OT: heat pump question

Hi all, I'm thinking of upgrading my ac to a heatpump. the best price I've gotten is on a Bryant legacy series. I have no experience with Bryant and was wondering what your experience has been with this brand. Goodman is the most common brand in this area, what do you think about them? I'm going with a 3 ton and a duel fuel system with propane.
 
In 1980 I installed two new Bryant Heat Pumps. The one that does the most work since its the upstairs unit with lots of AC use all summer IS STILL WORKING PERFECT AFTER 34 YEARS. The downstairs unit (worked a lot less) crapped out after maybe 20 years so they installed a new high efficient super duper latest Bryant unit AND IT ONLY LASTED 2 YEARS.

John T
 
teachingscience,
What area of science? I'm retired both physics and hvac.

Right off, where I live, I'm not a fan of heat pumps. My boy 2 years ago purchased a state of the art air to air trane heat pump, $7800. Nothing wrong with his old heat pump. His 18 year old system was loud, making funny noises, had money to burn.

Last fall I helped him blow 80 bags of insulation in attic. Also installed a power vent in attic.

2 years after HP was installed, he gets a letter from the electric company telling him for the size of his house he uses more electricity than the others. He's trying different fan settings to save money. He called me and we discussed it, but IMHO, heat pumps, even those with very good SEER and COP ratings are not all they are cracked up to be.

Just my opinion. I know others will tell me I'm full of it, there hp last forever, no service calls, pay for themselfs. Good people in the HVAC business make a lot of money, most of it's from service calls.

I would not replace an air conditioner unless it was totally shot, needed a new compressor or has a major leak you can't find. I'm also hearing talk from people in the business that 410a systems are having issues with the high pressure. My advice is save your money until they get a better freon, if they already haven't.

My old A/C, r22 system was installed in 2000. It's a rudd, seer 12, 10 year compressor. I picked it because it has an expansion valve, delay on, 10 year, and pressure switches, which back in 2000 those features were only on the better designs.

So save your money. Then it's more important to find the person in the HVAC business with the best reputation, ask around. Word of mouth is the best recommendation. A good reputation means a good product too.
George
 
I'm physics also! Good to hear from a fellow teacher. I teach 4 classes of freshman environmental and one honors physics and one AP physics. Love teaching but have to tell you that the politics these days make it a challenge.

Thanks for your great advice. I've never had a heatpump and wasn't sure what is best. I do most of my heating with wood but wish I could cut less ( it gets to be more work every year LOL)

Teachingscience
 
It might depend on your climate. Air to air heat pump or geothermal?

I have a 26 year old Bryant standard efficiency furnace and central A/C. They have held up well.
 
Neighbor had a Bryant; just know that he had some trouble with it but can't remember what.

Goodman used to be on the low end of the quality scale but their quality has improved. Conversely, Goodman bought Amana and the Amana quality has gone down.

Your local AC/heat pump dealer can probably get almost any brand that you want, but prices will vary. Supposedly American Standard and Trane are the best units; might want to get quotes on those two units. American Standard is the same unit as the Trane - both made by Trane.

Quiz the dealers and see which units they prefer to service; that may tell you something.
 
I've been retired 10 years, great life.

IMHO, don't go with a heat pump. Want to save money, Insulate, up grade windows where most of your heating and cooling goes. Upgrade doors.

I put over 20,000 brick on one house. When we have 60 degree nights and 80 degree days, my A/c doesn't even come on. Neat how specific heat of brick works.

I also followed an insulator's advice and put extruded foam insulation R 3/4 inch, R5, insulation with aluminum on each side up before I dry walled. No one factors in radiation heat gain or loss, but that really works great.

Keep what you have until it dies, then replace with a good A/C. Do the math, the numbers don't add up. I have 12 rental and 2 homes. All of my places are well insulated and 100% total electric, cheap baseboard heat. Tenants can't get over how easily it is to heat and cool. My 2000 ft brick home has a fixed bill of $135/mo based on last years use, $.10/kw-hr. This is fixed not averaged. For me, do the math, calculate heat losses and low tech insulation is the way to go.

Not to mention, I HAVE NEVER CALLED A SERVICE TECH to repair the heating, it never fails to work. Repair my own A/c's, which is minor stuff.

They are working on new freons all the time. Research all the problems with new higher pressure gasses.

George
 
The further North the less efficient the heat pump will be. Generally electric heat will come on at about 30 deg. outside temperature.

Here in SE pa, we sorta sit on the 40 deg. parallel of lattitude. Electric bills are pretty high for the 3-4 months of winter utilizing a heat pump.

More South, OK.

As a refrigeration contractor, I tend to rebuild the older R-22 systems which I use DuPont MO-99 instead of R-22. A new compressor is no problem, I always include a 5 yr. warranty on new compressor changes. The newer style compressors are holding up very well. They are coming through with the new oil (polyesther) which blends well with the older systems with MO-99.

Moral to the story.......heat pumps are ok to about Richmond, VA on South.

The cost of electricity per BTU of heat is the most expensive around here.

Conventual heat, with Nat Gas is still the way to go. A posibility is a heat-pump on top of the Nat Gas furnace. Wood furnace is good too, only if the wood is FREE!

Personally, I prefer the highest btu's of COAL.

HTH John,PA
 
I was at a heating/cooling supply house just last week. Amazing how may new evaporator coils were stacked up which were returned from contractors as defective.

Biggest problem.....410a pressures are turning up leaks in the manifolds due to lighter weight copper and exessive vibrations caused by the higher pressures. About 2 yrs. of service.

John,PA Most were RUUD products.
 
John,
That's one of the things I've heard too. Glad my Rudd is the old R22. If I recall in 2000, R22 was to be phased out by 2012. R410a may not have been out yet. If it was didn't they have issues with it mixing with the oil?

Not sure if they have perfected a good working replacement for 410a.

I've also heard stories about the extremely cold sub zero winter may have damaged compressors. Just stories, nothing for sure. I usually catch up on things when I visit with BIL. He is second generation HVAC. Has his own business since High School. His kids are third generation. They all work together.
George
 
Hello teachingscince,

Heat pump needs electricity to run. Highest cost per BTU for your hard earned dollar. If your temp does not fall below +35 DEGGRES F.......MAYBE.
If you don't mind the work it would be cheaper to buy wood. Propane is not cheap per BTU either,


Guido..
 
I've got geothermal in this house and over the years it has stayed pretty much under $100/month year round, no thanks to Duke, and their constant cost increases. 3,000 square feet and a separate shop building with all kinds of toys. Just put a second unit (air to air) in for the shop with propane for the colder times out there.

My other house will get a heat pump if/when the existing unit dies to work with the propane furnace.

I think you are onto the best system for you- air to air and gas unless you have the space for the ground sourcing.

BTW- I'm about 40 N
 
For the most part I agree with what others have said which is why I am increasingly becomeing a fan of mini-splits. MS heat pumps are good to below 20f. You can order on line at wholesale and self install if you are a wrench like most YT members. Even if you know zip about hvac,you can complete 90% of install with tools you already use every day. If you choose to have a tech finish the job,find one before you buy. Majority of contractors aren't up to speed on MS so they charge unreasonably high labor and mark up on material if they do one at all. If you have hfc certificate or have a pal that does,that's all you will need to register warranty. You can buy 2 which is all most of us need,install yourself, buy another tractor for the barn and still spend less than conventional. Cooling only the part of house you need at the time coupled with 18 to 22 seer effecieny will save plenty in Southern states.
 
ss55, My BIL has been in the HVAC business all his life. His dad was in the business to. His boys run the business 6 months a year while he is in Florida. He sells and repairs Heat pumps for a living in N Indiana. Makes a good living

Guess what? He too used hi efficiency gas, not heat pumps, in his home, even his rental homes.

My BIL has a beautiful 6000 sq ft home he designed and built himself. Why wouldn't he use a heat pump if they are so great? He could get them at cost. He could install it himself. Doesn't that tell you something about heat pumps?

He had a geo heat pump in his warehouse he didn't sell. So he shipped it to Florida. Uses it to heat his pool in the winter by taking water out of the lake.

Here are some of the dirty secrets that people who make money trying to sell you a heat pump won't tell you.

Compressors, like everything else have a life expendency. If I'm lucky I may get around 25-30 years out of a r 22 compressor in Indiana if peoperly taken care of, no lightning strikes. However that just running the compressor in the summer for A/C, not summer and winter.

google life of heat pump. Average life is about 15 years. Some may go in 6 years, some may last more than 15. Average is still 15. Bet the average number will decrease because of problems like JohnT had. Talk to a realitor, they tell buyer the same thing. Anything past 15 on a heat pump, you are on borrowed time.

Another thing that people selling HP won't tell you, the heat coming out of a heat pump isn't as warm as you are used to if you have a gas, electric furnace or oil furnace. I call it cold heat. Not for me.

Another dirty secret, If you live near to a lake in N Indiana, when you a cold night, you may see a fog coming the lake, 100% humidity. That humidity will cause a heat pump to ice up in a heart beat.

One more secret sales people won't tell you. When your hp goes into a defrost cycle, you are paying twice. First time, during the defrost cycle you air conditioning your house. Yes, removing heat energy you paid for and sending outside to melt the ice off the coils. Then the second time, it costs you to replace that energy. So if you do two 5 minute defrost cycles in an hour, 10 minutes of defrost, You are actually paying for 20 minutes for electricity and getting no heat. BTW, listen to the compressor talk during a deforst cycle. They take a beating. The impressive numbers on the efficiency of a heat pumps don't include the defrost variable.

That's why a geo is better, no defrost cycles. May even get buy not using back up energy source with a geo.

One more secret, when you need heat energy the most, sub zero temps, the air to air heat pump is turned off and you running on backup. Not with a geo, but geo's are very costly and far from trouble free. If not properly installled the closed loop is prone to leaks.

If I crunched my numbers, figuring just my heating bill using cheap baseboard heat vs the just the amount I would save using a geo, it would never come close to paying for itself before the compressor is shot. My total electric bill for the year is $135x12=$1620 Say half the bill is for electric base board heat. $810. So a heat pump may cut that my heating bill in half to $410 a year. A geo may cost north of $12K. The geo would have to last me 30 years and never break down for it to pay for itself. DON'T THINK GEO'S WILL GO 30 YEARS AND NOT BREAK DOWN. Most of the impressive figures on A/c and possibly heat pumps may not factor in the blower motor and circulating pump.

I don't think anyone selling heat pumps will take me up on this offer. I will only pay just the savings each year. They will have to pay for all repairs including service calls. Install me a heat pump and I'll pay you annually just my savings? ANY TAKERS? I'm not holding my breath.

If you haven't figured it out, I will never be a fan of heat pumps. The only heat pump I'll work on is my friend's. He got tired of paying for service calls, so I helped him out. His didn't last 15 years. His had issues from the get go.

George
 
I did a self-install on a Mitsubishi mini-split. My biggest problem was getting the flare fittings tight enough. Two years later it has been absolutely trouble-free and cheap to operate. Sitting outside next to the unit, we can't hear it run over the road noise from the interstate half a mile away. We haven't used the heat feature, but it's nice to know we have another backup in addition to the wood stove in case we lose our boiler.

I don't know if I would have done a self-install knowing now what I didn't know then. But I saved a couple of grand over having a contractor do the installation.
 
I have a system like you are describing: A propane furnace with a heat pump for the AC coil. Actually I have 2 since I am dual zoned. In the summer the heat pump provides cooling. In the spring and the fall the heat pump provides heat. In the winter we get the HOT heat from the propane furnace. I really like it. I am located near Winchester VA.

The building contractor installed Rheem. That was eight years ago. I just replaced one of the heat pumps because the coil developed a leak. I would have repaired it if it were not R22. It was costing me $300 to just add freon.

The sad truth is that heat pumps do not last as long as AC units. This is because they run three seasons a year instead of just one.

A heat pump uses expensive electricity, but by moving heat rather than creating it, it can output somewhere around 4 times the amount of energy that it takes in. It is an inexpensive way to heat as long as your temperatures are moderate (>35-40 degrees). My propane furnace kicks in at 32 degrees and I get good hot heat when I need it. The propane also allows me to let the house get cold at night in the winter and warm it up quickly in the morning. This also saves me energy.

In my climate we use 500-600 gallons of propane a year to heat 4500 square feet (plus stove and hot water). I can't give you numbers on the heat pump because I cannot separate it from the rest of my electric bill. Electric bill runs $130/month normally up to just over $200 in July and August.

I like my dual fuel system. If I had it to do over again, I would do it the same. I would have installed R134A units eight years ago if I had been paying more attention. I did not realize they were R22 until they started leaking.

Hope this helps. Feel free to contact me at cliff
at cantrellhome dot com if you want to talk more.

Cliff(VA)
 
I have a similar system with a propane furnace and heat pump. I am very pleased with it. You do need to understand it's heating limitations and use it accordingly. Mine is set to cut out at 35*. I would do it again. My heat pump is metered seperately a lower rate than the rest of the house.
 

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