House fire and ammunition

Stan in Oly, WA

Well-known Member
If you were forced to run out of your house because it was on fire, and you had ammunition and/or reloading supplies in the house, would you warn fire fighters about it? Would it make a difference to you if you knew that having them stop trying to save the house because of the presence of dangerous materials would invalidate your homeowner's insurance? (This is purely hypothetical; I have no idea about the actual insurance consequences of this scenario.)

Stan
 

Good question. I live in a very rural area. It would be safe to assume that every house around here has firearms and ammunition stored inside. The local fire departments are pretty much all volunteer, made up of local folks who also presumably own firearms and ammunition, so I would assume that when the volunteer fire depts. respond to a rural house fire, they probably already know what all they would be encountering.

For what it's worth, several years ago a neighbors house DID burn. This particular fellow was red neck from the word go and had more ammo stored away than what most of us could even imagine, but none of it ever went off.
 
Yes. I am a fire fighter. I have been on the scene of a working house fire and heard ammunition going off. It really makes one think. We all backed up even further and stayed away from the area of the house. If it is at all possible to tell the fire fighters or at least the one in command that ammunition is in the house please do so. I really am not sure about insurance. I have heard insurance will not pay if the fire department does not make an attempt to save the house. Anyway if your warning could save a live what would it be worth?
 
the only ammunition to really worry about is the one in the chamber that'd go out the barrel of the gun if it were to go off in the fire. the rest may go off in ways to scare the heck outta ya but typically do not have the velocity to penetrate firefighting bunker gear and cause and bodily injury.
 
You are exactly right. Same thing in my area too. one thing about
ammunition going off by itself is the bullet and the case goes
different directions. This greatly reduces the velocity of the bullet.
Some ammunition going off is like LP gas tanks. There is always
danger involved.
 
Been there, done that. Not one single roumd of ammo cooked off. Had 300 primers in their original boxes. The plastic melted around the primers and only had half a dozen or so popped. Powder cans are designed to be weak so that if the powder ignites the cans rupture before hardley any pressure builds up. Had four cans of powder side by side. One can ruptured and you heard a muffled pop and a fizzing sound as the powder burned. The other three cans didn't ignite. Genuine black powder is more volatile than smokeless but again the can will rupture allowing the powder to burn off harmlessly. Don't know where you live, but around here pretty much everybody has a gun or two in the house. If you let the firemen know what area of the house they are in, they they will bust their butts to get water on that area and save as any of your guns and as much of your reloading stuff as possible.

The insurance senario you gave poses an interesting question. Don't have any idea.

I do know very few homeowners policies cover firearms unless you pay extra for a rider on the policy.
 
I think you're exactly right. The problem (always) is not what's true, but what people believe is true. I'm pretty sure that the mere mention of ammunition in a burning house would be more than enough to get the fire fighters to back off and enjoy being spectators for a change.

Like most people, I hope, I'd tell fire fighters about the presence of any dangerous items that weren't what would be in any house. (Would anyone remember to say something about the presence of 10 oz propane torch tanks in the shop in the garage?) But after the loss from the fire, my wife would probably divorce me. She's not crazy about some of my hobbies, anyway, and more of less keeps her opinion to herself as long as I don't do anything that causes a disaster. I think having to watch the house burn down uninsured because I chose to keep a few extra rounds in the basement would qualify.

Stan
 
Like Don, I've seen it close hand. Ammo, powder and primers stored in something other than a sealed container, like an ammo can, just sort of pop and fizzle. There is no explosion like on TV or the movies. Ammo stored in an ammo can doesn't exactly explode, but it does make a bigger whooshing sound when the seal ruptures. Black won't "explode" either unless it's contained enough for the pressure to build, like in a pipe bomb, but it does explode more than smokeless.

Considering the average home ahs at least a few propane tanks around and a whole slew of household chemicals that can cause problems, ammo would be down my list a ways.
 
Yup. Doesn't take much addition to add up what a firearms rider on your policy will cost to justify the cost of the most expensive safes. Had a freind with a bunch of expensive (and several irreplacible) guns. Tried for years to sell him a good safe. The value of the guns he lost was into five figures.
 
Immediately on their arrival. There is nothing on this farm worth the life or injury of one of our firemen. Let them make decisions based on their training. But let them know what theyvre up against. Have already had discussions with my fire cheif regarding this.
 
So if you were the one wearing the bunker gear... or one of your family... do you think you might want to know as much as possible what you were facing? I'm kind of astounded that you would even ask this question... that the value of your home is worth more to you than someone's life.
But since you asked, from the perspective of a chief officer... I would hope you would very quickly inform the IC of whatever hazards existed such as ammo, LP tanks, acetylene, etc. It might be information that would change their plan of attack such that they could drive the fire away from the danger area rather than into it, and thus might effect whether or not they save your house. Now if the structure has gone to the point where a defensive attack is all that is possible anyhow... I don't think it ought to matter much to you whether they wet the walls down as it burns itself out or sit back at a safe distance and let the ammo go off. Gone is still gone but at least nobody's dead.
I don't know for sure what range ammo will have... and that would depend on the caliber... but I have heard shells exploding in past fires... and yeah, we get the hell back. Bunker gear is designed to keep heat out, not bullets.

For what it's worth, I don't think any insurance company is going to fault ANY IC for ordering his crew back if he deemed the scene too dangerous to attack the fire. Protection of life is the foremost concern. How they would deal with you having improperly stored ammunition... I have no idea.

Rod
 
There are 4 digit placards that are used to clue in FF regarding hazardous materials. They would be posted in an obvious area so responders are aware of what is in the area. Not commonly used in houses, but there has been discussion in farm magazines regarding them....for example, IDing presence of chemical products. Part of the reluctance of farmers posting them is that thieves would be clued in as to their location.
 
So, let's see what the options are:

1. Warn the firefighters that are risking their lives to save your property. Let the professionals make the call on how they want to proceed and you aren't then liable if someone gets injured or killed. You then remove any hypothetical insurance issues and find out the hard way if you are "in good hands".

2. Keep the information to yourself. Risk killing the people who are dedicated to doing some of the most dangerous work there is. Take the chance that your silence takes the life of a man who likely has a family. You set yourself up for a wrongful death lawsuit that could destroy you and your family.

2a. The news media gets wind of all of this and you are called out as an insensitive person who's only focus is benefitting himself. This will only go on for so long but the firefighter is still dead and his children grow up without a father.
Still there is someone who benefits from all of this grief... the attorneys.

Me, I tell them what's in there and stand back. I thank them for their service even if we stand together and watch it burn to the ground.

Before that happens and you choose poorly, how about a fireproof safe for the ammo and powder? I bet your insurance guy would like that.
 
Average 3-4 structure a week (urban setting)probably discover firearms/ammo in about 1/2 of them. Handguns and shotguns prevalent. Have been startled many times in the last 23 yr, however my only major concern is the "one in the pipe" for obvious reasons- the others become a proximity issue. If we are informed and hear them starting to blow- we will focus our interior attack on adjacent affected area until ammo appears to be consumed.
If it gives the IC (Incident Commander) the heebie jeebies- then we may back out to a defensive posture.
If they not in the room that is actually burning (or directly above it)- no worries imho.
Information from the homeowner concerning hazards, occupants or structural issues concerning the property upon our arrival is much appreciated and allows us to manage risk/reward decisions.
 
99% of the time there is no problem other then a hotter fire where the powder is no bang etc it burns off and does not explode due to heat. Been watching to many T.V. show where it goes bang but in real life it does not happen. Like the car the catches fire and explodes due to gas tank big does no happen if real life
 
We had a house burn in 1978. We had moved from a 5 bedroom home into a 3 bedroom mobile home. We had the mobile home parked 25 feet from a new home that we were in the process of building. Since we had moved into such a smaller home there was a lot of stuff being stored in the new house while we were building it.
The new house caught on fire and while the firefighters were fighting the fire there were bullets popping. They made less of a noise than the bottles of fruit my mother had just finished canning. The house was all framed and plumbed we were just getting ready to do the electrical when it caught fire. since there was no sheet rock to slow the fire it didn't last very long but the whole time there was a firefighter spraying water on the mobile home so it didn't catch on fire.
There was also my sisters Toyota corolla in the garage. It never blew up like in the movies. The fuel tank filler neck had a section of rubber hose in it and after the hose burnt off it was like a blow torch. As the fuel vaporized from the heat it burned. there was also an underground fuel tank that had about 120 gallons of gas in it and it just burned as it came out of the vent tube.
I am not saying that it can't happen I'm just saying what happened then

Steven
 
About 25 years ago I was burning a brush pile and my cousins came over with a 12 pack of beer to watch the burn.
I was wearing a pair of coveralls I had worn for deer hunting and had 4 30 30 shells in the pocket.
I asked them if they would blow if I threw them into the fire. They said probably. Try it - not thinking I would. So I threw the shells in the fire in and you should have seen everyone scrambling for cover. LOL
They went off of course but since there is no barrel around them to focus the energy they just blew up like a fire cracker and the brass flew a few feet away.
The bullet, because it was heavier than the brass didn't even leave the fire.
The flying brass could put out an eye or cut your hand but no way was there enough kinetic energy to penetrate even a jacket.
My cousins still haven't stopped razzing me about that.
 
Myth busters did a similar experiment putting amo in an oven. Shell explodes and very little damage. The shell casing went backwards faster than the shell.

I know a lady who put a live shell in the fire place. It went off while she was bending over. Yep, you guessed it, got her in the backside. She laughed about the target size. Didn't hurt her.
 
....and the most important thing you should remember is that 'that is what happened THEN'. When you're dealing with a fire, anything can happen. I've seen fuel tanks cook off. I've also seen formidable explosions from them; not like in the movies... but enough you don't want to be too close. Also seen LP tanks launch 100 feet in the air.
The thing that worries me with ammo... is I don't know what it would do in any given situation and I don't intend to be the test dummy.

Rod
 
i'm not sure you will have any problem with properly stored reloading supplies.

lets see...

projectiles. those will .. maybee melt.

brass cases. melt or deform

primers... those will pop... uh.. no big deal..

jugs or kegs of smokeless powder in the original container you bought them in... will: melt the container when it gets hot enough... then burn the contents real bright for a few seconds... that's about it!


As mentioned. loaded ammo will pop and there will be short range shrapnel issues.. nothing should make it out of the house. your spray cans of case lube will be no different than spray cans of oven cleaner unde rthe sink, or spray cans of hair spray in the bathroom. a small, small flame ploom and pop when the can ruptures.

accelerants in the garage.. like maybee a can of paint thinner for house touch ups. same deal.. pop and burn .. fueling sourounding area.

things i'd be concerned about are pressurized gas cylinders.. like propane tanks and such.. or oxy or O/A bottles. those will be the danger...

not a brick of primers and a few pounds of smokeless and some deer rounds...

PS.. I don't see any of those automatically invalidating homeowners insurance unless they are specifically disclaimed.

remember.. smokeless powder is not classified as an explosive.. it's a deflagrant...

Black powder is an explosive..

black powder equivalents like pyrodex and such that are sold today to muzzel load are not explosives.
 
I've generally seen you as one of the thoughtful and well informed responders on this site, but in this case you seem to have willfully misunderstood my question for no other purpose that I can see than to allow yourself to scold me for asking it. I'm not in any way informed about the history of Canadian social movements, but the US has a long, embarrassing history of censorship and attempted censorship which is at least partly based on the belief that some issues are so harmful that they shouldn't even be discussed. I feel that my question has gererated some useful debate, and consideration of a situation that is not uncommon. For you to suggest that I would put my property above the well-being of any human being simply because I asked people to think about a situation is not only mistaken, but also mean-spirited of you.

Stan
 
In other words, if I asked whether someone should try to help a person being beaten by several thugs, you would assume that my question meant that I wouldn't? That strikes me as an assumption that serves no purpose except to allow you to seem to have the moral high ground.

Stan
 
Bob-MI;

Your scenarios are not a bit lurid, and don't let anyone tell you that they are. I think you forgot 2b. in which you adopt the firefighter's children and one of them goes on to become America's best president, ever.

Stan
 
I can just add thatmy wife has a friend she used to work with who is into gun smithing. He's got a much higher than average gun collection and has them in a room in the basement that's cinder block walls on all sides, steel door, and I think the top is even spancrete. (Hebought the house that way, but kinda perfect for him)

He was saying once he already has had talks with the local fire department that there is a large amount of ammo and other things in the house (apparantly they have a hot list of guys who are willing to share some info) so they know before they even get there that this house does in fact have a TON of ammo.

I had a techer when I was at the tech school, same deal. He liked stuff that went boom (a lot) and was even making a mortar on the boring bar in the shop. He said the same thing, and I think he lives in the same town.

Donovan from Wisconsin
 
I'm sorry you feel that way, but this is one of those questions... that if you've got to ask, god help you. The way I read your original post, it shows a complete lack of regard for the lives of those who are only there to help. Perhaps that's not how you really feel or would behave, and I hope not... but really, what part of that question really needs to be asked?

Rod
 
Several years ago, having to clean out my brother's house due to his illness, I took a couple cans of black powder that I was unsure of because of it's old age. Dumped it in a pile in the farm drive way. Did like the old cowboy flicks used to show, made a trail of it about 30 feet away and lit it with a match. Holy cow, it went off with a whoooom, and sent a black cloud drifting up over the grove. I expected a quick burn but totally uncontained as it was it really surprised me. Burned some smokeless powder also but that just fizzled. Cleaning out everything, a few apparently loaded rounds got into the burning barrel and made a pretty good bang.
 
Absolutly ,no doubt , I would tell the firefighters exactly any black powder or ammo. I have signs now stating the gas bottles. I don't know if my towm requires permits for the gas bottles but If I'm not home the signs will warn them. I sure do not want to be responsible for anyone not returning home to their family after the fire.
 
Years ago a good beer party trick was to throw a box of 22 shells on the bonfire. Everyone would run and be scared. When they go off, the casing flies as it is lighter than the bullet. No one ever got hurt that I know of.
 
(quoted from post at 23:31:29 09/17/14) .
From the firefighters point of view..

I read the text. Someone got hurt by shrapnel from an unknown source, so it's got to be the ammo even though there's propane tanks popping off?! The story about the semi auto rifle firing by itself, okay, maybe a 1 in a million chance of that repeating.

In 20 plus years of law enforcement (and about 10 years as a volunteer fireman) I've been told numerous times, including here, and have seen thousands of replies to other people regarding the safety of a police officers life that if we didn't want to face the risk then we should quit the job for something safer. Sounds like the same advice would apply to firemen. If anyone really think everyone should be labeling their homes with HazMat signage for all the spray cans of paint, flammable chemicals and lube, acetylene or oxygen tanks, propane, ammo, gasoline, diesel, etc.......where would it end? I know there are communities where there is an actual chance the fire dept will arrive in time to actually save the structure, but out here all they'll be doing when they show up 15-30 minutes after the alarm is hosing down the foundation.
 

Yeh - I'd make sure they knew what they were getting into - The rest is up to them.

All I know about ammo 'cooking-off' in a fire is that if it's just loose cartridges it'll pop the case and the slug will hardly move at all. Tried it once with a 35 Remington round :roll:

Back about 1950 my Grandma was a teacher in a country school and some of the 'big' boys threw a box of .22 longs into the basement coal furnace - She said later that it sounded like popcorn but did no damage whatsoever. 8)
 
(quoted from post at 17:50:36 09/17/14) So, let's see what the options are:

1. Warn the firefighters that are risking their lives to save your property. Let the professionals make the call on how they want to proceed and you aren't then liable if someone gets injured or killed. You then remove any hypothetical insurance issues and find out the hard way if you are "in good hands".

2. Keep the information to yourself. Risk killing the people who are dedicated to doing some of the most dangerous work there is. Take the chance that your silence takes the life of a man who likely has a family. You set yourself up for a wrongful death lawsuit that could destroy you and your family.

2a. The news media gets wind of all of this and you are called out as an insensitive person who's only focus is benefitting himself. This will only go on for so long but the firefighter is still dead and his children grow up without a father.
Still there is someone who benefits from all of this grief... the attorneys.

Me, I tell them what's in there and stand back. I thank them for their service even if we stand together and watch it burn to the ground.

Before that happens and you choose poorly, how about a fireproof safe for the ammo and powder? I bet your insurance guy would like that.

Sooooo...... Which one did YOU choose :?
 
I had a house fire in 1997 and had about 10'000 rounds of 45 and 30 cal for a few M1's. They popped for awhile but did no harm..
 
Tightly boxed shotgun shells might be more dangerous in a fire than rifle cartridges.

At my high school they flushed cherry bombs down the toilet. That busted the cast iron drain pipes.
 
(quoted from post at 00:59:44 09/20/14) Tightly boxed shotgun shells might be more dangerous in a fire than rifle cartridges.

At my high school they flushed cherry bombs down the toilet. That busted the cast iron drain pipes.

Smokeless powder burns, it doesn't explode. Plastic shotgun shells are going to melt and the powder will burn, the primers probably pop. That's it. No explosions, no chain reactions creating Hollywood style infernos. Same as cars, they do not explode. A fire that gets to the gas tanks usually results in the line burning off and a lot of fire, but not huge fireballs and people flying through the air.
 
Do you think people sometimes bring up topics that they're not thinking about? Of course I was thinking about it. I know what I'd do---I can't kill any living thing without feeling a certain amount of remorse. I know that no amount of money would be worth the remorse and shame I would feel for the rest of my life for hurting an innocent person, or allowing an innocent person to be hurt. But not everybody feels that way. Even on this site, which is composed of generally good people, many are completely comfortable with the practice of killing living things for their own entertainment and enjoyment. Clearly, values are neither absolute or universal. I posed my question because I suspected that the situation I described would create a moral dilemma for some people, and I was interested to see what others had to say about it. Thanks for being judgmental, though.

Stan
 

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