 08:38:08 11/17/14)
(quoted from post at 22:15:11 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 21:26:52 11/16/14)
(quoted from post at 11:07:23 11/16/14) Well..................duh yes of course. That is why the ground rods or buried ground plate at every service . Then bond everything together.
Are you guys bucking and blocking the grounding and bonding because it's somebody else's idea other than your own?
Or you do not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ?
If the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
Click to expand...

My point is that the nEC does not require an earth ground rod at the sub panel at the remote building. Just that the neutral and ground are kept seperate untill they get back to the master ground buss in the main service entrance panel.
And yes all grounds must be bonded in the outbuilding to the main ground coming from the main service entrance panel. Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and the metal framework is required to be connected to the earth ground.
PERIOD!
Click to expand...

What is good for a new building is good for an old building. Why do you insist on the older substandard regulations. I'm suspect of anybody saying that the NEC did not spec a ground rod at any outbuildings supplied with more than a single 120 V receptacle.
Click to expand...

Umm my workshop has only nails and electrical wires as metals in it's construction. How do I bond it to my ground?
Of course all my ground wires are tied together and run back to the main service entrance panel on a dedicated ground wire. This meets all current electrical codes.
Click to expand...

How about those "article" numbers in the NEC that show the differentiation in ground rod requirement for metal buildings vs non-metal buildings????????????? "Now if you have a metal building that is a new ballgame and falls under seperate NEC rules and a ground rod is required for the outbuilding and .....". Thereby indicating that no ground rod is required if not a metal building, thus making your wood bldg code compliant.
If you can't back it up with a hard reference, then it is not true.
Please quote article number references for those"separate" NEC rules so that we may all read and be better informed.
Click to expand...

What an easy way to diss something you do not want to believe.
Why should I care what you think?
I am correct you are not simple as that :)
Click to expand...
ey, Bud, if you can't back it up it is BS & you are they guy trying to escape responsibility for what you say. I'm really surprised that you re-appeared, as usually you are the type that just go silent when you are cornered in an unsupportable position. Just quote the 'articles' of NEC that support your position. Can't can you?
 
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
 
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
 
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
 
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
 
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
 
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).
 
(quoted from post at 18:54:24 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).
Click to expand...
...and, just exactly what does that have to do with required ground rod or not???? More clutter/obfuscation, I suppose?
 
(quoted from post at 19:06:08 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 18:54:24 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).
Click to expand...
...and, just exactly what does that have to do with required ground rod or not???? More clutter/obfuscation, I suppose?
Click to expand...

You do know what a grounding electrode is?
 
(quoted from post at 22:02:12 11/22/14)
(quoted from post at 19:06:08 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 18:54:24 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).
Click to expand...
...and, just exactly what does that have to do with required ground rod or not???? More clutter/obfuscation, I suppose?
Click to expand...

You do know what a grounding electrode is?
Click to expand...
ow! I must say that you sure are having a lot of trouble with this topic for someone pretending to know something about it! Look at the drawing that I posted for you...there are two examples of grounding electrodes shown and both are clearly labeled. Sheesh!!
 
(quoted from post at 02:15:39 11/23/14)
(quoted from post at 22:02:12 11/22/14)
(quoted from post at 19:06:08 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 18:54:24 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).
Click to expand...
...and, just exactly what does that have to do with required ground rod or not???? More clutter/obfuscation, I suppose?
Click to expand...

You do know what a grounding electrode is?
Click to expand...
ow! I must say that you sure are having a lot of trouble with this topic for someone pretending to know something about it! Look at the drawing that I posted for you...there are two examples of grounding electrodes shown and both are clearly labeled. Sheesh!!
Click to expand...

Well one of us is having difficulty.
 
(quoted from post at 09:08:04 11/23/14)
(quoted from post at 02:15:39 11/23/14)
(quoted from post at 22:02:12 11/22/14)
(quoted from post at 19:06:08 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 18:54:24 11/20/14)
(quoted from post at 20:11:52 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 19:46:46 11/19/14)
(quoted from post at 14:14:24 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 14:03:11 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 11:08:29 11/18/14)
(quoted from post at 10:31:21 11/18/14)
You too darned lazy to google it?
Click to expand...
H! I have read it! Maybe you should, too....might actually learn something. No need to Google, JohnT posted pertinent parts of 250-32 in another thread.
http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=7194927&highlight=#7194927

and if that isn't enough & you don't have a copy of the NEC, then you can pull up the whole NEC on the NFPA web site.

If you want to be NEC compliant, you need the local ground at your shop (driven rod or buried plate, pipes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Wrong unless it is a metal building. Now a commercial building is different and does require a ground rod at the building.
Click to expand...
a! Didn't read 250-32 did you? Only wrong in your obstinate, obtuse head, but required by 250-32 NEC. Going to have to open that mind up a bit in order to learn.
Click to expand...

Ok Tell me how do you ground bond to a building built of wood with asphalt shingles on it?
Click to expand...
bfuscation is what I would call that! The question all along has been the use or not of a remote building driven ground rod(s) or other suitable local grounds such as water pipes, buried plate, etc. You are likely not THAT obtuse or lacking in reading comprehension, but just in case, maybe an illustration to go with the words would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Q3: Can I use the grounded conductor run with the feeder to a separate building as the ground-fault return path?

Answer:

See 250.32(B). An equipment grounding conductor must be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s). There are two exceptions to this requirement. Exception No. 1 recognizes installations made in compliance with previous editions of the NEC that permitted such connection. The grounded conductor run with the feeder to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).
Click to expand...
...and, just exactly what does that have to do with required ground rod or not???? More clutter/obfuscation, I suppose?
Click to expand...

You do know what a grounding electrode is?
Click to expand...
ow! I must say that you sure are having a lot of trouble with this topic for someone pretending to know something about it! Look at the drawing that I posted for you...there are two examples of grounding electrodes shown and both are clearly labeled. Sheesh!!
Click to expand...

Well one of us is having difficulty.
Click to expand...
have done just about everything that seems possible to try to help you & am not sure what more is possible.
 
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