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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: Sparkle question

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old

10-05-2013 08:10:13
209.86.226.60



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One would think that but I have found over the years torque and HP do not go hand in hand on many things. Like compare an old Oliver S88 with that 6 cylinder to a Farmall 450 both are rated at 55HP but the Oliver will pull circles around the Farmall due to the 6 cylinder producing more torque power




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John T

10-05-2013 18:56:36
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-05-2013 08:10:13  
Regardless, unless they changed the laws of physics and the definition of HP, its a function of Torque x RPM. Olivers (less torque) get their HP cuz they run at higher RPM while the slow RPM 2 banger Deeres (higher torque) with their long strokes get HP due to higher torque.

Nowwwwwwwww its been a few years since I studied Physics and Thermodynamics and Engineering but best I recall HP is a function of (a math fudge factor number I forget) Torque X RPM so if the laws of physics and HP definitions (Torque X RPM x Factor) have since changed I will stand corrected, but until then THATS MY STORY N IMA STICKIN TO IT LOL

If anyone has changed HP formulas PLEASE ADVISE OF ANY CHANGES, I still recall its Torque X RPM x Factor????????????

Any Physics majors or mechanical engineers out there???

John T

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Indiana Ken

10-06-2013 06:45:44
66.249.233.14



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-05-2013 18:56:36  
John,

Regarding the use of "factors" to compute engine horsepower:

1) There is the number "5252" which is the constant used to make the units work out.

2) There are "correction factors" to allow horsepower measurements to be compared at standard day conditions. This allows horsepower measurements taken at different weather conditions to be compared. This is called "corrected HP".
Brake horsepower is determined by testing the engine on a dynamometer. All testing is conducted at full throttle with engine speed (RPM) controlled by the dyno. The dyno does not measure HP directly; the measurements taken are, torque and RPM.

HP is then computed from: HP = [Torque (ft-lbs) x RPM / 5252. Since torque is measured at RPM values through out the engine's operating range there are multiple values for torque and HP. Generally a curve (graph) is constructed and the peak torque and peak HP values are reported.
Typically the HP is corrected to standard conditions, also called SAE correction factors (J codes). A current standard is J1349 which corrects to; 29.23 in hg, 77 degrees F and 0 % humidity. Also, in common use is correction to; 29.92 in hg, 60 degrees F and 0% humidity. The difference between the two is approximately 4%, with the later being the greater.

Ken

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John T

10-06-2013 15:16:45
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to Indiana Ken, 10-06-2013 06:45:44  
Thanks, gotta love those laws of physics, thanks for that missing number, now if we can get Rich on board were there

John T



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GUIDO

10-06-2013 12:53:59
71.168.247.153



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to Indiana Ken, 10-06-2013 06:45:44  
Hello Indiana Ken,

Pretty close from what I was thought in engine school. The 60 degrees and 29.92 was called then, sea level H.P. While the SAE H.P. was @500 feet 85 degrees and 28.38 In/Hg,

Guido.



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old

10-05-2013 19:10:14
209.86.226.59



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-05-2013 18:56:36  
One thing I have learned over the year is that numbers on paper look good but many many times do not add up when it comes to real life. Sort of like what comes out of the mouth of those in D.C. all sounds good but when it hits the fan is just a big bunch of bull crap



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John T

10-06-2013 06:02:38
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-05-2013 19:10:14  
FOR SURE Politicians are indeed that way.

Sorry I didn't find that formula for you Rich, its HP = Torque x RPM divided or multiplied by that dern fudge factor lol which is some constant number.

Torque is that turning or twisting force typically measured in Foot Pounds,,,,,,RPM you know what that is,,,,,,and HP is one multiplied by the other (plus fudge factor).

A lower RPM Two cylinder Deere with that long stroke can develop as much HP as a short stroke (therefore less torque) Oliver but its running at a faster RPM and since HP = Torque x RPM the actual on paper HP can be the same

Also consider my Unstyled B John Deere tractor is rated at something like 12 HP at around 1200 RPM while my pansy sissy lawn more is rated maybe more HP BUT THATS AT 3600 RPM. And if coupled to a plow (even if geared and weighted down), which you think would pull it best LOL

Hope this helps you understand the engineering and physics relationship among all three components, take care now

John T

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old

10-06-2013 08:11:15
209.86.226.32



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-06-2013 06:02:38  
I understand HP and torque power but also know that a 6 cylinder Oliver pulls a lot better then the same HP 4 cylinder due to the 2 extra cylinders and can be a small cubic inch engine to boot



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Stuart

10-07-2013 13:39:02
166.181.3.21



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-06-2013 08:11:15  
Your not comparing apples to apples there. Put a 55 hp Oliver on a dyno and that is all it will produce.Even when lugged below rated rpms. Take that 55 hp Farmall 450 and lug it below rated rpms and hp will go up on the dyno. Did the two tractors have the same weight? Balance? Tire size? Gearing?



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old

10-07-2013 16:05:35
209.86.226.59



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to Stuart, 10-07-2013 13:39:02  
How many time have I told you I do not want to here any thing out of your stupid pie hole. I am nice enough not to answer you so be as nice and leave me alone forever



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Unclecharlie

10-08-2013 07:13:17
66.87.18.248



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-07-2013 16:05:35  
What Old just said can be recognized as a concession. No more facts, references, not even any more unsupported opinions. Simply at end of his rope. Let the name calling begin!



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John T

10-06-2013 15:15:11
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-06-2013 08:11:15  
Yep its all about HP and Torque coupled with the right gearing and TRACTION and the one with the best WINS LOL. The laws of physics, however, remain true wooooooo hoooooooo

Youre getting there Rich, glad youre understanding it

John T



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old

10-06-2013 18:21:16
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-06-2013 15:15:11  
Ah but the law of physics is not always right as in the case of the bumble bee and it not being able to fly but since the bumble bee does not understand physics it flies any way. Sorry man is not always right when it comes to what thing work out to be. One reason I got out of electronics is that you can not see what is going on and ya meters help but your still only taking an educated guess



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John T

10-07-2013 13:15:03
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-06-2013 18:21:16  
Ah, but if the laws of physics were indeed violated, myself and other engineers and physics majors and scientists would love to see the scientific evidence and proof, do you have any data or links or research papers etc where a person can see that evidence and proof????? IF SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW SO I CAN GO REVIEW IT. Has it been published in any scientific journals you can lead us to Rich. You're a good man thanks for the info I look forward to reading about that...... YIKES LOL that is some news......

Take care Rich, best wishes n God Bless

John T

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old

10-07-2013 15:56:47
209.86.226.59



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-07-2013 13:15:03  
John you best go back in history. The laws of physics are written by man who does not get things 100% much of the time. The laws of physics have in fact been rewritten many many time as man learns new thing. As I said at one time the laws of physics said a bumble bee could not fly as well as the helicopter but man learned that those laws where in fact wrong. Sort of like the guy who thinks he can build a machine using a motor and generator and in fact make more power by running the motor off that generator and then have extra power

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John T

10-08-2013 06:43:23
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-07-2013 15:56:47  
Thanks again Rich, Id sure appreciate the info or where you got it so I can study up on it as what Laws of Physics have been violated THAT WOULD BE FUN READING FOR US SPARKIES LOL

Shoot me back here if you can guide me to the info you're speaking of Id sure appreciate it

Take care n best wishes

John T



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old

10-08-2013 08:34:21
209.86.226.32



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-08-2013 06:43:23  
Those book where ones written back before the Radio tube and other such things. As I have said many times I learned things from older people as in the ones that would have been my and your grand father so much of where this comes form is now very hard to find since those book where written 100 plus years ago before flight etc.



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John T

10-08-2013 09:09:11
67.78.33.134



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to old, 10-08-2013 08:34:21  
Great, Thanks again Rich, if you come across the book title (the one written before radio tubes) or any scientific articles or the history of laws of physics that were wrong from which you got that info you spoke about, PLEASE PASS IT ALONG to save me the trouble of finding it alllllllll over again lol no use in re inventing the wheel I always say......You can post the info here or e mail me I guess

John T Ever curious to know more about the laws of physics despite my advanced years lol

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old

10-08-2013 17:51:47
209.86.226.40



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-08-2013 09:09:11  
Any more I have no idea what they where. But your missing the point. The laws of physics are written by man not GOD so we get them wrong over and over and over again. So what was a law of physics today may not be one tomorrow. Like it is said you can not travel faster then light but what happens to that law if say in 100 years man figures out how to warp space and in fact do so.



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GUIDO

10-08-2013 16:06:20
71.168.247.153



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 Re: Sparkle question in reply to John T, 10-08-2013 09:09:11  

Hello John T

Here is a torque rpm h.p. chart for you.
The constant is actually 5252.1, usually rounded off to 5252,

Guido



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