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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Motors and Sparkle question revisited

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John T

10-07-2013 07:09:43




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After reading the fun sparkle and motor question below it appears there is still some CORNfusion out there. Even though some may poo poo the laws of conservation of energy, sorry they hold true. This takes a while but I will try my best to explain a few things for the non electricians out there.

1) It was asked if the "power OUTPUT" is the same if a dual voltage motor were operated at either voltage. There was discussion YES and some NO with the No"s dealing with how if the voltage drop in the branch circuit feeders was greater at 120 due to more current THAT INDEED MAKES A DIFFERENCE. Some of the confusion involved power INPUT (120 volts and 10 amps) versus power OUTPUT (HP = Torque X RPM) PLUS HEAT AND THOSE TWO (in versus out energy) ARE EQUAL SINCE THE MOTOR DOESNT CREATE OR DESTROY ENERGY.... ENERGY IN (Volts x Amps) = ENERGY OUT (which is HP + heat)

2) HOWEVER if the input voltages to the motor were indeed 120 and NOT say 117 due to voltage drop in the feeders THAT CHANGES THE QUESTION. The question is NOT 240 versus 117 but 240 versus 120 and iffffffffff theres no voltage drop in the lines and its the full 120 and 240 volts, then the motors output is "labeled at least" TO BE THE SAME. If you wanna say the output is less due to voltage drop THATS NOT THE SAME QUESTION IF ITS VOLTAGE AT THE MOTOR ITSELF.

3) CONSERVATION OF ENERGY

The motor or its feeder circuit DOES NOT CREATE OR DESTROY ENERGY. Theres a difference in discussing Power INPUT to the motor versus Power OUTPUT. If say 120 volts and 10 amps (1200 watts) comes into the motor that same power comes out SOMEWHERE. However the motor is NOT 100% efficient so some of the 1200 comes out as actual work the motor can perform (HP = Torque X RPM) and the rest comes out as I Squared R heat energy. The more efficient the motor the more work versus how much energy was wasted as heat.

Some of the volts x amps into the motor goes to producing the magnetic field necessary to turn the motor while the rest of volts x amps goes to I Squared R heat.

I think it was our friend Teddy who addressed how if voltage was higher and the current lower THAT MEANS LESS I SQUARED R HEAT ENERGY LOSSES which can improve efficiency

Hope this helps ..........Remember if you say 120 versus 240 the motors at least labeled?? HP is the same at either voltage but thats 120 NOT 119 or 118 or 115 etc due to perhaps line voltage drop TO THE MOTOR and there was some discussion that made it sound like power was less (which it is) but that"s NOT due to the motor, but due to line voltage drop maybe cuz the feeders were undersized???? Soooooooooo if you hold the poster to his word and question of 120 (NOT 115) versus 240 the at least labeled and advertised HP is the same but if theres a 5 volt drop in the line then the question has to be if 115 volts produces same output as 120 !!!!!!!!!!!!

Its been over 40 years since my first electrical engineering job with Century Electric Motor Company so this may not be perfect accurate but I still hold to the engineering and physics and conservation of energy that says the motor does NOT create or destroy energy and energy in = energy out its just that some out is HP and the rest is heat.......

Gonna be a fine day here in sunny Austin Texas, yall take care now

John T Too dern long retired electrical engineer grrrrrrrrrr

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Ken Macfarlane

10-09-2013 07:38:03




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 07:09:43  
Now how does that go Eli the iceman? Inductive loads voltage leads current capacitive loads current leads voltage? Off one power factors seems to confuse a lot of the home built infinite power machine folks. They rarely correct for it or want to hear about it.



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John T

10-09-2013 09:33:34




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to Ken Macfarlane, 10-09-2013 07:38:03  
Who is Eli???? Until he arrives here"s a brief discussion

This may help just a tiny bit, but AC circuits and reactance AND POWER FACTOR sure cant be explained in a paragraph. IE This will not help Billy Bob or Bubba one bit

At T = 0+ an Inductor is very high resistance like an initial open circuit as it opposes any sudden change in current.

At T = 0+ a Capacitor is like an initial short circuit cuz the electrons flow easily to accumulate a charge on the opposite plates and it opposes any sudden change in voltage. Once fully charged, to DC at least it acts like an open circuit but will pass AC with its reactance depending upon frequency, higher the frequency the less reactance.

In a pure resistive load no L no C the Power factor is unity 1, voltage is in phase with current. If either L or C are out of balance the current either leads or lags (l OR c). The power factor is the cosine of the angle between the voltage and current legs and the cosine of zero is one i.e. if both in phase the power factor is cosine of zero or one.

OKAY Im NOTTTTTTTTTTTT gonna take the time to argue or fight or try to explain this subject which can fill electrical engineering libraries and take a ton of time to study and comprehend so if yall are interested take a few courses and study up IT IS INTERESTING AND FASCINATING

That"s all I have to say about that lol

John T

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Ken Macfarlane

10-11-2013 06:41:36




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-09-2013 09:33:34  
Hi John eli the ice man was an old memorization mnemonic. E (voltage) before I (current) for L (inductive). I can't even remember why L is used for inductive load, isn't the units Henries for inductive loads? Oh well thats what electrical engineers are for!



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rweny

10-08-2013 15:49:15




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 07:09:43  
Hey john T. I also have a daughter that lives in Austin. We go to see her at christmas most years. We have been going late years in June for dance recitals. It is hot then.It is still hot there. Enjoy your time with your daughter.



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John T

10-08-2013 16:25:03




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to rweny, 10-08-2013 15:49:15  
I was here in the summer also TOO DERN HOT daughter banned me from visiting then said dad was TOO HIGH MAINTENANCE LOL since I made her start car and turn on AC before I got in.

Much better now, cool nights warm days in eighties. Were visiting,,,,,,,,Bluegrass jamming,,,,,,,,,square dancing

Life is good

John T



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George Marsh

10-08-2013 09:00:11




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 07:09:43  
JohnT,
Just to let you know the ACLU is contesting the law of conservation. They think it's too consertive.
George



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GUIDO

10-07-2013 14:43:56




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 07:09:43  
Hello John T,

I take from your explanation that V X A is still the law. I commend you for your patience, but sometimes it hits home, and makes all worth it doesn't it?. Stay cool, that Texas sun is a mean one!

Guido.



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John T

10-07-2013 15:25:03




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to GUIDO, 10-07-2013 14:43:56  
Thanks Guido, Yeppers fer as I know Power in Watts still = Volts X Amps (or I Squared R) and a motor or other device doesnt create or destroy energy but ONLY CHANGE ITS FORM...... My patience grows thin at time but ya gotta realize its IMPOSSIBLE to explain in a paragraph what takes entire libraries and years of study and experience to comprehend so I don't hold it against anyone who may be electrically challenged. Heck try to make me understand hydraulics or thermodynamics or chemistry or medicine etc AND ID BE OUT TO LUNCH AND TOTALLY IGNORANT so if a person isn't into physics or engineering that's no big deal actually BUT I STILL TRY MY DARNDEST TOO EXPLAIN IT ANYWAY LOL

Yep its hot in the days here in Austin Texas but cools down at nights now in October. I was here one summer but the daughter said I cant come back in summer when its so hot BECAUSE IM TOO HIGH MAINTENANCE what with complaining and making her start the car and AC BEFORE I got in lol

Don't get yer wires crossed Guido man

John T A Texan for a month

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GUIDO

10-07-2013 19:00:40




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 15:25:03  
Hello John T,

Last time I was in Texas it was pretty hot as I recall. One thing I remember for sure, the have some excellent air conditioners. I had to sleep under 2 blankets! HA! HA! By the way, I'm getting back on using a Simpson 260, So crossing wires is not an option!

Guido.



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old

10-07-2013 19:13:45




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to GUIDO, 10-07-2013 19:00:40  
Been around 30 years since I messed with an old Simpson 260 I learned to hate them in the navy.



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John T

10-08-2013 06:39:42




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to old, 10-07-2013 19:13:45  
I still have mine Rich, actually I like it at times much better then a new fangled digital grrrrrrrrr

John T



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old

10-08-2013 08:36:24




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-08-2013 06:39:42  
You have to remember in the military a meter gets handed around and about 75% of the time you grabbed the one that the last guy left on the wrong scale and you had a dead battery or he had dropped it and it was way out of cal etc



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jammison

10-08-2013 08:59:16




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to old, 10-08-2013 08:36:24  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeNever knew much about the Simpson 260, did you? There is nothing about leaving it on ANY scale that will drain a battery in it if the test leads are not connected to something & that includes all resistance scales.



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GUIDO

10-08-2013 15:52:06




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to jammison, 10-08-2013 08:59:16  
Hello jammison,

I got away from the meter in the 80's. I like it because YOU have to decide where to set the dial, and that keeps you thinking. My older one got messed up from the students at school. Now the one I have cost me $10 at a yard sale + batteries,
I use it on the bench only

Guido.



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George Marsh

10-07-2013 09:27:18




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 07:09:43  
JohnT,
You mean the 1 hp 110v motor I have running powering up a 220v genny that powers up a 2 hp 220v motor ,that powers up a 440v 3 phase genny, that powers up a 4 hp 3 phase motor, that's been running for the past 10 years powering up my air compressor and all my shop tools really doesn't work???? Come on:)

Have fun in Austin.
George



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John T

10-07-2013 10:01:07




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to George Marsh, 10-07-2013 09:27:18  
Sure they "can" all work George (if functional that its)!!!!!!!!

And also sure none are 100% efficient, the energy you put INTO them all comes out as HP and Heat, they dont create or destroy energy

UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME SORT OF PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE !!!! Come on is right

John T



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Bob

10-07-2013 09:47:20




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to George Marsh, 10-07-2013 09:27:18  
Of COURSE that all works!
(Magnetism, you know!)
This post was edited by Bob at 10:31:28 10/07/13.



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George Marsh

10-07-2013 15:15:47




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 Re: Motors and Sparkle question revisited in reply to Bob, 10-07-2013 09:47:20  
Bob,
Not just magnetism, it a combination of super magnets and super conductors. Once you get the current going in a coil made of super conductors, it never stops. Don't forget that the earth is full of electron going back and forth to the nearest power station, so the super magnets, once spinning pull the earth's electrons from the grounding rod and it keeps everything moving. There is no heat produced in a super conductor so no need for power factoring. The real trick is the flux capacitor.
George

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