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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

R12

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Richard from SE AZ

05-25-2014 21:42:33
206.169.89.203



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Anyone know where to get the gizmo to put R12 into older vehicles. Small cans.




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dh in Carolina

05-29-2014 05:55:42
173.212.10.195



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  

Amazon at $12.99 and free shipping



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Richard from SE AZ

05-27-2014 22:39:55
206.169.89.203



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
Auto parts stores don't sell that fixture to the public anymore. BUT, a fellow a lot of you know that has been banned from posting read my request and called me today. He will send me one for postage. Can't find his E address, will call him tomorrow. Can't beat the people here.



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uncle henry

05-26-2014 17:19:23
67.223.201.82



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
i don"t have the thing to put it in with but i have about 20 small cans



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js305

05-26-2014 17:12:13
184.79.57.233



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
Not the answer to the question but in about 1991 I was faced with either doing a conversion or without an air conditioner on my 84 Dodge pickup. Being the packrat that I am, I had an older Chrysler that wasn't running but still had pressure in the AC lines. I had two hoses with perforations on my pickup. I could put R12 in and in a week or so it would need more. Long story short: I took the condenser off the Chrysler (it was much larger than the one on the pickup), bought a new drier, had new hoses made at a local farmers hose place and flushed the system with something I was told that would get the old oil out and mix with the new. All of the other parts were left as is. I charged it up with R134 and it worked OK for the next 150,000 miles or so. The temperature gradient is not as good, it didn't cool down as fast, but it would eventually get there. I think the larger condenser made the most difference in how it worked.

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Pops1532

05-26-2014 16:27:49
98.227.133.60



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
Guido,

I agree a conversion is often the best option, and sometimes the only option. But there are some important factors. There are compressors that simply can't handle the higher pressure. There are compressors with viton seals that aren't compatible with R134A. Despite what some think, R134A requires more a efficient/bigger condenser to get performance equal to what R12 had in the same system.
It sounds like the OP already has his own R12 and is just looking for the tools.

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Dick2

05-26-2014 08:37:43
174.19.231.197



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
I sent all my R12 equipment and my stock of R12 to my nephew on the farm in ND. He has a lot of units that use R12; I don't have any units that use R12 anymore.



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Pops1532

05-26-2014 07:26:52
98.227.133.60



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
I wouldn't convert to R134A as has been suggested. R134A is perfectly fine for systems designed for it, but less efficient in systems designed for R 12.
If you convert an R12 system to R134A you'll need a larger condenser to get the same performance as the original R 12 system.
Also, why switch to R134A when it's on it's way out just like R12?
As for where to get the tool with the piercing valve for your R12 cans...ebay, auctions, yard sales, etc.

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jimg.allentown

05-26-2014 11:35:40
98.115.105.174



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 Re: R12 in reply to Pops1532, 05-26-2014 07:26:52  
Sorry to disagree, BUT....
First, the condenser is NOT bigger or different in any way from R-12 to R-134a. At least not on Fords. I had to replace one on a 1992 Taurus (R-12 system) that had been punctured by a stone. Got one from a 1995 one that used R-134a. Same part number, same engineering number on the old and replacement parts. Changed a leaking evaporator on my 1993 Explorer (R-12 system). Got a replacement from a 1994 Explorer - R-134a system. Again, same part, same part numbers. In the beginning, the mechanics in my shop were told that the two refrigerants were totally incompatible. Turns out that was just propaganda to force customers to spend a fortune having their systems "converted" to the new gas. Systems designed for R-12 will work just fine on R-134a. The main differences are the oil and the efficiency of heat transfer. Systems were NOT redesigned for R-134a.

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Bryan iniowa

05-26-2014 12:27:15
209.252.173.22



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 Re: R12 in reply to jimg.allentown, 05-26-2014 11:35:40  
amen! We do a ton of conversions in my shop . R12 is outta sight. If it"s a collector car and they want to keep it original , or if customer has his own R12 I will go ahead and install it . Otherwise R12 is not cost effective . Compressors , condensors,evap cores are all the same . Orifice tube is sometimes different part number . Oil is different. Hoses should be barrier liner type, but not a deal breaker . R134 is going to be phased out ,,but you will see it around for many,many years yet .

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Pops1532

05-26-2014 12:21:34
98.227.133.60



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 Re: R12 in reply to jimg.allentown, 05-26-2014 11:35:40  

jimg.allentown said: (quoted from post at 18:35:40 05/26/14) Sorry to disagree, BUT....

First, the condenser is NOT bigger or different in any way from R-12 to R-134a. At least not on Fords. I had to replace one on a 1992 Taurus (R-12 system) that had been punctured by a stone. Got one from a 1995 one that used R-134a. Same part number, same engineering number on the old and replacement parts. Changed a leaking evaporator on my 1993 Explorer (R-12 system). Got a replacement from a 1994 Explorer - R-134a system. Again, same part, same part numbers.
In the beginning, the mechanics in my shop were told that the two refrigerants were totally incompatible. Turns out that was just propaganda to force customers to spend a fortune having their systems "converted" to the new gas.
Systems designed for R-12 will work just fine on R-134a. The main differences are the oil and the efficiency of heat transfer. Systems were NOT redesigned for R-134a.


You said it yourself....efficiency of heat transfer. That's the condenser.
Just because Ford used the same condenser doesn't mean efficiency was the same.
There's some good info on this site....

http://www.aa1car.com/library/retrofit.htm

The info in that link claims 3-15% loss in efficiency when converting from R12 to R134A.
It's also not accurate to say systems were not redesigned for R134A. Besides R134A requiring a larger or at least more efficient condenser, the discharge pressures are higher in a R134A system than an R12 system. Some of the lighter duty R12 compressors don't last long with the higher work load of R134A.

Also, the materials used for the O-rings and hoses were changed with the change to R134A. Some of the old compressors are not at all compatible with R134A.
It looks like the OP wants to service his own A/C. Unless he were to vent the R12 into the atmosphere (a great big NO-NO with the EPA), he would need the equipment to recover the R12 prior to filling with R134A. That's not a typical DIY project.
This post was edited by Pops1532 at 12:22:30 05/26/14.

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GUIDO

05-26-2014 14:59:50
71.168.202.162



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 Re: R12 in reply to Pops1532, 05-26-2014 12:21:34  
Hello pops1532,

You can lead them to the water.............
Pressures on the high side of 134a are scary compared to R12. Rule of thumb, 10% larger radiator for sure. All the others things you pointed out as well! Some of the newer type compressors may not last long. But a conversion may be the only option,

Guido.



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Guido

05-26-2014 06:12:42
71.168.202.162



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
Hello Richard from SE AZ,

If you have R12 already, just buy the can piercing valve. I would sell the R12, and use the proceeds to change over to 134A. The left over money you can use to buy some cold ones!

Guido.



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jimg.allentown

05-26-2014 04:58:40
98.115.105.174



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
Better to convert to R134a. Conversion is easy with adapter fittings and some ester oil or PAG oil (your choice). BUT....if you do have some R-12 cans, and want to use them up, I have a few old can tappers left, and I can send you one.



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Mushie

05-26-2014 01:39:45
64.223.125.229



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 Re: R12 in reply to Richard from SE AZ, 05-25-2014 21:42:33  
at the auto parts store



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