Correct gas for chain saw

JerryS

Well-known Member
I have a Stihl MS441 Magnum chain saw, about 70 cc's. I haven't used it for several years, but now I need to. The manual tells me to use 93 octane gas. I prefer to use non-ethanol fuel in my small engines, but I haven't been able to find 93 octane alcohol-free gas, just 87 octane. How important is it to use the 93? Is there an additive that would bring the 87 up to acceptability? Or should I just use the 93 octane with ethanol?
 
First off, that "93 octane" is Research Octane Number (RON), which is how pumps are marked in Europe and most of the rest of the world. Here in the US and Canada we use the "Anti-Knock Index", which is the average of the RON and Motor Octane Number (MON). 93 RON works out to about 89 AKI, so your saw will be fine with midgrade fuel and probably even OK with regular. I run premium gas just the same, since the extra cost on a gallon a gas isn't worth taking a chance. (Of course, most pumps will have a quart of regular gas in the hose anyway.)

But all this is moot, since you're not going to be able to find ethanol-free gasoline unless you go to the airport and buy avgas. Not premium, mid-grade or regular. It doesn't exist. Just accept the fact that your fuel is going to have ethanol in it and move on.
 
(quoted from post at 10:21:19 10/17/14) First off, that "93 octane" is Research Octane Number (RON), which is how pumps are marked in Europe and most of the rest of the world. Here in the US and Canada we use the "Anti-Knock Index", which is the average of the RON and Motor Octane Number (MON). 93 RON works out to about 89 AKI, so your saw will be fine with midgrade fuel and probably even OK with regular. I run premium gas just the same, since the extra cost on a gallon a gas isn't worth taking a chance. (Of course, most pumps will have a quart of regular gas in the hose anyway.)

But all this is moot, since you're not going to be able to find ethanol-free gasoline unless you go to the airport and buy avgas. Not premium, mid-grade or regular. It doesn't exist. Just accept the fact that your fuel is going to have ethanol in it and move on.


You are mistaken about the ability to purchase non-ethanol fuel. Around her there are several places where you can purchase it, although it is only available as 87 octane. This is what I use in all of my small engines.
 
I run ethanol free regular fuel in my Stihls.
I add Stabil,and an octane booster with the Stihl
Ultra oil.Unless you run hundreds of hours each year on the saw it is worth the extra money to
give it good fuel and more important if you use
it every day.E-bay is slam full of blown up saws,
most likely caused by bad gasoline.JAinVa
 
Have you tested it? Sorry, but slapping an ethanol-free label on a pump has no effect on the contents of the station's tanks. Many states do not require pump labeling at all, and I'm not aware of any states that routinely test for ethanol content. The only way to be sure is to test every purchase yourself. It's a lot simpler to accept the inevitable fact that you're buying gasahol regardless of what the pump says and go from there.
 
That is ridiculous. Many stations in Upstate NY carry non ethanol 91. They charge about 40 cents per gallon more but it is readily available.
To assert that prominent fuel distributers would falsely advertise and sell a contaminated product is ludicrous.
Red Apple
Hess
Fast Trac are just 3 chains that come to mind that carry it.
 
My Stihl owner's manual say to use mid-grade 89 octane or unleaded "high-test." No mention of a 93 octane requirement. Sthil manual # 0458-219-8621A for the MS 441.
 
Going back to what you said, you can't believe what's on the pump. I read the fine print on the pump, E85 may not be E85. Pump said minimum of E70.

EPA mandates formulated fuels for most of the US, like it or not, move on.

I wish I had kept the post where someone had a good article about mixed 2 cycle fuel. How fast they go bad, the amount of oil determines the amount of oxygen as well as the octane rating. The ethanol absorbs moisture in air, causing fuel to grow a bacteria.

Some people like to ride the ethanol horse to death. The people who make chainsaws need to figure out how to make carbs that can handle ethanol.

I don't see ethanol as the great evil. I use it to prevent dieseling in the summer. So far so good. I'll be the first one to say that ethanol damaged my engines, when or if it happens.
George
 
mark, from the new york state weights and measures website:

Petroleum Quality Programs

To assure conformance with performance and labeling standards, weights and measures officials conduct random inspections of gasoline and diesel fuel at distribution terminals and at retail gas stations.
 
My MS440 gets 89 with 10% ethanol. I do not believe in the hype about how ethanol destroys everything it touches. It is a bit more expensive to buy 89 but that is what the manual calls for and I do not mind. I mix the oil a little thicker than 50-1, the Stihl oil bottle says it will treat 2.5 gallons but I use it for 2 gallons, this was on the advice of a local saw shop with a good reputation, where I bought it.
Zach
 
I always use premium gasoline in 2 cycle premix engines.

When taking my small can to the station for filling, I first pump a gallon or so into the car to remove all of the 87 octane from the hose.

Dean
 
Yes, I can get 87 octane ethanol-free at the little independent country station I've been buying gas from for many years. I know the owner well and he's not pulling my leg about it. He has one tank devoted to nothing but ethanol-free, and he promotes the fact pretty heavily. We have a refinery in town, so I figure that's how he's able to get the ethanol-free stuff.
 
Could be.

Have you seen anyone perform such tests?

Have you tested the fuel yourself?

Dean
 
I can't get ethanol free gasoline, well anywhere close and I'm not about to make a special trip for it. I use the 93 octane, with ethanol, for years now, in a MS 390. I do treat that gasoline with Startron. I use Stihl oil in the fuel, precisely with both the oil and the fuel, I flush the little bottle to get all the oil out and make sure the fuel is just below the 1 gallon mark.

I just completely disassembled this saw and re-assembled it. Somewhere in the last 4 years I did replace its original fuel line, which did crack in several places. As I was putting the saw back together, I checked all the rubber parts thoroughly, held up to the sun, checked for holes, cracks etc., nothing, so I reused all except the fuel line, replaced that, but the one I took out was fine, saved it as a spare. So it seems the fuel I use does not seem to create any problems in that span of time, the saw does sit for periods of time, no issues if it does, always fires up, before the tear down, it sat since May, 4 months later it fired up as if it was used the day before.

I realize that the fuel storage containers, can suck in at times, and you may get moisture from the air, not sure how that works with ethanol, being alcohol, it traps it ??? So maybe there is something to treating the fuel and using a quality airtight container? Stihl offers some kind of alleged non spill container that is rumored to perform very well. You have the metal safety can manufacturers like eagle and the other one, just something to consider.

The one thing that stood out when I looked the engine over with this saw was that it was well lubed, I could see no significant wear on the cylinder wall or piston. I've had it since '02, intermittent use throughout the year, more use spring and fall for firewood, part of the reason little to no appreciable wear, that and the fuel mixture I use, had to play role in that.

It does start easily the 2 pulls on full choke, fires, then click the lever up, one pull and its running.

The only issue with this saw and I still cannot figure out what causes it, having taken it completely apart is that it shuts off once in awhile, seems fuel related, as I've feathered or pumped the trigger throttle to keep it going, which sometimes worked. Earlier this week, was felling an elm, made the face cut, stalled, so I set it down, waited, friend stopped by actually, happened to be in the neighborhood walked down to where I was working, in a little while, it fired right up and ran fine, ethanol/moisture ??? It has me baffled, I thought well maybe it the coil and plug wire, the end connector is a stab in type, and I actually pulled that apart and reset that end on the wire to make sure it had good contact. Appears to be fuel related, but at this point I have no idea, otherwise the saw does run great and gets the work done most importantly.
 
I have Echo,Husky and Stihl saws ranging from 1.7 HP to 6 HP and use the same mix in all of them ( Opti-2 with premium gasoline which has some ethanol in it). I also use one of two stabilizers for the ethanol that will hold fuel for way over three years. I also do like Dean and pump gas into truck first and then fill my chainsaw can. I use the ethanol stabilizer in all my two and four stroke engines around the place.
 
I've never devoted any time or effort in buying or using small engine fuel. Lawn mowers get the same cheap crap from the station down the road as my car. No problems yet. (Although I do run out the fuel in the fall and start with fresh in the spring)
 
I have an old Stihl 029 saw that my father owned (he passed in 1999), and that saw has ran 87 Octane ethanol blend as long as I have owned it, and have not done anything to that saw other than replace bar and chain, and routine sharpening. It even has the fuel filter on it that was on when I acquired the saw in 1999 so I suspect it may need replacing. The issue I have seen is with the trimmers with the yellow looking "tygon" fuel lines becoming brittle and having to be replaced fairly often. Usually when I purchase some of that line I try to buy extra and keep some around, especially since I live about an hour from everywhere. When you live in a very rural area and the only retail businesses in the area is a Dollar General and Caseys (beer/soda/pizza/ethanol blend gas), you learn to keep certain items around. While I do not agree with the reasoning for going to the ethanol blend (fuel competes with food source), I do not believe that it has caused nearly the issues some would lead you to believe, unless it sits for long periods of time.
 
I used this web site to find 93 ethanol free. Just click on your state and scroll down a little and it'll list stations and what octane they carry. You may have one close by that you didn't know was there.
http://pure gas.org/
 
I just checked the list. Closest station to me is 120 miles round trip!

The best thing you can do for your saw is put stabil in the fuel when you mix it with the oil. When your done using the saw. Drain the gas out and let it run till the carb is empty.

If you do both things I mentioned. Good chance it will start the next time you want to use your saw.

If you leave fuel in a chain saw. You just as well plan on a new carb the next time you want to use it.
 
Just me, but I would use 93 octane with ethonal before I used 87 octane in a saw that called for 93. The only time I have ever had a problem with alcohol in fuel is when I store a small engine with straight gas for a long time period. In my experience, the corrosive effects of alcohol on carb metal and parts is pretty much negated with pre-mixed fuel. This opinion is probably worth exactly what you are paying for it.
 
The majority of the blowen chainsaws on Ebay is not the fault of bad gas but human fault. Most cases somebody forgot oil in gas or mixed to thin (not enough oil)and last but not least people playing with carb. adjustments and really don't know what their doing.
 
Go to Stihls site and read what Stihls techs have to say. You can run ethanol but not more than 10% and you do not run aviation gasoline.
 
The 93 octane used to be what we old folks called regular gas. Hi test / Premium was 100 octane and up.

My old Stihl called for the same as yours - regular gas. I use the regular and the premium non ethanol in mine. To be honest I've never noticed a difference in the way it runs but I do switch between the two depending on what mood I'm in.
 
FWIW ?
We have always used regular 87 octane (cheapest we find) that seems to say 10% ethanol here in Ohio.
We also have used Stihl oil mix too.50:1 mix in all our Stihl brands and even other brands. Has worked fine for us for many many years now.
 
Fine print on the Stihl oil bottle sez it contains fuel stabilizer. I've never had carb problems with my Stihl equipment, and I've NEVER ran the carb dry at shutoff. I use whatever fuel is at the local pump. Don't know the octane or ethanol content, and don't care. Our local fuel WILL go bad real quick if you don't add StaBil, but I quit using StaBil in my saw gas after reading the Stihl oil label.
 
I have a twenty year old Stihl 029. It has never given any sort of fuel-related trouble. I've made no special care to use ethanol-free fuel. But what I DO do is to only mix one gallon at a time, then keep it in a sealed container. If I have any question about the fuel, it goes in the tractor. The worst thing you can do is to store gasoline in a vented container. Whether or not it's ethanol-free, evaporation ruins gasoline.
 
Local Madison, Wisconsin are there are a few stations with no ethanol. For main stores the Citgo and Kwik Trips have non ethanol premium available in 91 octane, sometimes a 93 octane. Kwik Trip premium pumps have a tag on them that says 'Recreational Fuel recommended for ATVs, chainsaws,2 stroke motorcycles, off road use'--sort of looks like a legal disclaimer for 'not for road use'- but pump it into your car/truck at own risk, we've notified you as law says about road fuel and not for road use. And my old Goldwing needs it for the fuel pump as no ethanol certified replacement available- had to replace with a OEM type last year and just be cautious about fuel now. Iowa Caseys near older brother has Ethanol only, larger Casey's near sister with 2 on more tanks have non ethanol 87 octane and a 89 midgrade with ethanol for couple cents cheaper- tax break on the ethanol. Local small engine shops recommend the non ethanol gas, some of older engines really picky about it, a few of newer ones still minor problems. A slightly older Brigges engine has a diaphragm suseptable to ethanol, couple Kohlers on some equipment have a fuel line minor issue, a few plastic floats still around that can get ethanol/water logged and upset mixtures after setting 'wet'. Some of newest makes and models will run ethanol OK, maker is figuring that is what will be used and for some markets the law requires it- so no problems for the customer who spends the money. Problem in some of newest is the maker is Chinese or European and their local fuel doesn't have Ethanol, the US market with ethanol is not critical and the design will run for warrantee period with ethanol- SO, the cheaper model is sold in the main market big box stores and when it has failed the year after warrantee expires the customer gets 10% off a new one (that has a 60% markup). Walbro(?) replacement carbs for some models and is ethanol use friendly, Mikuni has a couple models also for some engines including a couple old Tecumsehs used on Snow Kings. Run carb dry before storage drill seems to work on many engines, the Stabil and Seafoam help for some storage. The Amish just chuckle about fuel issues- the secondary engine on some of their equipment locally tends to be a small diesel with compressed air starter. RN
 
DEAN I used to run a fuel and oil business. Here in the state of Iowa it is a large fine to put something out the end of the nozzle that is not labeled on the pump. YES IT WAS TESTED. I used to blend ethanol with unleaded gas before it was available at the pump, my farm customers wanted it. I had to save samples of gas/mix for the people to test. Was involved in testing, both lab and road testing, if the stuff did not meet the specs, it was reblended to add more gas or more eth to bring it into spec. This was in the early 1970's up to the mid 1980's.
 
This is what I run in my 2 cycle equipment, not cheap, but I only use a gallon or two of fuel a year, so it suits me just fine. I have seen too many high compression 2 cycle engine destoyed from pre-detonation using low octane fuel.

http://www.vp-sef.com/
 
Dean was right . If you go to a station that the pumps dispenses three differant octanes of gasoline out of the same hose there will be gas in the hose of the octane that the previous person had bought.
 
If I couldn't find ethanol free I'd do the same. When good professional saws cost $500-$1000 I intend to do what I can to make them last. Ethanol will run 2 stroke engines ok. But if you get more than 10% it's risky. I remember reading last year about some gas having more ethanol in it than was stated at the pump and the way they found it was because chain saws in that area were locking up or scoring bad. Gas was tested and traced back to the pump.

Here's an article I saved a while back.
Separating the facts from fiction
 
My new Dolmar 510 calls for 91 octane. I use Amsoil Interceptor oil at around 45:1 ratio and I also add a little Ethanol Shield and pump at least 1/2 a gallon into my truck to make sure the hose is carrying only 91 octane. The saw runs great!
 
(quoted from post at 20:59:18 10/17/14) Dean was right . If you go to a station that the pumps dispenses three differant octanes of gasoline out of the same hose there will be gas in the hose of the octane that the previous person had bought.

The way I see it is that we are at the gas company's mercy. Sure they check octane and alcohol content occasionally, but how often. We have NO GUARENTEE what we are getting.
I can only assume that I am buying non-ethanol gas and I wouldn't worry about the small amount of ethanol that is in the hose when purchasing 5 gallons.
However, the station I buy gas from has three different grades and three separate hoses.
I might also mention that Sta-Bil makes an ethanol removal product, but I have no idea if it works.
 
I run fresh 91 or 94 ocatane gas in the two strokes during the primary season.
At end of season they get a tank of two of 100LL to flush the ethanol out for storage.
 
No one listed this. Go to your rental store or mower place and pick up a quart can of ready mix gas. $5.oo and it is a premix of 50 or 40 to one. Take your choice. I would use the 40/1 mix. Fire companys carry these cans UN opened in their emergency vehicles. Open the can and pour it in. Everything starts right up. When you are done you run the saw till it is empty of gas. BINGO! easy as pie.
 
(quoted from post at 13:07:33 10/17/14) Have you tested it? Sorry, but slapping an ethanol-free label on a pump has no effect on the contents of the station's tanks. Many states do not require pump labeling at all, and I'm not aware of any states that routinely test for ethanol content. The only way to be sure is to test every purchase yourself. It's a lot simpler to accept the inevitable fact that you're buying gasahol regardless of what the pump says and go from there.


No I have not. But have you tested to prove it's not ethanol free? Newly remodeled store with all new pumps and tanks installed at the time. I do not see a problem nor do I see a need to test the fuel.
 
Yeah, easy and a waste of money. If I had to use canned gas and paid $12 a gallon - I might as well quit heating with wood. My saws all start "easy as pie" and all I've ever used is the cheapest gas from the pumps. Also cheap oil mixed at 20 to 1 instead of good oil at 50 to 1. Also waste oil for bar oil - usually old Shell Rotella 15W-40. I've been cutting wood for near 50 years and no problems that relate to bad gas or oil.
 
NO it does not. I have the same saw. It calls for 87 octane in US standards. That "91" you quote is a European ROZ rating (Research Oktan Zahl) . 91 ROZ equals 87 (R+M)/2 in the USA.
 
What # manual are you seeing a 93 octane requirement in US standards for your Sthil? I have the factory manual for my MS441 and it says no such thing. Are you confusing the European octane rating with the USA rating?
 
I have the Dolmar 51 cc and 64 cc. in Makita blue.
DCS510 and DCS6401. Both factory manuals call for gas with up to 10% alcohol and a European octane rating of 91 ROZ. That is the same as 87 octane in the USA.
 
(quoted from post at 11:09:02 10/19/14) You might be able to find a place that sells E0 here.
E0 gas stations

Tom

Thanks , excellent info. No wonder we haven't had two stroke fuel problems. The fuel has been 91 octane from Crappy Tire, Esso or Shell. Happily ethanol free.
I had wondered why there was a mileage increase in the vehicles when burning 91 octane instead of 87 octane with ethanol.
 
(quoted from post at 01:26:52 10/18/14) No one listed this. Go to your rental store or mower place and pick up a quart can of ready mix gas. $5.oo and it is a premix of 50 or 40 to one. Take your choice. I would use the 40/1 mix. Fire companys carry these cans UN opened in their emergency vehicles. Open the can and pour it in. Everything starts right up. When you are done you run the saw till it is empty of gas. BINGO! easy as pie.

$20.00 a gallon and some of us go through 50 gallons or more a year through our 2 strokes. Fire companies seldom worry about the cost of things, just raise taxes. not gonna happen on the farm.
 
(quoted from post at 07:36:21 10/20/14)
(quoted from post at 01:26:52 10/18/14) No one listed this. Go to your rental store or mower place and pick up a quart can of ready mix gas. $5.oo and it is a premix of 50 or 40 to one. Take your choice. I would use the 40/1 mix. Fire companys carry these cans UN opened in their emergency vehicles. Open the can and pour it in. Everything starts right up. When you are done you run the saw till it is empty of gas. BINGO! easy as pie.

$20.00 a gallon and some of us go through 50 gallons or more a year through our 2 strokes. Fire companies seldom worry about the cost of things, just raise taxes. not gonna happen on the farm.

How much does a new saw cost, how much does it cost to service a saw and how much is your lost time worth ?
50 gallons of gasoline through a saw per year? Rare does anyone except a professional logger run more than one gallon of gasoline through a saw a day. Fire wood cutting season may consist of 5-7 days to cut 15-20 cord.
 
[b:958a445de7]How much does a new saw cost, how much does it cost to service a saw and how much is your lost time worth ?
50 gallons of gasoline through a saw per year? Rare does anyone except a professional logger run more than one gallon of gasoline through a saw a day. Fire wood cutting season may consist of 5-7 days to cut 15-20 cord.[/b:958a445de7]

I am a simple homeowner and I would guess that I use more then 50 gallon of mixed gasoline per year.
I have three chainsaws, two back leaf blowers, one hand held blower, a water pump, generator, self propelled lawn mower and small garden tiller.
No I won't use anywhere close to 50 gal. in my saws, but combined---Yes.
I never buy a pre mixed product at that price!
I have run two cycle items for over 50 years and never had a problem, using my own mix.
Who is to say you are getting what is printed on the can, or any thing for that matter?
 
(quoted from post at 15:55:45 10/20/14) [b:7e27314d20]How much does a new saw cost, how much does it cost to service a saw and how much is your lost time worth ?
50 gallons of gasoline through a saw per year? Rare does anyone except a professional logger run more than one gallon of gasoline through a saw a day. Fire wood cutting season may consist of 5-7 days to cut 15-20 cord.[/b:7e27314d20]

I am a simple homeowner and I would guess that I use more then 50 gallon of mixed gasoline per year.
I have three chainsaws, two back leaf blowers, one hand held blower, a water pump, generator, self propelled lawn mower and small garden tiller.
No I won't use anywhere close to 50 gal. in my saws, but combined---Yes.
I never buy a pre mixed product at that price!
I have run two cycle items for over 50 years and never had a problem, using my own mix.
Who is to say you are getting what is printed on the can, or any thing for that matter?

The water pump, generator, lawn mower and garden tiller run on two stroke gas mix ?
 
[b:729363f89a]The water pump, generator, lawn mower and garden tiller run on two stroke gas mix ?[/b:729363f89a]

Have you ever heard of a 2 cycle Lawn boy Lawnmower?
I also have a Stihl Brush Cutter and an Echo string trimmer!
Yes I like two strokes or at least I thought they required gas/oil mixture--- LOL
 
I can't say I use them all a lot but I've got
several of each with two-stroke-cycle engines.
The original machine to carry the name
"Rototiller" is two-stroke. I have two of them.
As to lawn mowers? I have several push mowers
with Power Products or Jacobsen two-stroke-
cycle engines. Generators? I have two portable
electric gensets with two-stroke-cycle engines.
One is a fairly new Coleman inverter gen-set
rated at 900 watts. Water pump? I used my
Homelite two-stroke-cycle "Water-bug" water
pump today while working on a well.
 
I would tend to disagree with you on that statement... Fire companies generally do tend to worry about the cost of things.. a LOT. While I'm not advocating buying gasoline in that manner... I can understand the sentiment IF it provides them with absolute reliability. I can tell you that there's nothing worse than getting to a fire and needing a genset, saw or ventilation fan to run and it won't run because the main jet is gummed up with crap... and I've seen it happen... At that point the $20/gal gasoline looks pretty cheap when you only use a couple gallons per year.

Rod
 
Hello dean,

I have seen weights and measure run the test at the loading rack. Not only for octane compliance, quantity also. Rack distribution for tanker also have meters that are temperature compensated. Gas station pumps are not! all other stuff you heard is wife's tales.......

Guido.
 
(quoted from post at 14:50:51 10/20/14)
(quoted from post at 07:36:21 10/20/14)
(quoted from post at 01:26:52 10/18/14) No one listed this. Go to your rental store or mower place and pick up a quart can of ready mix gas. $5.oo and it is a premix of 50 or 40 to one. Take your choice. I would use the 40/1 mix. Fire companys carry these cans UN opened in their emergency vehicles. Open the can and pour it in. Everything starts right up. When you are done you run the saw till it is empty of gas. BINGO! easy as pie.

$20.00 a gallon and some of us go through 50 gallons or more a year through our 2 strokes. Fire companies seldom worry about the cost of things, just raise taxes. not gonna happen on the farm.

How much does a new saw cost, how much does it cost to service a saw and how much is your lost time worth ?
50 gallons of gasoline through a saw per year? Rare does anyone except a professional logger run more than one gallon of gasoline through a saw a day. Fire wood cutting season may consist of 5-7 days to cut 15-20 cord.

I cut a lot of wood and use a lot of other 2 stroke equipment. I don't have a lot of problems anymore unless I get a case of the stupids and don't take care of a saw right. I also run a lot of mix through saws I'm fixing for other people. 50 gals was a conservative estimate. 2 gallons a day is not unusual. There is no way I could swing buying at $20.00 a gallon, but if that works for you, go for it.
 
(quoted from post at 17:52:27 10/20/14)
(quoted from post at 15:55:45 10/20/14) [b:c3b4a06638]How much does a new saw cost, how much does it cost to service a saw and how much is your lost time worth ?
50 gallons of gasoline through a saw per year? Rare does anyone except a professional logger run more than one gallon of gasoline through a saw a day. Fire wood cutting season may consist of 5-7 days to cut 15-20 cord.[/b:c3b4a06638]

I am a simple homeowner and I would guess that I use more then 50 gallon of mixed gasoline per year.
I have three chainsaws, two back leaf blowers, one hand held blower, a water pump, generator, self propelled lawn mower and small garden tiller.
No I won't use anywhere close to 50 gal. in my saws, but combined---Yes.
I never buy a pre mixed product at that price!
I have run two cycle items for over 50 years and never had a problem, using my own mix.
Who is to say you are getting what is printed on the can, or any thing for that matter?

The water pump, generator, lawn mower and garden tiller run on two stroke gas mix ?

Yeah, lots of pumps, tillers (think Mantis) mowers (Lawn Boy) and small gens run 2 stroke.
 
(quoted from post at 23:01:40 10/20/14) I would tend to disagree with you on that statement... Fire companies generally do tend to worry about the cost of things.. a LOT. While I'm not advocating buying gasoline in that manner... I can understand the sentiment IF it provides them with absolute reliability. I can tell you that there's nothing worse than getting to a fire and needing a genset, saw or ventilation fan to run and it won't run because the main jet is gummed up with crap... and I've seen it happen... At that point the $20/gal gasoline looks pretty cheap when you only use a couple gallons per year.

Rod

I'm probably not the guy to about that Rod. We just had one of the 3 companies covering our area wanting close to 4% a year for 5 years. One of their complaints was outside lighting. Their 7 lights cost them over a $100.00 a year to run. I asked why they didn't just turn off some of the lights! THey also don't mention the new big screen tv, pool table, etc. And when asked what they could do about improving response time so they were doing more than hosing down a basement...well, that was apparently our fault for not living in town.
 
Yeah, about 4% a year is the increase we're scheduled to get here for the next 4-5 years. When you consider that we're already about 30% underfunded in terms of what it costs to keep things going...
There's no small screen TV here let alone a big screen.
Our worries are more related to the approximately $9000 it costs to outfit one man, the $265000 that a new truck will cost, $10000 annual insurance cost, etc. $100 for lights is pretty small potatoes considering that if someone trips and falls... and sues us... that 100 bucks doesn't buy much lawyer.

Response time is generally a function of how far one has to travel.... It generally takes us 20 min to get on scene; sometimes more. We're running a district that is nearly 20 miles in length with our station in the middle of it; 1/3 of that on dirt road. The rest of it on poor road.. so by the time someone drops what they're doing, gets to the station, gets dressed it's 10 min... then drive to wherever we're going... it can easily be 20 min. That is usually sufficient time to mount a useful attack IF it's 20 minutes out from time of origin. The ones we see burn into the basement are generally the ones... that 90% of the time... don't call until they figure out they can't put it out themselves... then they call the fire department as a LAST resort. Those become defensive fires from the outset... and quite honestly... when you get involved in a surround and drown... there's never enough resources to actually put that fire down. It has to burn down to a level that can be extinguished with the amount of water we can haul.
So yes, your distance from the station is critical. You might even find if you research it... that your insurance will give you a different rate classification depending on that distance, distance from hydrants or dry hydrants, etc. Normally you have to be within 5 miles of a station to qualify...

Rod
 
Yeah, we have the same problems with regulations causing us to have to have to treat our volunteers like professional big city fire men. IMO that's criminal on the part of the politicians and bureaucrats that forced that on us. They've made it so a small town like ours can't afford to protect itself. Our insurance is very high since we are "unprotected" and the fire companies have a hard time getting and keeping volunteers that have to devote huge amounts of their time to training and fund raising.

The day is coming when people are going to ignore the laws, buy and old fire truck and use it to protect themselves from fire and legislators.
 
The way I look at it.... the fire doesn't care if you get paid or if you volunteer. It'll burn you up all the same.... so as far as I'm concerned all firefighters need to train the same way. Really... a volunteer department needs to do MORE training because they don't get to see as much fire as someone on a career shift in a large metropolitan area. Training is the most meaningful thing you can do to improve skills and response times and it's one of the hardest things to get anyone to do in a small volunteer department. From where I sit... I think there's a lot of departments out there that are only doing their members a dis-service by even existing because they're placing people in harms way without proper training.
What does tend to bother me... is the UL(C) mandates for apparatus replacement at certain age limits. We're turning out some good trucks in this area that for the most part could easily have another 10 years of life in them yet with a bit of maintenance... Instead they get turned out the door, the new 250000 truck comes in, then we spend 5 years working our holes off to raise money to pay for it. If you don't replace the truck then you don't meet minimum requirements... then the insurance rating system downgrades the department... and insurance rates rise.
Living in a rural area doesn't always mean your rates are downgraded tho... In the past we've done Superior Water Shuttles that are validated by a UL(C) representative... and that improves our rating because we have a demonstrated ability to move water and maintain fire flow. Basically... we can maintain 250 gpm flow (two hand lines) for 2 hours duration, uninterrupted... within 5 min of arriving at the fire. You won't find many city departments that can do that without a hydrant... Our last outing, IIRC, we did something like 350 gpm. But these are the things we all need to train for and be prepared for... and a LOT of departments do not train as much as they should.

Rod
 
The training is fine to an extent. It's the constant fund drives, the bingo every week, the dinners and breakfasts and more bingo. Training is fine, decent equipment is fine. But when it makes it so you can't get people or afford to operate...whats the use then?
 
You either decide you want a fire department or you don't...
It's been my observation over the last couple of years that the people who don't want to do fundraising are the same ones who don't want to do training, don't want to come to meetings, don't show up on calls, etc... but they're at the front of the line in uniform with all their pins and bars when it comes time to receive a service medal at the installation..
So again.. I say, if you want a fire department, you do what it takes to maintain it and move forward. The rest is just excuses. Those that came before us had less, worked with less and still moved ahead. Nobody wants to work anymore is the real problem..

Rod
 
So the fact it costs literally millions to establish a fire company, volunteer, and that a town with a budget of $990K can't do that is right? It's right to make the regulation so stringent and expensive people can't afford to protect themselves? I guess we see things differently.
 
If you're not doing it right you're just wasting your time anyway. You might as well not engage in the charade.

Rod
 
Really? So all those decades we went through with training at the local level and good success rates didn't really happen? I was in our local FD in the late 70's early 80's. We didn't have $750K trucks, they didn't get replaced every 7 or 8 years, we didn't have to have fund raisers every day and the training, while rudimentary, worked. No one got hurt at a fire scene. It was affordable. Now it's all about who's got the newest stuff and the biggest trucks/firehouse. No thanks. It's far, far better to have older equipment and more guys with basic training so that you can actually get a truck on scene in 5 minutes rather than waiting 25 or 30 so the expensive truck and the 3 well trained guys can show up to hose down the basement,
 
I don't know where you're at.... but there aren't too many 750k trucks around here and they're certainly not replaced at 8 years of age... We're running commercial pumper/tankers that retail in the 200-275 range and we expect anywhere from 20-30 years of service from them depending on their condition and whether or not they can be cost effectively refurbished at 20 years of age. Otherwise they'll probably live out a 25 year life cycle and be parted.
In terms of training what I see now is that it's a battle to get people out to complete their level 1 training anymore. They just will NOT make the time commitment to do the training. When that's what you're dealing with... yeah, I think it's generally a complete waste of time and space to maintain a fire department with a group of people who are not serious enough about it to maintain their basic training for reasons of life safety. What I see, the more rural you get, the more cowboy things happen. Not that long ago someone in this area went to a structure fire... and as far as I know (because I wasn't on scene at the time)... did a bare face rescue. That's just stupid. One of these days the next crew in is going to be dragging him, his buddy and the actual victims out. There's just no need of that.
In terms of trucks again... it the UL(C) that mandates the age limitations on the trucks... which is why they get replaced often times even though they are still perfectly serviceable trucks. We have one in our station right now that aged out... we got funding for a new truck so we went ahead with it because we need it to maintain our rating... but the old truck is still there as a reserve unit, used for training and as a tanker on a big fire. For all it costs to keep it around it wasn't worth getting rid of it. I do think some of the requirements on trucks today are a bit foolish... but from what I see most of the cost is just attributed to inflation. We're still running very basic trucks here.
As far as any volunteer department putting a crew on scene in 5 min... that's crap. We might roll a truck in 5 min and that's a very tight timeline. A paid crew in the station could not put a truck on scene in most places in our district in 5 min. I think one of our best times was about 13 min from first page to on scene to go to the far end of our district which was about 8 miles from the station... and I got a lecture about how fast I was driving that day...
As far as I'm concerned the biggest bang you can get for time spent today is in training. It pays in response time, life safety and effectiveness in fire suppression.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 14:23:15 10/24/14) I don't know where you're at.... but there aren't too many 750k trucks around here and they're certainly not replaced at 8 years of age... We're running commercial pumper/tankers that retail in the 200-275 range and we expect anywhere from 20-30 years of service from them depending on their condition and whether or not they can be cost effectively refurbished at 20 years of age. Otherwise they'll probably live out a 25 year life cycle and be parted.
In terms of training what I see now is that it's a battle to get people out to complete their level 1 training anymore. They just will NOT make the time commitment to do the training. When that's what you're dealing with... yeah, I think it's generally a complete waste of time and space to maintain a fire department with a group of people who are not serious enough about it to maintain their basic training for reasons of life safety. What I see, the more rural you get, the more cowboy things happen. Not that long ago someone in this area went to a structure fire... and as far as I know (because I wasn't on scene at the time)... did a bare face rescue. That's just stupid. One of these days the next crew in is going to be dragging him, his buddy and the actual victims out. There's just no need of that.
In terms of trucks again... it the UL(C) that mandates the age limitations on the trucks... which is why they get replaced often times even though they are still perfectly serviceable trucks. We have one in our station right now that aged out... we got funding for a new truck so we went ahead with it because we need it to maintain our rating... but the old truck is still there as a reserve unit, used for training and as a tanker on a big fire. For all it costs to keep it around it wasn't worth getting rid of it. I do think some of the requirements on trucks today are a bit foolish... but from what I see most of the cost is just attributed to inflation. We're still running very basic trucks here.
As far as any volunteer department putting a crew on scene in 5 min... that's crap. We might roll a truck in 5 min and that's a very tight timeline. A paid crew in the station could not put a truck on scene in most places in our district in 5 min. I think one of our best times was about 13 min from first page to on scene to go to the far end of our district which was about 8 miles from the station... and I got a lecture about how fast I was driving that day...
As far as I'm concerned the biggest bang you can get for time spent today is in training. It pays in response time, life safety and effectiveness in fire suppression.

Rod

Northern NY and the fire trucks we're hearing about run from $300K on up to $750ish. 8-14 year life expectancy. The oldest rig around is an on old rescue van/bread truck looking thing thats 20 years old. I just heard the equipment listing from 2 of the 3 companies that serve our area and want big increases in their payments because they want/need new stuff. PP Equipment HAS to be replaced at 10 years age, even if it's only been worn at training and never been 100 feet from an actual fire. The cost is about $2500.00 a set because it's got to have that NFPA (or what ever the initials are) on it.

With the guys sitting at the fire house, which we all used to do a lot, we had lots of 5-10 minutes response times to fires in a few miles of the station. Where I am now they sit at the fire house and it still takes them 20-25 minutes to cover the 13 miles. If we had a small station with an attack type unit in town (2 miles away) I could drive down myself, get it and have the fire out before the super duper expensive units had hit the town line. But regulations and sheer cost prevent us from legally having a fire co out here. That's my beef Rod- the LAW prevents us from protecting ourselves. I don't know how Canada works, but here you could actually be arrested for trying to protect yourself from fire. Cool, eh?

In the end, I keep a 300 gallon tote in the back of a field truck with a pump and some hose. I have 30K gallons of water in the pool. Between the 2 I can hopefully knock down any small fires. There is a small group of us here considering putting a couple totes and some better pumps and hose on road worthy trucks, you know, for washing off equipment and stuff like that. If there was a fire and we just happened to be in the area I think the Good Samaritan Act would cover us if we put some water on the fire.

Pretty darn sad when you have to go to those extremes to avoid arrest for putting out a fire.
 
AS far as I know nothing here would prevent you from trying to protect your own property.... but if you go out advertising yourself as a fire company you expose yourself to a lot of liability, particularly from lawsuits from insurance companies... Where I could see an individual getting themselves in trouble is if they had a fire and didn't report it... and then lost a structure... their insurance provider is not going to be happy about that.

A full set of bunker gear will cost in the range of 2500. About 1600 for coat and pants, couple hundred for the boots, couple hundred for the helmet, mabey couple hundred more for gloves and nomex hood... 50-70 for good lighting... 550 for a pager... so yes, easily 2600 to fully outfit someone, plus about another 4500 for a new, modern SCBA..
I know what you're saying about the gear not being worn out... It's like everything else tho... the standards change and then they want to replace it. None of our gear meets the latest standard but it did meet NFPA 1971... in about 1986... I don't believe there's anything that specifically mandates older gear being replaced but that would depend on department protocol. The main difference is that newer bunker coats have a rescue strap in them... but that does not make the older coat any less effective for the purpose it was designed for...

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 11:07:35 10/25/14) AS far as I know nothing here would prevent you from trying to protect your own property.... but if you go out advertising yourself as a fire company you expose yourself to a lot of liability, particularly from lawsuits from insurance companies... Where I could see an individual getting themselves in trouble is if they had a fire and didn't report it... and then lost a structure... their insurance provider is not going to be happy about that.

A full set of bunker gear will cost in the range of 2500. About 1600 for coat and pants, couple hundred for the boots, couple hundred for the helmet, mabey couple hundred more for gloves and nomex hood... 50-70 for good lighting... 550 for a pager... so yes, easily 2600 to fully outfit someone, plus about another 4500 for a new, modern SCBA..
I know what you're saying about the gear not being worn out... It's like everything else tho... the standards change and then they want to replace it. None of our gear meets the latest standard but it did meet NFPA 1971... in about 1986... I don't believe there's anything that specifically mandates older gear being replaced but that would depend on department protocol. The main difference is that newer bunker coats have a rescue strap in them... but that does not make the older coat any less effective for the purpose it was designed for...

Rod

The new law here says you have to have the PPE replaced every 10 years so that the guys will be safe standing there at an accident scene or running a pumper. I guess. It seems to me to be a typical bureaucratic regulatory move that was probably suggested by the NFPA rep that is on the payroll to the PPE equipment manufacturers behind closed doors. Maybe it's all on the up and up and I'm just bitter because we can't provide a needed service at a reasonable cost. That's what I'm referring to when I say we could get arrested for trying to put a fire out. If we have an organized group that's there to fight fires we have to obey the law. They've made impossible for us to do.

Keep in mind I was a fireman and EMT and involved in EMS since I was 14 (Junior Ski Patrol, Life Guard and Ski Patrol followed by vol FD/EMS) and then spent over 20 years in LE including working 9/11 from 9/12 on. I get it, I understand the training, the PPE, etc. I also know that having a fire dept 25-30 minutes away while your house burns is kinda like having a cop on the phone while someone rapes your daughter in front of you because a law says you can't own a gun, or worse, you won't own one. Neither option is anything I'm comfortable with. No offense towards you or anyone else involved in fire/ems.
 
There is no NFPA requirement that the gear be replaced... they just update their standards from time to time. If you have a law to that effect... that would be local... or someone is interpreting something in a way they ought not do.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 18:56:02 10/25/14) There is no NFPA requirement that the gear be replaced... they just update their standards from time to time. If you have a law to that effect... that would be local... or someone is interpreting something in a way they ought not do.

Rod

As near as I can tell it is an OSHA regulation based on NFPA 1851 and re-enforced through NYS PESH. I doubt it would apply in Canada. Somehow, OSHA has decided volunteers are the same as professionals. If you do a search on NFPA 1851 and "retirement" there's a lot of info. There are numerous references to NFPA "mandate" that turn out gear be replaced 10 years after manufacture. Plus, there has been at least one Federal Court ruling here in the States forcing the retirement of apparatus more than 10 years old.
 

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