Need some GFCI Breaker advice

I need tech wiring info.

We got a hot tub from Craigslist. The control box is fried so I bypassed it to operate with individual switches. It was a 110v system. The pump and the heater can be run on 220v. Everything is good...except it takes a *long* time to heat the tub on 110v. The tub is inside the Fla room. I"m planning to put in a 220v outlet to pick up the heater. It will be switched with a pare of 20 amp switches

I have two twenty amp GFCI breakers for the panel. The heater calls for 5.1 amp on 220v. I have 12/3 w/ground for the power supply.

I"ve been told that I should install a ground rod near the outlet and connect the bare ground to it. So far I"m good with that.

My heater will run 2 hots with a ground. What happens to the neutral from my 12/3?

Should the Neutral become the outlet ground since the bare is connected a ground rod?

I haven"t run any wire yet. Not going to until I understand exactly what to do with the neutral so that the GFCI breakers will serve their intended purpose.

Thanks for any info!

Just put in one 220V GFCI, and fuse the motors in the tub.

> Should the Neutral become the outlet ground since the bare is connected a ground rod?


Um, I got lost......

What are we trying to accomplish?

You will have a 4 wire feed to the hot tub - 2 hots, a neutral, and a bare/green ground.

For 220 you will use the 2 hots and the bare/green ground.

For the 120v controls, you will use one of the hots, the neutral, and the bare/green ground.

In all cases the bare/green ground is hopefully not used, just there for safety reasons if something goes wrong.

The Neutral is not used in a 220 setup.

So, now, what is your question?

Paul

As Paul stated, what are you asking?

I believe you should have one four wire feed with a 220V GFCI for the total load. There should then be fuses located in the hot tub for each circuit.

You do not need to ground the tub.

This is nothing to play with.

http://www.riverpool.com/images/Image7.gif

Don't think the 2 single pole gfci breakers will work. Most likely you won't be able to flip them on together without one tripping the other out. I would go with a 2 pole 20a.

The ground rod can go at the panel if there is not one already. Just tie it to the ground strip with a #6 bare.

Yes, use the one made for a hot tub.

You DO need to ground the tub metal piping if there is any and also the motor if there is a ground lug on it. We always grounded them back to the copper cold water supply for the house. you really need to have an electrician from your area look at this installation because there are other electrical devices that may be near the tub that need attention (such as distance and GFCI protection).

"The control box is fried so I bypassed it to operate with individual switches."

After you posted that, I fail to see why any reasonable person would reply to your post with further "workarounds"!


I'm typically at the forefront of "Presidential Engineering", and have used MANY workarounds/fixes in my 56 years on this earth but WILL NOT muck around with a hot tub or wiring involving a swimming pool or similar wet location.

Toss the defective unit and do without it, or fix it correctly to "as new".

The life you save may be your own, or the life of an innocent person that has been attracted to your "attractive nuisance"!

If you don't know what an "attractive nuisance" is, ask your insurance agent (ASSUMING he doesn't have a weak heart)!

(quoted from post at 18:42:23 08/03/14) I need tech wiring info.

We got a hot tub from Craigslist. The control box is fried so I bypassed it to operate with individual switches. It was a 110v system. The pump and the heater can be run on 220v. Everything is good...except it takes a *long* time to heat the tub on 110v. The tub is inside the Fla room. I"m planning to put in a 220v outlet to pick up the heater. It will be switched with a pare of 20 amp switches

I have two twenty amp GFCI breakers for the panel. The heater calls for 5.1 amp on 220v. I have 12/3 w/ground for the power supply.

I"ve been told that I should install a ground rod near the outlet and connect the bare ground to it. So far I"m good with that.

My heater will run 2 hots with a ground. What happens to the neutral from my 12/3?

Should the Neutral become the outlet ground since the bare is connected a ground rod?

I haven"t run any wire yet. Not going to until I understand exactly what to do with the neutral so that the GFCI breakers will serve their intended purpose.

Thanks for any info!

Click to expand...

Without doing research I don't know what the code calls for, I've been retired too long, and I've never done a hot tube.

A 2 pole GFCI breaker will NOT work with 120 volt devices. It looks for an in-balance between lines, 240 volt, between the two hot lines, 120 volt single pole, between hot and neutral.

Dusty

Thanks for the info guys.
As stated in my opening comment, the heater alone
is operating on 220v - NOT 110v.

The pump, blower & (12v) light continue to run on a 110v GFCI outlet

I live near Ocala and between Lowes & Home Depot, all they had was two single 110v GFCI breakers they would energize the 220v circuit for the heater.

(As for doing a "work around", the difference is an automatic push button system vs one which uses individual manual switches. Also, a new panel - IF it could be found to fit this obsolete unit would be about $800 vs $100 to go manual.)

(quoted from post at 08:08:30 08/04/14) Thanks for the info guys.
As stated in my opening comment, the heater alone
is operating on 220v - NOT 110v.

The pump, blower & (12v) light continue to run on a 110v GFCI outlet

I live near Ocala and between Lowes & Home Depot, all they had was two single 110v GFCI breakers they would energize the 220v circuit for the heater.

(As for doing a "work around", the difference is an automatic push button system vs one which uses individual manual switches. Also, a new panel - IF it could be found to fit this obsolete unit would be about $800 vs $100 to go manual.)

Click to expand...

As has been said, two 120 GFI units won't function in place of a 240 GFI. To add to that, or explain why, the 120 units look for equal currents on hot &neutral, otherwise they trip. Used as you are suggesting will result in no neutral current and they WILL trip!

Thanks! I'll return the two breakers and order the right stuff on line and get a real electrician from our church to install it.

Kind of like the commercial of the guy thats get smart overnight for staying in a Holiday inn.
Hot Tub has electricity and body in the tub, get the right parts, not to play with at all.
Spa

If you need a GFCI-protected 240 outlet, PLUS a 120 GFCI outlet, you need to run separate 240 and 120 circuits. You can't use two 120V GFCIs to make a 240. You can't tap 120V off a 240 GFCI.

I could tell you all kinds of advice about metal bonding all non current carrying metal,ground rod not needed etc.but from reading your question I advise to call an electrician. If there is one place in a home where an electrocution is likely to occur: that would be the hot tub.

Wow

1) "I have two twenty amp GFCI breakers for the panel. The heater calls for 5.1 amp on 220v. I have 12/3 w/ground for the power supply."


I would NOT tie two 110 GFCI breakers together for a 240 volt feed!!!!!!!!!!!

12/3 w/ground will suffice for a straight 240 (NO 120) branch circuit, HOWEVER you will ONLY need the 2 Hot UnGrounded Phase Conductors, i.e. 2 Hots PLUS Equipment Grounding Conductor.

"I"ve been told that I should install a ground rod near the outlet and connect the bare ground to it. So far I"m good with that."

I am NOT familiar with a practice of connecting the bare ground of an outlet to a Ground Rod!!!!!!!!! If I installed a 120 volt NEMA 15 or 20R Outlet it would have 3 wire supplying it, One Hot UnGrounded Conductor (Black), One Grounded Conductor (White Neutral) , One bare/green Equipment Grounding Conductor AND I WOULD NOT DRIVER A GROUND ROD THERE

NOTE HOWEVER Im NOT familiar with any latest codes requiring an earth ground rod at say a swimming pool or hot tub, I been retired too long and not up on latest codes as far as a hot tub etc

3) "My heater will run 2 hots with a ground. What happens to the neutral from my 12/3?"

If the heater is 240 volts ONLY (NO 120) YOU DO NOT USE NEUTRAL. Its 240 from hot to hot. The Equipment Ground is still used so you need at least 3 wires

4) "Should the Neutral become the outlet ground since the bare is connected a ground rod?"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

"I haven"t run any wire yet. Not going to until I understand exactly what to do with the neutral so that the GFCI breakers will serve their intended purpose."

From your post I advise you to hire a competent trained professional electrician

John T Retired Electrical Engineer

Thank you! That's the answers I was hunting!

The 110 is a completely separate circuit - NOT 1 leg of the new line. The ground rod & tieing Neutral to ground contradicts everything I'd seen over the years. I was a pipe welder/millwright.

(Actually, I hope that as stupid as my questions sounded, I get a little credit for asking here before doing something that sounded that screwed up!)

Those spas make some nice yard art.

don't they?

INDEED you get good credit for asking, Billy Bob or Bubba would have done it then asked when it fried lol... Theres no stupid questions, but I see some stupid answers now n then lol including my own at times

John T

I ran 85 turbine millwrights in outages. One of my standard answers for any question was "I'm a helluva lot better at dumb looks than good answers..."

Questions would only sound stupid if you were an electrician in the trade that didn't know. From a laymans point they were normal questions, not stupid.

If you try to supply a 120V circuit with a 240V gfi breaker. The breaker will do what it is supposed to do and trip off all power. It just sensed an imbalance between the Line 1 and Line 2.
What size of hot tub stays warm with 1200W of heat ?
Right now on 120V the heater is producing 300W.
A ground rod at the tub is a good idea. It will be connected to the tub's ground bar and back to the supply panel's ground bar.
Hopefully the supply panel has a separate ground and neutral bar.
Neutrals are an energized load current carrying insulated conductor that is held to near earth potential.
If Anybody that tells you ground and neutrals are the same, kick them in the backside.

If you try to supply a 120V circuit with a 240V gfi breaker. The breaker will do what it is supposed to do and trip off all power. It just sensed an imbalance between the Line 1 and Line 2.
What size of hot tub stays warm with 1200W of heat ?
Right now on 120V the heater is producing 300W.
A ground rod at the tub is a good idea. It will be connected to the tub's ground bar and back to the supply panel's ground bar.
Hopefully the supply panel has a separate ground and neutral bar.
Neutrals are an energized load current carrying insulated conductor that is held to near earth potential.
If Anybody that tells you ground and neutrals are the same, kick them in the backside.