Rifle questions

The state of Ohio now says we can use rifles to deer hunt. This is our rules per ODNR
"Straight-walled cartridge rifles in the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Cassull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110, and .500 Smith & Wesson."
What would the best round be to buy a gun in as well as a good economical gun? Im looking for something that will reach out I shoot my slug gun comfortably at 100 yards so if im buying a new gun I want it to outdo my old slug gun.
 
I would say the 45-70. but in all honesty, with the rounds that are legalized I would still stick with yhe slug gun or start shooting sabots from the shotgun.
 
I'm going to venture a guess with the .45-70, friend has one, seems to be a decent 100 yd caliber, he's been successful with it here, and you would think given its longevity, popularity, would economically feasible, just a guess. I have hunted with a 44 Magnum, a ruger carbine, I did not care for it, but that does not mean much, I had a bizarre misfire, delayed fire with it, real cold temps up in the nearby mountains, though I am sure it has to be effective within its range, as are the other calibers, we are very fortunate we have never been restricted to shotgun or calibers like you listed. I'd like to be stubborn and say I would hate to have to deal with that, however its adaptable, just have to keep a little closer to your target. It will be interesting to hear the comments on this one, great question in regards to those calibers, I've always enjoyed those kinds of discussions, I used to really enjoy guns & ammo as a kid, just for this reason LOL !

Nearby county with the state capitol in it, and has lot of rural farm areas as well, is all shotgun, yet you have clear open ranges in the rural areas. Where I am, homes have increased over the years, and I do know of one incident, not far from my boundary where a bullet went into a house, and I assume that's what a lot of this is about, thankfully nothing came of it. I've never seen a problem with the use of high power rifle calibers when properly used, and safe shots are taken, its no concern, the neighboring land owner has stands near the property line and we're all(stand locations and direction faced) orientated to be safe and know exactly what is safe and what is not, well that's another discussion anyway LOL !
 
These straight walled cartridge rifles are neat but do not overlook the new inline muzzle loaders. I am very competent with mine at 200+ yards. Of course you need to be comfortable with only one shot. Depends if you are sitting or pushing for deer.
 
I would certainly consider the 38-55, and if I could find the rifle I would buy a Savage Model 99 in that caliber. The 99 is a hammer less lever action with a brass rotary magazine. Definitely a class act. The round started as a black powder round in the late 1800's. It made the transition to smokeless powder. It would definitely out perform your shotgun. Ellis
 
Interesting bunch of calibers. Essentially, most are pistol calibers with a few of the old "buffalo gun" rounds thrown in. Several are marginal for deer, and most are realistically around 100-yard calibers. I've hunted for many years with a Ruger .44 Magnum carbine, and at 100 yards or a bit over it will do a fine job on deer, though beyond that, things drop off pretty quickly. The .45-70 makes a fine 200-yard deer cartridge with an excellent selection of guns running the gamut from old Trapdoor Springfields to modern lever-actions. It's good for FAR beyond that--it's routinely used in 1000-yard matches--but the trajectory of any of the old buffalo guns (.45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100 and .50-110 in the list above--the numbers represent the caliber followed by the number of grains of black powder used in their original loadings) is quite a "rainbow" and unless you practice enough to be good at estimating both range and hold-over, they're not a great long-range choice. Several in the list above (.357 maximum, .41 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, and .45 S&W plus maybe 1 or 2 others) are essentially obsolete pistol rounds and unless you have a gun and ammo already are not worth the effort for most people to use. The .38 special, and .45 ACP are, in my experience, a tad light for deer--fine for an experienced hunter at short range (under 50 yards, and the more under the better) but there are better choices on the list. Again, all of the above are my observations, based on 20+ years of shooting and hunting with most of the cartridges on the list, and others may have different experiences. Depending on what you're planning on, to be honest, I'd stick with a 12 or 20 gauge slug gun over nearly everything on the list you gave.
 
Growing up in WV, the .444 Marlin was a very popular deer rifle. If you want adequate power and range, reasonable gun cost, and reasonable ammo availibility, that would be my choice from your list of options, hands down.
 
.375 H&H is not a "straight walled" cartridge case so wouldn"t be allowed. Looks like the selection is the old black powder cartridges and some modern clones- like the .444. Shotgun only areas sometimes had "primitive" muzzle loaders allowed as in replicas of up to about 1860s civil war issue. The list seems to be the up to 1880s cartridges common enough just before the smokeless powder and necked cartridges became more common- the 38-55 from black powder days is allowed but not the 30-30 smokeless necked down cartridge. .375 H&H is a old cordite load with a long taper instead of sharper shoulder- but it is still a necked down cartridge. Recommendation? Marlin rifle in 45-70. Factory ammo available and reload can get extra 50 meters over factory load easily with safety in the strong action. You now work with 100 yard shotgun slug range, the factory load will get you out to 200 yard with a 400 grain bullet and a careful handload with the 500 grain hollow point will get you to 250/300 yards with same group size as shotgun plain slug at 100. If you do a single load with a pointed bullet in chamber, one extra only in magazine then you can figure 300yards from a quick rest and a 4 power scope or decent peep sight- and the lever action Marlin is a side ejector that can take a scope if law allows. If no scope allowed then a tang mounted "primitive" peep usually is and the side of receiver Lymans good for 200 yards plus depending on eyes-- what old Mauser 8mmwas sighted in at with the hunting peep. If you want to get fancy- the 50-110 in a new Sharps- that is the 1000 yard target gun with the yard long barrels or the 400 yard buffalo gun with 28 inch. Rossi and New England firearms makes single shot break opens in the 357 maximum which is a stretched .357 mag, .44 mag and 45-70. That is the plain meat getters legal rifle, the .44 mag is 100 yard or so like the shotgun, the 45-70 will be the 200 yard model but check the recommended handloads for them- I think they are low proofed at 40,000 pounds instead of the 50,000 pounds of the Marlin lever action and operating pressure should be kept 20% lower- meaning a 40,000 pound reload in the strong action, 35,000 or so in weaker action which is pistol load +P range in .357. .444 in a tight twist custom barrel can handle 350/400 grain bullets- factory is a 255 or 265 grain for the same slow twist as the .44 mag pistol/rifle cartridge- but it will get out to 150/200 yards where the .44 mag standard load is 100 yard. RN
 
Sounds like your state wants a short range sort of gun. I hunt with a 44mag both pistol and a rifle. I have a Winchester 94 in 44MAG and it is a good little gun that will stop any animal in north America
 
Those H&H rounds are all belted aren't they ?
If so then they would not be straight walled.
 
I hate to break this to you.. but .. 45-70 is a tapered cartridge too.

Neck diameter .480 in
Base diameter .505 in

50 -90 has a straight taper.

Neck diameter .528 in
Base diameter .585 in

i havn't looked at the other variants listed.. but i had those in my file as i reload.
 
they are belted magnums.

however. 45-70 is a taperd case

I havn't looked at the others.. but even 50-90 has a smaller neck than base diameter... thus neither are straight wall cases.

relaod manual lists 45-70 as tapered case and 50-90 as straight taper. neither are listed as straight walled.
 
I hunt with a 12 gauge slug gun. But have been told numerous times that a 16 gauge slug gun is comparable to using a rifle.
 
The .44 mag in the Winchester or Marlin is a nice gun. Like the gent below, I have a Model 94. However you are still limited to about 100-125 yards for reliable killling power on deer sized game. The . 375 winchester would be better but ammo availibility would be a factor. The 38/55 is a 100 yard gun and not much more either, which is the reason Winchester introduces the .375. Unless you reload, ammo would be a hassle on that one too. All of the old black powder numbers would be good deer and bear killers. However trajectory curves past 150 yards becomes a real factor and unless you do a lot of practice hits past 150 might be a problem. The 45/70 would be the easiest to get ammo for. That is readily availible. For the bigger straight wall numbers a specialty place will have all the ammo you want, but $$$$$$.

The milder pistol calibers like the .44 sp., 45 colt, 45 long colt, .45 acp, .45 S&W are short range affairs and inferior to a shotgun. The 45 long colt can be handloaded to a higher velocity than factory loads, but don't get carried away, and even then, your shotgun would be as good. You'd be much better off going to the 454 Casull and using the 45 colt loads for pests and practice, same as using a 44 sp. in the 44 mag guns.

Calbers like the 454 Casull, 460 S&W, 475 Linebaugh a 500 S&W are probably your best bets if you want something to work at ranges past 100 yards. Still at anything past 150 yards rainbow trajectories will be a factor. These calibers put out some serious horse power and easily best shotgun performance in the 150-200 yards range. I don't have any tables handy, but I expect they all easily best the old black powder calibers energy-wise under 300 yards.

Since you can't use the .450 marlin, you could buy a MODERN 45/70 rifle and you can safely reload the 45/70 to the .450 Marlin levels, which is to say 3/4 of the level of the 458 Winchester magnum. There's a reason many bear guides in Alaska carry Marlin .450's. Many marlin 45/70 guide guns were loaded to .450 levels. Which is the reason Marlin introduced the belted .450. So that some fool didn't put a hot-loaded 45/70 into an old trapdoor and blow half his face off.

I believe the "striaght wall" thing probably refers to meaning no belted cases or necked down cases, but I sure would check before buying a rifle. Most firearms laws are written by fools who barely know which end of the gun the bullet comes out of, unfortunately. Hope this helps.
 
I would go with a 357 Mag in a lever action. In Ohio I doubt if you have any long range shots. Some of the rounds listed are large game rounds and will tear a deer up. You want a round take it down with out damaging the meat.
 
I have been deer hunting with a 44 mag cense Ohio let us hunt with pistols, So if you can find a 44 mag trappers rifle that's what I would look for. Rounds are easy enough to reload and not that bad to buy new. One round 2 different guns can be used.

4 years ago Game Warden stopped by the farm and I asked him that very question, Why cant I use my 44 mag rifle to hunt deer? I showed him my rifle, H&R 44 mag single shot trappers rifle. It uses a standard 44 mag pistol round longer barrel for a better shot. He looked at me and said I don't know? I'll have to ask about this. Well now I have my answer, Thanks Jim. Now I can use my rifle and still carry my pistol as a back up. Bandit
 
If you want a great gun that looks even better get a Henry in your favorite caliber. My 357 Mag. Henry is a great gun!And that brass action and octagonal barrel cannot be beat for appearance.It is a gun that will be around for generations.
 
I have a cheap Rossi 357 Carbine. It is accurate to 100 yards, shooting 38s through it. I have shot 357s through it too, and it shoots nice. I'm not sure if it will have enough knock down power at 100 yards to take a big buck. I'm gonna try it this November. I think the Rossi is right at 500 bucks.
 
I would go with the .357, but I have one in a handgun. Check availability of ammunition, don't walk out of the store with a rifle you can't shoot! I shot a deer a few years ago with a JHP, had the same effect as a .308, deer went 75 yards and fell over dead.
 
Strange list. .38 Special is hardly in the same league as most of the others. Even .44 Special, .45 ACP and .45 Colt are fairly light for deer. And the inclusion of obsolete blackpowder cartridges like .45-90 and .45-110 is a bit surprising.

Rather than start with the cartridge, I'd start with the gun you'd like to use and go from there. Most of those rounds aren't available in factory bolt action rifles, but lever action is another matter. Of course most of the various lever action and falling-block guns chambered in the big blackpowder rounds are huge, maybe not what you want to carry for several miles in the woods.

As far as the particular cartridge once you decided the sort of gun you want, keep in mind cartridge availability. Not too much of a problem if you reload, but if you're going to use factory ammo the rarer cartridges can be a real pain to locate.

Consider a Thompson Center single-shot rifle with interchangeable barrels. The Contender will handle up to .375 Winchester, while the Encore will handle the rest.

In .44 Mag, Ruger makes the 77/44 bolt gun, and there's also the discontinued .44 mag autoloader.

Lots of lightweight lever action rifles in .357 Mag and other pistol cartridges.
 
Dont really understand...But I prefer lever guns,revolvers.Guns with external hammers.I would go for a rifle/pistol combo in 357,44mag.Already have 22s and 3030,others in lever/'hammer' guns
 
Going back and reading the WHOLE topic,357 or 44mag fifle/pistol combo is a fine choice.Ammo is common and available.Now,if you want something that will stop an 'elephant',45-70.These are all available in lever.Get a gun that uses common ammo.'exotics'/oddball ammo can be herd to find and expencive
 
I would go with the 357 Mag. Hornady makes special pointed Elastomer Flex Tip rounds for it that far out perform all others for the 357. It is called the LEVERevolution Muzzle 1440fps, 140 grain. My personal choice of rifle would be the Henry Big Boy, oct barrel, brass receiver, in the 357 Mag. Tom
 
The 870 Remington in 20 ga. with a rifled barrel shooting saboted slugs will shoot like a rifle. Put a scope on it.
 
I would like to chime in. A friend of my dad had a Marlin 444 and asked me to sight it in. Had a 4x scope and I line bore sighted first and live fire with a couple of shots to be one inch overe at 100 yards. WHAT a connon! At 100 yd with the micro groove barrel it held about a quarter size pattern no problem! Told him" if you miss with this thing it AIN'T the gun"! I have a 45 70 and in a modern gun it is a real stopper. If you roll your own you can use Varget powder or others that burn slower and are very clean.
 
never, never, never use a caliber that is used in rifles AND pistols. Use only calibers meant for rifles only. The pistol calibers don't have the punch to kill at decent ranges even with accurate "killing" shots. I hunted for many years with them & they only work under ideal conditions, which you rarely have hunting.
 
Ruger does produce a bolt action 357 mag rifle in the model 77/357 but not a cheap rifle it runs around a $1,000.00 ( only in stainless steel finish).
 
As a reloader, my criterion for "straight-walled" would be whether or not the cartridge requires separate sizing and expanding dies. .45-70 and .50-90 both take separate dies. By comparison, the venerable .44-40 can be sized and expanded by a single die, so I'd call it a bottle-necked cartridge and that would explain why it's not on the list.

Of course it seems arbitrary and bizarre to only allow straight-walled cartridges. That excludes such historical rounds as the .44-40 and .30-30, while allowing modern cartridges like the .375 Winchester and .454 Cassull.
 


Your best economical choice out of the group listed is going to be a 44 mag. The 444 is more gun and in new rifles, about the same price as is the 45-70. Any of those will do.

Personally, there are many options that are good on that list for a handloader that knows what he's doing. Lot of poor information in this thread BTW.
 
Slight taper but not a neck as common to smokeless powder cartridges 1890 and later. Ohio allowed rifle cartridge in the prior shotgun zone seem to be what in some places is called a 'primitive' cartridge as previously noted. 44-40 has taper then a straight neck section to squeeze cartridge while 44 special and derived 44 magnum is straight- but most specs note a slight taper to ease feeding into a cylinder chamber. Straightest pistol cartridges with no taper have the guns chamber specs with a bit of taper instead. Sometimes not enough from the factory for some models. Old Smith & Wesson snubs in the Chief Special 2 inch barrel in .38 special were well known for ejector hangups, fail to eject empties new out of box and long time afterwards unless knowledgable shooter got out the Dremel and the tooth powder, polished the rear half of chambers smooth. Resulting 'taper' wasn't much, .002 or so but just enough to let the cartridge mouth at end of ejection travel fall out. Design shortcoming in the gun- original chambering was for the .38 S&W cartridge that was shorter than .38 special and ejector travel with short rod that locked in under barrel front lug was just enough to have .010 or so extra travel for complete clearance of cartridge mouth from cylinder. .38 special in 3 inch barrel had the travel, 2 inch used the old short ejector rod length as that was all the room available- the drill was hold barrel straight up and shake at end of ejector stroke and hope for no hangups if speed load was attempted. Polished chambers got real popular with working police undercover and detectives, bailiffs that got the 2 inch snubs as discrete duty guns. 'Taper' varies from definite part cone to 'nominal' straight side to 'sort of' neck at end of 'taper' - compare the 32-20 to the M1 Carbine rounds and the newer .32 H&R mag cartridge and specs for the chambers of firearms. RN
 
I agree, very odd logic on the cartridges the picked.. For instance, 45 win mg and 44 mag, but NOT 44amp. ??? Why not?
 
I said taper, not neck, I think their specs for hunting cartridges are dart board style logo without much scientific merit
 
In this area deer hunting is limited to shotguns because of past collateral damages from longer range rifles. Have you looked into sabot slugs to increase the velocity and flatten the trajectory from your slug gun?

My grampa used to scold me for taking long shots, he'd tell me "hunting is about getting close enough to make a reasonable shot count", I had to agree with him.
 
(quoted from post at 12:42:17 09/06/14) Slight taper but not a neck as common to smokeless powder cartridges 1890 and later. Ohio allowed rifle cartridge in the prior shotgun zone seem to be what in some places is called a 'primitive' cartridge as previously noted. 44-40 has taper then a straight neck section to squeeze cartridge while 44 special and derived 44 magnum is straight- but most specs note a slight taper to ease feeding into a cylinder chamber. Straightest pistol cartridges with no taper have the guns chamber specs with a bit of taper instead. Sometimes not enough from the factory for some models. Old Smith & Wesson snubs in the Chief Special 2 inch barrel in .38 special were well known for ejector hangups, fail to eject empties new out of box and long time afterwards unless knowledgable shooter got out the Dremel and the tooth powder, polished the rear half of chambers smooth. Resulting 'taper' wasn't much, .002 or so but just enough to let the cartridge mouth at end of ejection travel fall out. Design shortcoming in the gun- original chambering was for the .38 S&W cartridge that was shorter than .38 special and ejector travel with short rod that locked in under barrel front lug was just enough to have .010 or so extra travel for complete clearance of cartridge mouth from cylinder. .38 special in 3 inch barrel had the travel, 2 inch used the old short ejector rod length as that was all the room available- the drill was hold barrel straight up and shake at end of ejector stroke and hope for no hangups if speed load was attempted. Polished chambers got real popular with working police undercover and detectives, bailiffs that got the 2 inch snubs as discrete duty guns. 'Taper' varies from definite part cone to 'nominal' straight side to 'sort of' neck at end of 'taper' - compare the 32-20 to the M1 Carbine rounds and the newer .32 H&R mag cartridge and specs for the chambers of firearms. RN

I would encourage anyone with any sort of hangups as mentioned above NOT to get out a Dremel tool and go to town on your gun. I've seen a few examples of what happens when a fool and Dremel get together and "fix" something that wasn't broken in the first place over the years. Get to a competent gunsmith and bring the ammo you've been having problems with. Pretty good chance it has nothing to do with ejector rod length or lack of chamber taper and a lot to do with ammo choice, the way the rod was activated and lack of cleaning.

BTW, the "Shake at the end of the ejection stroke" thing was taught until the very last day the NYSP used revolvers in speed loading and those guns had more than enough ejector rod length for the 357.
 
JD,
Octagon barrel? Now that I have got my eyes back, I'm looking for a Browning BAR 30-06 or 300 Winchester mag,with the older steel receiver. Most that we've seen on Armslist has the synthetic stock that I wouldn't own. I'm going again this year with the 300 Winchester mag made by Remington, which is bolt action. The reason I ask about the octagon barrel was that a friend of mine had a 38-55 Craig that at that time there was no ammunition available, damn nice heavy gun. Just wondering,
Regards,
LOU
 
If you want a rifle that you can do about anything with it's the 30-06. There are more differant loads that can be loaded for caliber than any other caliber.
 
(quoted from post at 01:03:46 09/08/14) JD,
Octagon barrel? Now that I have got my eyes back, I'm looking for a Browning BAR 30-06 or 300 Winchester mag,with the older steel receiver. Most that we've seen on Armslist has the synthetic stock that I wouldn't own. I'm going again this year with the 300 Winchester mag made by Remington, which is bolt action. The reason I ask about the octagon barrel was that a friend of mine had a 38-55 Craig that at that time there was no ammunition available, damn nice heavy gun. Just wondering,
Regards,
LOU

The "Craig" (Krag) is a 30-40 bolt gun, predecessor to the 03 Springfield, used in the Spanish-American War. Think you got your names mixed up.
 
(quoted from post at 02:11:36 09/08/14) If you want a rifle that you can do about anything with it's the 30-06. There are more differant loads that can be loaded for caliber than any other caliber.

Except, 30-06 is not a "legal" caliber for deer hunting in Ohio.
 
I know you can't use 06 in Ohio but some of the calibers they can use make no sense. Some of those calibers are buffalo and large game rounds. The 30-06 can be loaded to take down small and large game which you can't do with some of those large calibers like the 45-70. You can take down deer with a 45-70 but it will do a lot of damage to meat.
 

I have to agree with whoever said there is a lot of bad info in this thread.

If your goal is more range than your shotgun, leave the pistol calibers on the shelf. The .45/70, as said by many others, is your best choice. Available more places than the other allowed rifle calibers. An absolute wealth of info out there on its hunting use.

Contrary to what some believe, it won't be overly destructive. The unexpanded bullet diameter is already near what a lot of the faster modern calibers are expanding to after impact, so there's no worry about failed expansion. A lot of guys are hunting with hard cast bullets ('boolits') in this caliber which basically don't expand at all. There's also no worry about lack of penetration - there will be a hole in both ends.

I did notice people recommending the .450 Marlin but didn't go back to your 1st post to see if it was allowed or not. If so, it's a great cartridge. I bought one when they first came out, owned it for several years, and thoroughly enjoyed it. A heavy hitter for sure but 5-shot groups were always under 1-1/2". With a short-barreled lever action, that was excellent.
 
(quoted from post at 19:39:59 09/09/14)
I have to agree with whoever said there is a lot of bad info in this thread.

If your goal is more range than your shotgun, leave the pistol calibers on the shelf. The .45/70, as said by many others, is your best choice. Available more places than the other allowed rifle calibers. An absolute wealth of info out there on its hunting use.

Contrary to what some believe, it won't be overly destructive. The unexpanded bullet diameter is already near what a lot of the faster modern calibers are expanding to after impact, so there's no worry about failed expansion. A lot of guys are hunting with hard cast bullets ('boolits') in this caliber which basically don't expand at all. There's also no worry about lack of penetration - there will be a hole in both ends.

I did notice people recommending the .450 Marlin but didn't go back to your 1st post to see if it was allowed or not. If so, it's a great cartridge. I bought one when they first came out, owned it for several years, and thoroughly enjoyed it. A heavy hitter for sure but 5-shot groups were always under 1-1/2". With a short-barreled lever action, that was excellent.


Good advice, except for the "hardcast" stuff. You don't need hard for hunting and you don't need hard for accuracy. You need proper fit in both cases.
 
(quoted from post at 10:58:01 09/09/14) I know you can't use 06 in Ohio but some of the calibers they can use make no sense. Some of those calibers are buffalo and large game rounds. The 30-06 can be loaded to take down small and large game which you can't do with some of those large calibers like the 45-70. You can take down deer with a 45-70 but it will do a lot of damage to meat.

The 45-70 with the proper bullet or boolit (cast) will not do near the damage (bloodshot meat) that most of the high intensity cartridges with expanding bullets will do. With my 45-70 and a Gould 330 gr cast bullet what you get is a nice 45 cal hole from one end of the deer to the other, in any direction you choose. You can eat right up to the bullet hole. The 45-70 can also be loaded down to 45 ACP or lower levels with ease and complete success. I have a "Collar Button" mould that drops a nominal 150 gr bullet. At 750fps it's a great small game design.

The whole secret to any game shooting is using the proper bullet/slug/shot at the correct velocity and hitting the vitals. Just 'cuz it's fast or big or small or has "Tactical Extreme Deathray" on the package doesn't make it a good or bad choice until you narrow down the rest of the issue.
 
Good advice, except for the "hardcast" stuff. You don't need hard for hunting and you don't need hard for accuracy. You need proper fit in both cases.

Let me be more clear...I didn't mean that a person *should* be shooting hardcast or any other type of solids at deer. I was using hardcast as an example of a non-expanding bullet -- the point being that beginning diameter is so large that major tissue disruption is occurring even with a complete absence of expansion.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on about what these larger rifle calibers are and are not capable of, both in accuracy, range, and killing power.

They are a different animal than the lightning-fast calibers available today, but are not the handicap that many think they are.
 
(quoted from post at 21:30:38 09/09/14)
Good advice, except for the "hardcast" stuff. You don't need hard for hunting and you don't need hard for accuracy. You need proper fit in both cases.

Let me be more clear...I didn't mean that a person *should* be shooting hardcast or any other type of solids at deer. I was using hardcast as an example of a non-expanding bullet -- the point being that beginning diameter is so large that major tissue disruption is occurring even with a complete absence of expansion.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on about what these larger rifle calibers are and are not capable of, both in accuracy, range, and killing power.

They are a different animal than the lightning-fast calibers available today, but are not the handicap that many think they are.

Cast will expand depending on alloy, speed, heat treatment, design, etc. But i know what you mean. I just have a pet peeve about the completely ambiguous term "hardcast". Harder than what? Pure lead? Soap suds? It's an advertising term and nothing more. Been fighting that fight for close to 20 years now.

Nothing in the world wrong with a nice FN design or even a blunt RN in the larger calibers. You are right, when you start out bigger than what a mall bullet ends up it, you are ahead of the game.
 

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