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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Regulations - Poof?

Author  [Modern View]
jhilyer

01-08-2014 07:13:43
74.81.112.46



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Did the wood stove regulations post go away? Or can I just not find it? Either way, I had a response...

I am an industrial designer by trade, and I see these 'regulation' posts differently...

Although the knee-jerk reaction to regulation is to think of it as "bad", they are actually putting people to work. In this case, all those wood stoves sold at TSC , Harbor Freight, etc, will have to be redesigned for lower emissions. That's someone's job. It's also someone's job to figure out the process of building the new stoves, and also someone's job to build them. They could be more complex, requiring more build hours, that's someone's paycheck.

Another example is the Tier standards for diesel engines. Every time a new Tier standard must be met, that means engine redesigns, process innovations, new production methods, new tooling, new setups, etc. This is good work for engineers, designers, drafters, production planners, and ultimately, machinists and other shop floor personnel.

We may complain about "why couldn't they have just left well enough alone", and there might be a good point there, but the silver lining, in my opnion, is that regulation often spurs innovation, and innovation means work.

(I was not calling anyone a jerk in this post. Not a knee, either.)

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AG in IN

01-08-2014 17:19:18
67.236.89.188



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to Billy Shafer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Sounds like an echo of the project known as "Ignition Park" (http://ignitionpark.com/) that the city of South Bend, IN bulldozed down most of what was left of Studebaker to promote. Few locally will have the skills for the jobs available, and everyone's waiting for the jobs to be available that were promised. Ignition Park will likely never employ at it's peak what Studebaker did in it's final months (yes, fifty years ago). They city and state have all but thrown cash at businesses to come in and build, and not much has happened. The city also used eminent domain to seize some residential and business properties for the project (and creatively well beyond the scope of the project) that were tax-paying and the businesses were at least employing some people and now it's nothing but vacant lots.
AG

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welding man

01-08-2014 16:55:39
216.115.204.175



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
For every job that is created by inovation,2 or more are lost. How many welding jos and assembly jobs have been eliminated by Robots?How many Machinests have been eliminated by CNC machines? The time is near when 1 man can run 6 bulldozers using GPS and a laptop. Where do these people go to get a job that they have spent half a lifetime learning' and we still cannot compete in the so called global market. Not everyone wants to be a greeter at WAL-Mart.

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George Marsh

01-11-2014 06:06:18
50.121.7.90



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to welding man, 01-08-2014 16:55:39  
Every thing changes. There was a time 9 out of 10 people worked on the farm. Now, 1 out of 100 may work on the farm. There were people came to your house to fix a TV. When was the last time you saw that?

Sad to say, If you don't have a skill, you won't have a job. Many skills become obsolete, like a blacksmith. Once need to weld.

Must people without an education can't join the military or work at wal-mart. No wonder the poor are getting poorer.

It's seems like the regulations just keep piling up. Every year new laws are passed that have un entended conquences.

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JML755

01-11-2014 07:40:46
24.192.222.226



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to George Marsh, 01-11-2014 06:06:18  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Yup, I agree. It's not the responsibility of society to provide jobs for everyone. I hear people say "there's no jobs". Well, look at the want ads, there are tons of jobs for people with certain skill sets: nurses, computer programmers, comm technicians, etc. It's a person's individual responsibility to figure out what they can do to earn a living and contribute to society. If they're good at being a blacksmith, great, but there isn't much call for that today. You can't graduate from high school, walk down to the local factory and be hired in a heartbeat at middle class wages. Those days are gone.

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Traditional Farmer

01-09-2014 04:51:50
67.237.188.53



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to welding man, 01-08-2014 16:55:39  
I got bad news Walmart did away with Greeters.
No joke.No job is safe these days(LOL)



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NCWayne

01-08-2014 16:20:00
173.188.169.54



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
What you say is all well and good, but only to a degree. Thing is that those that heat with wood are often the same ones that can"t afford to heat with anything else. There in lies the problem. With more complexity comes more expense, and with more expense, how can those that are already just getting by by the skin of their teeth afford the more complex product.

The same holds true for autos. Granted every new tier created new designs, and someone got paid. The problem is that for those not making much money, they can"t afford to buy the newer vehicles. For a while that"s not so bad, but in a few years, when their current "old" vehicle needs to be replaced, the ones that are so technologically advanced that they require computer controls to make them operate, are already obsolete. Because they are obsolete, parts are harder to get, parts are more expensive to get if they are available, the labor for someone to troubleshoot the problems is more expensive. Prime example. I recently tuned up our '98 Surburban at a cost of well over $200. The same parts for my old '78 Jeep aren't nearly that much. Not to mention, service manual on the Jeep is maybe 1" thick, the one on the Surburban is a 4 volume set that's nearly 8 inches tall.... The list of problems here goes on and on, but you get the idea.

Further as things get so technologically advanced, what usually happens is that many parts of the design process get automated. For instanced a single engineer can, theoretically, do pretty much everything himself with the help of his computer. I mean he can design in a CAD program, do flow testing in other programs, and if he needs a model of a particular part, he can upload the design to a "printer" and have a prototype made. In days past there were folks doing clay models for flow testing, folks making molds for prototype parts, folks doing the machining of the parts, etc. Again, the list goes on, and again you can get the picture.

Ultimately, it"s like a piece I read awhile back written by an engineer. In his case he was hired on with a firm that asked him to design a system for them. The piece didn"t go into detail, but the goal of the system he designed was to take the place of about a dozen other engineers and let one guy do it all. In other word his design pretty much had the capability to put him out of work.

In the end where does it all stop? I mean it"s gotten to the point that companies try to automate everything in order to "lower prices", but in reality it"s to "maximize profits". Thing is when the folks that consume said products are put out of a job making that product, delivering that product, designing that product, etc, what are they supposed to use for money to buy said product? Now work equals no buying ability, and too much automation means no work......

Basically technology and automation have killed this country. Both have made way to many people lazy, or left those that actually want to work without jobs to work at. The biggest problem there is too many of the "smart" folks, be they engineers, politicians, corporate CEO"s, and the list goes on, have forgotten that no matter how smart they are, or how much they make, there will always be the need for someone to build the building, sweep and mop the floors, and do all of the other things that are beneath them because of their position/status/money. Funny thing is they all try it make the folks in the unskilled jobs feel better by calling them "sanitation engineers" and crap like that. Truth be told it"s all a bunch of crap. Instead of teaching a man to be the best he can be at what he does, and be proud because he is the best, they just throw fancy words around to "make him feel better" and feel "more important" because he now has engineer in his title. If that"s not BS then I don"t know what is.

Ok, I"m a bit off from where I started, but the way I see it the whole shebang is really all one big load of crap that has brought this country to about the lowest point it has ever been in the way of manufacturing ability, engineering ability, and worse yet, the avilibility of jobs for the millions that don"t have the mental capability, or money to get the college education necessary for the minimal number of high tech jobs that actually pay enough for someone to live on in today economy.

Prime example of this whole scenario is Cannon Mills, that used to be in Kannapolis, NC. Granted a lot of that mess was our contries rules and regs forcing the company to take their manufacturing overseas. Funny though, the mill workers always made a decent wage and could afford to live a decent life. When the mill closed the BIG thing touted around here was a "Research Complex" that is now setting on the grounds where the old mill used to stand. Most of the "complex" is yet to be built, and the part that is in operation only employees a very small percentage of the amount of folks that the mill did, even at it"s lowest point. Thing is most of those employeed there, and making any real money, were hired in from out of state leaving those folks that used to make good wages driving school buses part time, working at the local Tractor Supply, etc, etc, etc. In other words they went from $15 an hour jobs to $7.50 an hour jobs nearly overnight. OK, we"ve got a technology center now, but what good does it do anyone when the stuff that they may design isn"t affordable to those now making $7.50 an hour?????

Ok, way longer than I planned when I started writing, but when your like me and are out there every day talking to the folks effected by crap like this it becomes something that"s really hard to keep in when an outlet is presented.

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T in NE

01-09-2014 23:00:53
75.235.167.242



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to NCWayne, 01-08-2014 16:20:00  
Yep. It's like saying smashing out your neighbor's window is good for the economy.



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AG in IN

01-08-2014 10:47:05
67.236.86.254



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
There was a time when someone with a wonderful idea could proove it's worth and people would buy into it.
As I said in my original, now deleted post, these government agencies (in this case, the EPA) are going after small slices of society because they can't stand up to the majority, but the minority can be vilified to where they can't fight back. Wood burning stoves and boilers equate to a small percentage of all of the heating sources used in the country. The EPA doesn't want you burning anything, anywhere, ever again. This is a step toward that end. Wait 20 years.
The guy with the stoves that met EPA's reg's. in the original post, good for him. If he has such a superior product, get it out there, proove it's worth, and let people see for themselves. People will flock to his products after the reg's. kick in because their free choice will be artificially limited. He stands to make big $$$ because of regulation, not in spite of the lack thereof.
Many look at regulations and laws in a very basic way. If they don't see it directly effecting them and it sounds like a good idea, they're all for it. When they find out later that in the very least it will cost them more money than those who enacted the rules/regs/laws ever said it would, and other facts come up later that may cause someone to change their view on the law/rule/reg, it's too late, you're stuck with it. Existing laws and regulations can seemingly be expanded without much public imput, or interpreted in a different fashion than ever intended, and then people start complaining. Too late.

I'd type more, but this is all going to go poof, poof, and away, anyway.
AG
This post was edited by AG in IN at 12:40:58 01/08/14.

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RayP(MI)

01-08-2014 13:51:16
207.241.143.114



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to AG in IN, 01-08-2014 10:47:05  
I agree with AG. If it's a superior product it will find a place in the market place. A classic example is what the government did with light bulbs. Outlawed the manufacturing of them, starting with the larger sizes - last to go were 40 and 25 watt. Now we have no choice - we're stuck with expensive replacements that aren't always satisfactory. Squirly bulbs have several weaknesses, including slow start, poor cold weather performance, poor lifetimes (in spite of their claims), more expensive, have MERCURY on board (disposal issues), and one that drives me crazy - they emit interference in the radio spectrum.

LED bulbs are terribly expensive as of date, begin to fade immediately as they go into use.

I need 100 watt bulbs for warning lights for a radio tower. I cannot find a satisfactory replacement for them in the new.

Mark me down as not impressed.

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dr sportster

01-09-2014 09:24:29
67.85.146.74



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to RayP(MI), 01-08-2014 13:51:16  
If you bought a case of 130 volt traffic signal lamps . They would last until [well the rest of your life] someone else can worry about your tower lamps. But what your saying is there is no substitute in the new style lamps. I get that.



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AG in IN

01-09-2014 10:48:50
67.236.98.62



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to dr sportster, 01-09-2014 09:24:29  

dr sportster said: (quoted from post at 18:24:29 01/09/14) If you bought a case of 130 volt traffic signal lamps . They would last until [well the rest of your life] someone else can worry about your tower lamps.


If anyone chooses to try traffic signal bulbs, check the burn position on the bulbs before you buy. Few can be successfully used in any position. Many are labeled for horizontal use only.
Most regular incandescents could be used in any position.

AG
This post was edited by AG in IN at 10:50:25 01/09/14.

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George Marsh

01-08-2014 09:50:54
64.12.116.207



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
jhilyer,
Tier standards for diesel engines won't help my brother who for 25 years was a heavy equipment operator. Now, his lungs look like he was a coal miner, black lung.

I operated diesel tractors as a kid. To this day I can't stand to get close to a diesel without getting a headache instantly. My headaches have been going on for decades. It only takes a few seconds for them to occure. I'm healthy, just had a stress test, good heart. No medical problems the doctors know of.

I know diesels are necessary for large trucks and tractors.

If I were in charge diesels would have to clean up their act so I don't get a headache. I have to stay at least a 1/4 mile behind any smelly diesel.

I hate it when pickups have to show off and blow black smoke in town next to me.

wonder how long this post will last?

George

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Bret4207

01-09-2014 04:37:16
64.19.90.196



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to George Marsh, 01-08-2014 09:50:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

With all due respect to you and your sensitivity to diesels George, isn't that a bit, actually a lot, self centered? Propane burns real clean but the exhaust gives me a headache, so does gas exhaust. We can probably engineer a really clean burning fuel, but at what cost? Is your headache and mine worth destroying our economy?



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George Marsh

01-09-2014 05:28:09
50.121.7.90



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to Bret4207, 01-09-2014 04:37:16  
What about my brothers lungs? Even my lungs have black spots. It's more than just a headache, it a health concern.

States have addressed black particulates from diesels, they just don't enforce the laws.

I'm not in favor of destroying our economy, just cleaning it up a little. I realize diesels are necessary.



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Bret4207

01-09-2014 18:14:53
64.19.90.196



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to George Marsh, 01-09-2014 05:28:09  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

How do prove it was from the diesel and not the dust and dirt from working the equipment? There are people with spots on their lungs that never got around diesels but were around a lot of dust. None of it is good for you, but calling out diesels when there are so many other causes ignores reality.

I'm hoping to get back to working my horses. Lots less dust and dirt and no fumes at all!

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George Marsh

01-09-2014 19:09:02
50.121.7.90



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to Bret4207, 01-09-2014 18:14:53  
Bret4207,
You can believe whatever you want about diesels. Just google diesel exhaust health effects. There is tons of info for you to look at or you can ignore reality.

I know many people who get headaches and are not very fond of black of diesel exhaust.

I never liked the view of working horses.

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howdy1960

01-08-2014 09:34:13
173.191.200.92



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
All I know is a 66 Plymouth Fury 4 Dr I had was all steel, had a 2bbl carb and points with a 318ci engine. It got about 25 MPG at 60-65 MPH. AND I COULD fix it myself. My 95 Mazda B2300 P/U with all it's 'improvements' gets about 25 MPG at 60-65 MPH and I CANT fix it myself. At least I can carry more hay with the P/U lol



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ss55

01-08-2014 11:52:09
50.81.112.224



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to howdy1960, 01-08-2014 09:34:13  
12 to 15 MPG would be more realistic for the 1960's full size cars that I drove with small v-8s and automatic transmissions.



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Ron-MO

01-09-2014 07:58:54
24.177.135.105



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to ss55, 01-08-2014 11:52:09  
Add another to the list of people that used to get 20 plus MPG with one of the old big heavy cars. In this case 66 4 door Impala - 283 2 Barrel, with powerglide. Not a lot of excess power at the low end, but good mpg, reliable. Many 4 cylinders cannot do much better today. I do have a 98 4 door Camry that does about 32, but it is a 4 cylinder as well. Not much improvement in the grand scheme of things and all the supposed efficent designs of the past few years. Years ago there was an article on a project using a 70 Monte Carlo with a 350 engine. If memory serves it did nearly 30 MPG on the highway. Small 4 barrel carb, headers, high axle ratio, but still ran well in a drag race. I put a similar carb on a Chevelle (basically same car), and got mid 20 MPG routinely. Wondering what fuel injection would do? I am convinced that I DO NOT want to go back to carbs and chokes. I still remember stuck chokes, flooded engines, etc all too well in the cold months.

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NCWayne

01-08-2014 18:04:27
173.188.169.54



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to ss55, 01-08-2014 11:52:09  
I drove a "55 Chevy 2dr wagon for a lot of years. It had a high performance 283 with a decent cam and a 4 bbl Holley spread bore carb with mechinacal secondaries, backed by a 4 speed transmission, and if I remember right I was running a 3:53 gear in the rear. That said when I was doing a lot of highway driving I routinely got 20 plus mpg. Around town I didn"t get much less, as long as I wasn"t racing around and kept the back two (larger) barrels closed.

As was stated earlier, for those of us that could work on out older cars, and afford to keep them properly tuned up, getting the same, or better MPG than a modern fuel injected car, was more the norm rather than a rarity.

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da.bees

01-08-2014 12:44:28
72.181.176.234



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to ss55, 01-08-2014 11:52:09  

ss55 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to howdy1960, 01-08-2014 09:34:13 "12 to 15 MPG would be more realistic for the 1960's full size cars that I drove with small v-8s and automatic transmissions."

12 to 15 mpg was indeed realistic when full sized cars weren't well tuned and maintained. But like Howdy,I knew how to repair and maintaine my 1965 Chevy SS327 Impala that got well above 20mpg at 70 to 75mph with air conditioner on. Different strokes for different folks. Those who kept cars well maintained like Howdy saved money AND did thier part to control polution where those in ss55's camp chose to boost oil sales and spew the results out their exhust pipes.

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rossowmn

01-08-2014 13:10:28
134.29.14.251



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to da.bees, 01-08-2014 12:44:28  
I still have my '57 Chevy coupe with a 283 Carter four-barrel. Back when I used to drive it more, I could consistently get around 22 mpg on the highway if I avoided opening up the secondary barrels.



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missouri massey man

01-08-2014 09:23:06
108.90.234.133



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
I actually copied and pasted it here from an arborists forum only to find later almost the identical article in Tractor Talk after posting. It may have been the EXACT article actually. Not reading ALL the forums here daily I didn't know it was a repeat, so I'm assuming this duplicate was poofed....my bad.



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AG in IN

01-08-2014 09:22:45
67.236.86.254



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
The "tool talk" thread must have been poofed.
Meanwhile, threads such as one with a naked picture of Willie Nelson in a hot tub labeled "funny" and another with hundreds of posts on how someone's management level kids couldn't figure out what to do in a power outage without daddy's help persist on "tractor talk".

Must make sense to someone, but it makes no sense to me.
AG
This post was edited by AG in IN at 10:09:54 01/08/14.

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JML755

01-08-2014 09:21:08
97.78.165.195



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
Regulation must serve a purpose other than "creating jobs". It must make technical and economic sense. We've got all kinds of regulations on all kinds of products to protect us from ourselves and..... we pay for it because it means that more hardware and more labor is required to be included in the product than is needed for its basic function. I'm not a big fan of regulations.



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Paul

01-08-2014 09:07:24
66.60.223.232



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
The tier 4 engines are adding $5-20,000 per machine. Upkeep and maitenence means they will become obsolete quicker, cost more to maintain.

Same on the wood stoves.

I understand your point that redesigns and more complex machinery creates jobs.

On the other hand we need to pay for that labor, and so it adds to inflation.

Which leads to less sales.

Which leads to less jobs.....

Perhaps we break even somewhere, I donno.

But I don't think we really gain many net jobs if you look at the whole cycle?

Paul

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jhilyer

01-08-2014 09:47:37
74.81.112.46



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to Paul, 01-08-2014 09:07:24  
Let me say first that I don't believe regulations are some sort of godsend that keeps industry alive. The ability to make money is what motivates industry. Innovation is usually the result of the pursuit of higher profits (good or bad).

Sometimes, maybe often times, innovation is the result of a real desire to improve he human condition (usually by individuals, not a corporation). This also leads to money making ventures. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail.

Either way, both the above examples are better reasons to innovate and create work than to have them be the result of a regulation. I just try to look for the bright side of these things.

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JOB

01-08-2014 07:28:11
74.36.135.13



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
On tractor talk, page 2 at 9:25 AM Wednesday



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Retired Farmer

01-08-2014 07:25:41
72.19.130.74



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
And the best part is, it can all be done in china, with cheap labor.



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showcrop

01-08-2014 09:25:37
75.67.231.80



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to Retired Farmer, 01-08-2014 07:25:41  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I agree, with the price driven up it will be profitable to ship them from China.



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Dean

01-08-2014 09:11:19
24.1.134.162



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to Retired Farmer, 01-08-2014 07:25:41  
Bingo.

Dean



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PJH

01-08-2014 07:25:37
50.40.226.175



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
Is this it?



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mkirsch

01-08-2014 07:25:23
65.199.189.6



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to jhilyer, 01-08-2014 07:13:43  
If it was poofed, it was poofed for a reason and starting the same discussion over again will simply result in another poof. I know the desire to be heard is human nature but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Of course, I'm one to talk in this case...



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JMOR

01-08-2014 16:09:14
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to mkirsch, 01-08-2014 07:25:23  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeI have observed for years and am convinced that about 90 odd % of "poofing" occurs when politics becomes involved. Stay away from politics (includes comments critical of current administration) & you probably won't get "poofed". I could be wrong, now....as Monk likes to say.



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TomR Ont

01-08-2014 15:42:04
184.151.61.60



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 Re: Regulations - Poof? in reply to mkirsch, 01-08-2014 07:25:23  
There is no other place to SPEAK YOUR MIND LEFT.
Talk radio is listening to a guy babble about one subject that he picks gets 3 call cuts them off in mid sentence yaps some more and then go off on another subject babbles again for an hour and repeat.
Don't forget commercials, traffic, weather, sports, NEWS . . . did I say commercials.

"WHAT TALK RADIO"



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