AC branch panel grounds (again)

JDemaris

Well-known Member
Recent discussion about the necessity of a separate ground system at a remote building. Here's one done recently that passed 2011 NEC inspection with no local ground system. As allowed by NEC including the 2014 that MI just switched to last week - no local ground system needed with a single branch circuit like this. In this case - very similar to what the recent poster was asking about. 200 amp main panel at the house with a twin-electrode system. Garage 125 feet away has a 50 amp branch-panel. Unbonded neutral bar and the grounding runs back to the ground at the main house panel.

Also some mention about new panels having, or not having ground bars separate from the neutral bars? I just bought four. None had ground bars. All were optional and cost extra.
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Thoughts of a novice;

I was thinking about all this today as I was working around my grain system. The main service panel is on a grain bin. It feeds three sub panels- house, barns, grain leg panel. All three wire- no four wire. Ground rods everywhere. (Single phase)
How can there be too many grounds? Seems to me like the more, the better.
 
(quoted from post at 20:01:07 11/13/14) Recent discussion about the necessity of a separate ground system at a remote building. Here's one done recently that passed 2011 NEC inspection with no local ground system. As allowed by NEC including the 2014 that MI just switched to last week - no local ground system needed with a single branch circuit like this. In this case - very similar to what the recent poster was asking about. 200 amp main panel at the house with a twin-electrode system. Garage 125 feet away has a 50 amp branch-panel. Unbonded neutral bar and the grounding runs back to the ground at the main house panel.

Also some mention about new panels having, or not having ground bars separate from the neutral bars? I just bought four. None had ground bars. All were optional and cost extra.
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ou might be right & I might be wrong, but..........I do not think that meets the definition of "an outbuilding served by a single branch circuit".
 
Depends on brand and sometimes if the panel is main breaker or main lug only on whether or not it comes with separate ground bar. Since you are limited to 6 switches in one location for a main disconnecting means, then a main lug only panel with more than 8 spaces typically is considered a sub panel by manufacturers. Not going to argue that it passed, however even inspectors are human and can miss things. Or it could be local jurisdiction ruling. In a local city there is an inspector that thinks that when the code says that a conduit covered by 2" or more concrete is considered outside the building, that means you need 2" of concrete covering the conduit and then you pour the 4" thick basement floor over it. Everywhere else I have been they consider the floor concrete the 2" thick covering. Another case in another city is that they will not pass a ground rod that is driven within 30" of the foundation wall with the belief that the ground under the roof overhang is too dry to provide adequate grounding. Everyone interprets the code different.
 
1) I have no argument or problem, a person is free to do as he pleases, its his life or his kids or grandkids or building that's at risk NOT mine.

2) If local codes or local authority or some inspector say a method is okay and approves it, that's good enough for them or the consumer, no argument here

HOWEVER THAT IN NO WAY MEANS IT THE BEST,,,,,,,, OR THE SAFEST (for sure),,,,,,,, OR EVEN THAT ITS CORRECT,,,,,,,,,,,,OR THAT THE NEC ADVISES IT.

Based on my education, training, and experience as an AC Power Distribution Engineer and my reading of the NEC Section cited below, I ALWAYS SPECIFIED ANY BUILDINGS ELECTRICAL SERVICE BE CONNECTED TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE AND WOULD DO THAT UNLESS AND UNTIL THE NEC CHANGES OR MY ENGINEERING KNOWLEDGE CONVINCES ME IT SAFER NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTT TO DO SO.

However, yall feel free to do as you please, no argument from me, its your life at risk not mine, but based on my engineering knowledge and education and experience, I just happen to agree with the NEC (even if some jurisdiction or some inspector in some State doesnt) and if I engineer a job or install a service at a building you can bet your life IT WILL BE CONNECTED TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE

If anyone wants to do it different, if anyone thinks for whatever reason its safer NOT to use a ground rod etc., that's fine no problem with me ITS YOUR CHOICE, but in my trained experienced PROFESSIONAL opinion, its its safer to use a ground rod and comply with the NEC experts advice.


National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50

Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode


Fun post, thanks to all, hope this helps, feel free to not ground if you like..

God Bless n yall keep safe now

John T Long retired Electrical Engineer and rusty on latest codes so no warranty
 
Good to have pictures for this simplier mind.
I'm wanting to do this the safest way, not the easiest. I realize the safest (& easiest) way is to hire a licensed pro to do it however that's not in the budget. It's taken me 2 yrs to get this far.
Taking much suggested/recommended advice I went and got a seperate buss bar to install yesterday. I do have a few more questions but will wait till that part of this project is about to go forward.
I was smart enough to know I needed cable clamp connectors to secure the wire going thru the box.
I will be locating a current NEC book and reading it as well.
Hopefully all your knowlegable input is helpful to more than just me in regards to safety.

Again Thank You,
Norm
 
Yes, John, and if like me, may remain 'rusty' as the new code books are $100+ , where I paid $16.95 for the old one.
 
Not sure how that applies here. I guess I'm
missing the point. The panel I showed was not done
by me. It was done by a licensed electrician who
had no reason to skimp on anything. It adhered to
the 2011 NEC code, he did it and the inspector
passed it. Whether it's what someone else prefers
or not is a different story.
 
With the panel I posted - there is nothing "less safe" or "more safe" about it. It is just one legal NEC allowed version of a 50 amp branch panel. The way it was done would not have been my choice but my issue is the low amps. I'm going to rip it all out and install a 100 amp panel. The installation you see in the photos was done at a high-end expensive new house where nobody was trying to cut corners. The homeowner told the electrician that all was needed for power in the remote building was for lights. Thus the small service.
 
(quoted from post at 14:38:59 11/14/14) With the panel I posted - there is nothing "less safe" or "more safe" about it. It is just one legal NEC allowed version of a 50 amp branch panel. The way it was done would not have been my choice but my issue is the low amps. I'm going to rip it all out and install a 100 amp panel. The installation you see in the photos was done at a high-end expensive new house where nobody was trying to cut corners. The homeowner told the electrician that all was needed for power in the remote building was for lights. Thus the small service.
ounds to me like that inspector didn't even read the NEC definition of a branch circuit. That panel is not fed by a single branch circuit!
 
One thing I forgot, Thanks JD for the fun post, great pictures of how things were done in your jurisdiction by the electricians and inspectors in your locale: The only additional comment I would offer, with all due respect (I'm here to help not fight, maybe prevent a tragedy) is as follows.

In my professional engineering opinion, based on my education and experience as an Electrical AC Distribution Design Engineer, I think an ACCURATE statement regarding the electrical service to your building as shown in the picture and you described it (assuming there's no connection from it to a Grounding Electrode!!!!) is:


1) ITS CERTAINLY NOT NEC APPROVED provided the NEC section cited below is still valid, not been changed, and has been adopted in your jurisdiction. BUT HEY, your jurisdiction may NOT have adopted the NEC version from which the cite below was taken!!!! I have no idea of that


HOWEVER ITS A MORE ACCURATE STATEMENT THAT


2) IT WAS INSTALLED BY AN ELECTRICIAN AND APPROVED BY A LOCAL INSPECTOR


NOTE: Just because a local electrician and some local inspector installed and signed off on a service to your building, DOES NOTTTTTTTTTT MEAN IT COMPLIES WITH THE NEC OR IS NEC APPROVED (if adopted), IT ONLY MEANS SOME ELECTRICIAN AND SOME INSPECTOR THOUGHT IT DID OR WERE JUST WRONG OR DIDNT CARE. I like to err on the side of safety, and would trust the NEC experts advice (and connect to a grounding electrode) then the advice of your local inspector who didn't comply with the NEC section cited below and require your electrical service be connected to a grounding electrode.

Additionally it doesn't matter if one person does it or prefers a different method of an installation. If one person does NOT want his electrical service connected to a Grounding Electrode or another person insists his service IS connected to a Grounding Electrode, THAT DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT THE PANEL OF NEC EXPERTS SUGGEST OR WHAT THE NEC REQUIRES IF ITS BEEN ADOPTED BY YOUR AUTHORITY

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50

Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode

If this NEC section applies in your Jurisdiction and if your electrical service is NOT connected to a Grounding Electrode, your service (even if inspector approved) DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE NEC SECTION ABOVE and it doesn't matter if some inspector approved it or I or you like it or not lol.


SUMMARY Thanks to JD, his help and posting the pics, and all who took part in this fun discussion and for all inputs. Sorry for "preaching" but as an Electrical Engineer I understand why (even if the non electrical trained or electrically challenged or Billy Bob lol doesn't) connection of a buildings electrical service to a Grounding Electrode is NEC required. (unless it has been changed and is adopted). ALSO I just choose to err on the side of SAFETY, it could save a life, I fail to understand why a person would NOT connect his service to a Grounding Electrode (as NEC experts advise) BUT THATS YOUR FREE CHOICE AND FEEL FREE TO REMOVE IT IF YOU HAVE ONE OR NOT INSTALL ONE LIKE ON JD'S SERVICE, IM NOT HERE TO STOP YOU only to maybe save a life if its done the safer way.

God Bless you JD for your help and all here, keep yourself and your family electrically safe, err on the side of safety if in any doubt, remove your ground rods if you like or refuse one at the installation, but I choose and prefer to use one since I know it to be safer BUT THAT DONT MEAN ITS RIGHT OR THAT YOU SHOULD, do as you like..

John T, An old conservative and safety minded Electrical Engineer
 
JMOR, For sure, the inspector DID NOT follow this NEC Section since it indeed requires a buildings service IS TO BE CONNECTED TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE. There's just no getting around the section below, its not confusing, if its within the NEC in JD's jurisdiction and was adopted, its pretty easy to see his service should be connected to a Grounding Electrode and that's true even if his inspector got it wrong lol

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50

Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode

Fun chat yall, thanks to all, keep safe now, I advice you should NOT run out and tear out all those ground rods just because JD's inspector got it wrong lol

John T
 
This proves one thing, NEC code isn't really universal. The local building inspector is the person who has to pass your inspection. And what works for your area may not work in other areas of the country. This is obvious by all the recommendations posted here.
Bottom line you only have to ask one person, your building inspector, period.
 
To be fair and in defense of how JD's inspector may not have missed it quite so bad:

NEC 250-24(a) (unless changed, no warranty, looked at old book and in a hurry) list an exception to a Grounding Electrode FOR A SINGLE BRANCH CIRCUIT

HOWEVER I see TWO Branch Circuits in the picture!! Maybe there was only one when the inspector signed off??? Maybe he signed off for the permissible single branch circuit exception but later a second was added???????

Maybe the inspector was innocent lol

God Bless all

John T
 
The 50 amp branch panel IS hooked to a twin electrode system. At the house where the main 200 amp entrance panel is.
 
I still want to know where this "single branch circuit" is???

"no local ground system needed with a single branch circuit like this. "
 
I don't have a copy of a later NEC, but I think the confusion is in the definition of 'premise'. I have always equated that to building. But, I think I'm wrong. Looking at a lot of info on the 'net, it seems that, in the code referenced it can actually refer to a multi-building situation.


If that's true, then the 4 wire mandate makes a lot more sense to me. The earth ground is for lightning protection, not to provide a path for fault current. The 4th wire to the panel provides a path to clear faults, with or without the earth ground.

Anyone want to look up 'premise' definition in a recent NEC and report back???
 
Thanks for the info JD, of course what you call twin electrode system is probably good back at the main service entrance. The NEC advises bonding to ALL READILY AVAILABLE ELECTRODES that would includes metallic gas and water pipes, building structural foundation steel, and if none are available, you can use a "made" electrode such as driven into the earth ground rods. In many jurisdictions two such rods are required and that probably suffices.

Of course, any premises (I have called it a building, my bad lol) electrical service requires connection to a Grounding Electrode per the NEC cited below,,, and since the picture you show DOES NOT FALL WITHIN THE SINGLE BRANCH CIRCUIT EXCEPTION,,, and since its an electrical service to a building/premises, THE NEC ADVISES CONNECTION TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE. And if your inspector missed that YOURE NOT A BAD PERSON but that's does NOT mean just because he signed off it complies with the NEC, because unless the cite below has changed, it obviously DOES NOT and his messing up does not change that....

If I were you Id have a talk with that dude lol and see why the below does not apply??? to your premises electrical service HMMMMMMMM

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50
Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode

Thanks again JD, get after that inspector is my advice and if the code has changed and connection to a grounding electrode is NOT required at a premises electrical service PLEASE PLEASE ADVISE AND ENLIGHTEN ALL OF US, WERE HERE TO LEARN AND HELP EACH OTHER AND MAYBE PREVENT A TRAGEDY

Hope this helps, thanks again JD and everyone

John T
 
Thanks Ken, My book is olddddddd and rusty, I also have equated a building to a premise??? Im here to learn and help and maybe prevent a tragedy and as I always state IM RUSTY AS AN OLD NAIL on latest codes and always say NO WARRANTY LOL. If a building IS NOT a premises grounding electrodes may NOT be required per the NEC????

Best wishes and God Bless


THANKS AGAIN

John T never too old to learn
 
NEC premises wiring: interior, exterior wiring for power, lighting, control, signal, together with all associated hardware, fittings, devices, which extends from load end of service drop, to the outlets.

Ken, Premises definition isn't the answer here. Branch circuit definition is the answer!
Branch Circuit: The circuit conductors between the FINAL over current device protecting the circuit & the outlet(s).

In the pictures,shown, either the panel has two branch circuits, as JohnT said and thus does not qualify for the 250- exception for a single branch circuit or they are calling the 'feeder' from the service entrance eqmt to the pictured panel a 'single branch circuit', which clearly it is not, as it is not a conductor fitting, "... between the FINAL over current device protecting the circuit & the outlet(s).
".

So, it passed some joker's inspection, but it is not NEC.
If no red tag, go for it!
 
I think the definition of premise is an issue in this discussion. The sub panel can be considered just a circuit from the premise main panel.
 
(quoted from post at 20:38:48 11/14/14) I think the definition of premise is an issue in this discussion. The sub panel can be considered just a circuit from the premise main panel.
"circuit alright", but not a "branch circuit". see above
 
EXCELLENT EXCELLENT I have considered a separate outbuilding as a PREMISES. If a separate outbuilding IS NOT A PREMISES it may or may not require connection to a Grounding Electrode????? The NEC states:


A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode

SOOOOOOOO can anyone provide us with an NEC Citation a separate remote outbuilding is NOT a premises????? Maybe it is?? Maybe not??? Darn if I know

LOVE this sparky chat and never too old to learn.

A BIG THANKS IH

John T
 
Good info JMOR, thanks for hanging with us and helping. The EXCEPTION to my NEC cite above where connection to a Grounding Electrode IS NOT REQUIRED (otherwise it is) only apples if there's but A SINGLE BRANCH CIRCUIT.

This is getting deep lol but I still enjoy it

God Bless

John T
 
(quoted from post at 20:01:07 11/13/14) Recent discussion about the necessity of a separate ground system at a remote building.

A ground plate buried at the shed as deep as your backhoe will go and connected to the ground bar.
Keeps everything on a similar potential ground plane.
 
May have passed inspection but looks likes a sloppy job to me. We would never get away with that much sheating (spelling) inside the panel hear.
 
"A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode"

What happens if there is NO metal water pipe (in MY case the well head & casing is 20 ft away and at least 4-5' underground), and unable to bury a plate electrode (no backhoe)?
Is this when 2 or maybe even 3 8' copper clad steel grounding rods would be called for? What about 10' black or galvenized pipe? In MY case to drive a 8' rod took a 12lb post maul.
 
I don't know what your ground is like but where my place is in central NY - there's lots of rock. When installing two 8 foot rods - I usually dig a hole with a backhoe as deep as I can get and then drive the rod with a big hammer. Even then I hit a rock, have to pull out and find a new spot. Metal drilled well casings are great IF you have one. Here now in Michigan most well cases seem to be plastic. But we also have sand and driving 8 foot rods is easy without any hole digging.
 
Good question, easy answer. If there's no other readily available Grounding Electrode, you can use whats called a "MADE ELECTRODE" such as a driven into the earth rod or rods.

That's what the NEC advised when and where I practiced and in addition it then required we bond to EVERY READILY AVAILABLE ELECTRODE. Again then if no water or gas pipes or building structural or foundation steel was available, we used MADE ELECTRODES.

Great question, many ARE interested in learning this stuff. Im rusty on the codes but try and help when I can but remember NO WARRANTY

John T
 
I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to insult the electrician who wired JD's building lol. We had some quality professional electricians at our shop and when they wired a panel it looked like a work of art UNLIKE the pictures posted. But hey nobody (sure includes me) is perfect and that includes electricians and inspectors.

John T
 
Two rods are allowed in most places. Key issue is how dry your dirt is deep down and IF the inspector knows it. An electrical inspector can do a resistance test between the rods and the earth and if there's too much resistance - he can fail it and require more. That's rare though. Certainly no problem here in northern Michigan. I hit water two feet down.
 
A PS to provide more specifics I forgot to mention below which may help answer your question:

In our jurisdiction where there were no other readily available grounding electrodes and we had to resort to a "MADE ELECRTRODE" we started with a single driven into the earth rod, then it was tested, if it passed the minimum resistance, WE WERE DONE. HOWEVER if it didn't pass we drove a second rod BUT THEN WE WERENT REQUIRED TO DRIVE ANYMORE REGARDLESS. TWO WAS ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED

Remember that was years ago and in our jurisdiction where the latest NEC had been adopted at that time, IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE TODAY OR IN YOUR JURISDICTION NOOOOOOOO WARRANTY

John T
 
LOL Central NY here also. Rocks? How about a property next door was used as a stone quarry. Thus the need for a BIGGER hammer. Was LOTS of fun sticking 150+ wooden fence posts in (NOT LOLing)
 
The reality is - it is up to the individual inspector. He/she has the right to make rules more strict then as worded in whatever version of the NEC is being used. Inspector has the power to interpret and apply to an individual situation.
 
Just my opinion. But some of this is kind of silly. I'm talking about a separate ground system at a remote building versus using the ground system at the house main entrance panel. Either way works fine if wired correctly. Adequate path to ground is the issue. Any ground connection can be done wrong or cut - regardless if 10 feet distant or 125 feet distant.
 
Use anything you want &/or anything that you can get approved, but my point is that many of these threads are here just about forever, and to prevent future readers from being misinformed, I think it is good to not leave the wrong impression that such an arrangement meets the NEC requirements, even though someone made it work & got it past an inspector. That feeder from the main panel to the outbuilding is NOT a branch circuit. It has one or more over current devices beyond it, thus by NEC definition, is NOT a Branch circuit. A branch circuit is the last in a series chain which has no further over current devices beyond it....only the load.
Do anything you little pea-picking heart desires, but don't claim it is NEC. Have a nice day! :)
 
jdemaris,
I think it's way past kinda of silly. It really depends upon your definition of what is is I guess.

Like I said before right or wrong, you have to pass inspection, so the inspector is the man who is right.

I ran into the same issue. A union electrician wired my pole barn, passed. So both the union, professionals, and the inspector say what your inspector said, "only one grounding rod". Yet different areas my have other requirements.

It's all your fault for mentioning GROUND.

You should know better from now on.
Much to do about nothing.
George
 
(quoted from post at 13:46:53 11/15/14) jdemaris,
I think it's way past kinda of silly. It really depends upon your definition of what is is I guess.

Like I said before right or wrong, you have to pass inspection, so the inspector is the man who is right.

I ran into the same issue. A union electrician wired my pole barn, passed. So both the union, professionals, and the inspector say what your inspector said, "only one grounding rod". Yet different areas my have other requirements.

It's all your fault for mentioning GROUND.

You should know better from now on.
Much to do about nothing.
George
That is the same thing I said, George........"Use anything you want &/or anything that you can get approved,........". It just does not make it NEC.
I can, today take you to a house in a city of over 200,000 pop where the inspector approved a telephone wire in the same conduit as out building power,AND not only that, the telephone wire enters into the service entrance panel in order to get into that conduit. Now, just because he approved this mess, does it make it NEC? Of course not!
Silly is ignoring the obvious & putting up a barrier to learning.
 
"The reality is - it is up to the individual inspector"

EXACTLY, RIGHT ON, your right JD

Of course, that certainly does NOT mean its in accordance with the NEC, it ONLY means a certain electrician or a certain inspector has installed it or signed off. It may be right per the NEC and it may be wrong per the NEC, but I have to agree with you,

""""it is up to the individual inspector""""

Fun chat even if some consider it silly, if it helps save a life or educate someone, I sure don't consider such silly or a waste whatsoever.

God Bless you, keep safe and best wishes.

John T
 
Good afternoon neighbor George, how are things up north of me???

You state "I think it's way past kinda of silly. It really depends upon your definition of what is is I guess"

With all due respect, I don't consider it silly if something can help save a persons life or helps educate them. But that's just how I was raised and my opinion, if we can help a person here or prevent a tragedy I think its all worth the effort.

Hope we can meet next year at a Tractor Show, sorry I missed you and Wilson the last time, I was too darn busy lol

Take care and keep warm George

Your Hoosier Neighbor

John T
 
Wow! I'm Impressed, 175 posts since I asked on November 8th about "No Ground Rod" at sub panel in garage 110 feet from main panel.

What I got out of all this is;

1- Do as the Inspector wants NEC or not.
2- Install an additional ground rod at sub panel after Inspector guy signs off.
 
JohnT and Jessie,
All due respect to both. My union electrician has a commercial license. My inspector didn't over look anything. I even asked him if a second rod was needed, NO!

It's easy to call my inspector stupid and electrician stupid. I'm too old to do my own wiring anymore so I hire the stupid union guy to do my work. I figure if anyone is ever electrocuted, which they have not, the company he works for will be sued.
I'm not changing work the inspector and union guy has done.
I have 12 properties, ALL HAVE PASSED INSPECTION, ALL HAVE JUST ONE ROD. 2 of my properties have a second box 150 ft from house. NO second rod in Vigo.
Yes, it got cold in TH, windy too. May be we will meet up at Elnora.
George
 
Same here, George, with all due respect. I have no beef with you, your electrician, or inspector or their installation. My objection was/is with JDemaris claiming it was NEC compliant. Simple as that. As I said more than once, "."Use anything you want &/or anything that you can get approved,........". It just does not make it NEC compliant. " Clearly, it does not always have to be NEC compliant!
 
Hey George, I wont call them stupid, maybe just "electrically challenged" lol All in all though, most of the ones I worked with, and that was a bunch, were very professional and well informed on the latest and safest codes and practices. As far as the NEC however, Ive attended Seminars, talked to and had lunch with some of the finest experts in the business who were also NEC board members, PLUS I've know a lot of inspectors (some engineers, many not) and Im sure I don't have to tell you which knew more about electricity!!!!!!!!!!!

I have seen countless electrical service installations in different jurisdictions, some had one ground rod, some had two, some none, but there were plenty of other approved electrodes available and used in that situation. I've never seen a service however in any building that wasn't connected to some sort of a grounding electrode (rod or otherwise). I sure wouldn't advise anyone to go rip out their ground rods or disconnect them just because some inspector said they weren't required in his opinion in that jurisdiction!!!

Fun talkin to ya neighbor, keep safe now ya hear.

John T
 
Hey there Tom, its all your fault lol lol

Told people many times, If an Electrical or a Legal question is asked, it draws the most responses. Everyone and their brother in law, me included, and Billy Bob and Bubba crawl out from under the woodwork with opinions and stories and all are experts and some are probably right while others may be dead wrong. Regardless, its good to try and help folks and try and educate and maybe keep someone from getting hurt or killed, and I don't consider that as a waste.


You say "1- Do as the Inspector wants NEC or not."

OTHERWISE you wont get the electricity turned on lol !!!!!

Take care Tom, glad you learned something

John T
 
(quoted from post at 20:01:07 11/13/14) Recent discussion about the necessity of a separate ground system at a remote building. Here's one done recently that passed 2011 NEC inspection with no local ground system. As allowed by NEC including the 2014 None had ground bars. All were optional and cost extra.

Code or no code, inspector or no inspector. Union electrician or non union electrician. How about just doing the job right? There have been a lot of examples here about people not knowing what they should know.

Separate all neutrals and grounds after the location where the service neutral is held to near earth potential via the grounding system.
Every breaker/fuse panel needs it's own local ground rods.
All panel grounds, grounds connected from one electrical panel to another electrical panel, water pipes, gas pipes, cattle stalls etc should be bonded together .
Remote receptacles way the heck out in a field for a tank warmer etc. They should have a ground rod at the receptacle connected to the ground wire in the supply cable going back to the breaker panel.
GFI on the receptacle with a 24/7 LED light.
 

John T they are connected to a ground rod thru the ground wire back to the main service entrance master ground buss.
 
(quoted from post at 23:09:13 11/15/14)
John T they are connected to a ground rod thru the ground wire back to the main service entrance master ground buss.
Do you not want to foot the $10,000 bill and wait the four weeks to drive a couple of ground rods ? To have a proper ground plain or do you just not understand electricity and don't perceive the need?
Are you another one of these people who think if the lights go on at the flick of a switch without anybody being shocked. Or the equipment doesn't immediately explode into a sparking ball of flame then the wiring is fine? maybe you ought to speak with to the Fire Marshal and insurance company inspectors.
 
Likewise, there's a ground rod out on the pole transformer connected to the Neutral and the Neutral wire from the utility is connected to the Ground Buss in the main panel, yet they (NEC) still want ANOTHER ground rod at the panel geeeeee whizzz.

EVERYWHERE I PRACTICED (different jurisdiction) a ground rod (or other electrode) was required and used AT EVERY ELECTRICAL SERVICE ENTRANCE, be it a home or shop or garage or barn or outbuilding and maybe the code has since changed, but Ive yet to find nor can anyone cite an NEC provision saying its NOT required

Im willing to learn and see if the NEC has changed, Im NOT here to argue and would love to see when and why it was changed so a ground rod (or other electrode) is NOT requited at any building.

THANKS YOU FOR YOUR HELP AND INPUTS, I appreciate it since I love to learn something new, but prefer to err on the side of safety in the meantime and would NOT rip out any ground rod at a barn or shop or garage in the meantime even if some inspector somewhere ruled it was his opinion it was NOT required....

250-32. Two or More Buildings or Structures Supplied from a Common Service

(a) Grounding Electrode. Where two or more buildings or structures are supplied from a common ac service by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), the grounding electrode(s) required in Part C of this article at each building or structure shall be connected in the manner specified in (b) or (c). Where there are no existing grounding electrodes, the grounding electrode(s) required in Part C of this article shall be installed.

Branch Circuit: The circuit conductors between the FINAL over current device protecting the circuit & the outlet(s).

National Electrical Code, NEC Article 250-50 Premise’s Electrical Service

A premise’s electrical service shall be connected to a grounding electrode system consisting of a metal underground water pipe in direct contact with earth for 10 feet or more, if available on the premises, and a supplemental electrode (a rod, pipe, or plate electrode.) An additional electrode shall supplement the buried water pipe electrode


THANKS AGAIN IH, I like your inputs and help and with all due respect disagree, as I think a grounding electrode should be connected to any buildings service BUT IVE OFTEN BEEN WRONG GRRRRRRRR and willing to learn

God Bless you and all here

John T Long retired so may be wrong grrrrrrrrrr
 

The utility is trying to drag their primary's neutral down closer to true earth potential with all those ground rods.
As we have tried to explain before no bonding to earth the white insulated working current carrying conductor . Just elevates the ground system voltage due to VD on the current carrying conductors. This makes even a higher voltage for poor old Bossy to stick her nose into at the water basin.
I am not a fan of the bond the utility runs between their primary's neutral and the customer's secondary neutral. Of course in residential and even most industrial nobody is going to notice a elevated ground voltage.
Except around electronics, swimming pools and livestock.
Ideally the utility would not run a neutral down the road but at least two lines of the three phase supply...........but. Now surges from electrical strikes and solar flares would become even a greater problem.
 

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