Sparkle question

The power output can be the same but the 220 will use less watts to give you that,so it would be cheaper in the long run if you have a plug wired for use of it.
 
The motor will use lower amperes on the higher voltage but the wattage will be the same on either voltage. . A watt and horsepower are units of the same measurement (power) but of different size.
 
(quoted from post at 17:16:14 10/04/13) The power output can be the same but the 220 will use less watts to give you that,so it would be cheaper in the long run if you have a plug wired for use of it.

I believe you mean; operating on 220 will use less amps than for 120. Watts = Volts x Amps and since the amps are reduced by approximately half the watts remains the same. To be completely correct: yes, the watts are reduced slightly since the reduced amps produces less heat in the windings.

Respectfully,

Ken
 
When the volts go up the amps go down. Double the volts the amps will be one half. If amps are 10 at 120 volts, then the amps will be 5 at 240 volts. 10 x 120 = 1200 watts, 5 x 240 = 1200 watts.
Volts times amps = watts. So watts stay the same, no matter the volts.
 
I agree with my friend the Dusty man and the other sparkies. The motors what you call "power output" is the same if used at 120 versus 240 volts since P = E x I and when the voltage doubles the amps is halved. 120 volts x 10 amps = 1200 watts or 240 volts x 5 amps still = 1200 watts.

HOWEVER if I had my druthers, I'd run it at the higher voltage.

GENERALLY SPEAKING There are wasted I Squared R heat energy losses in resistive conductors (even copper wire has some resistance),,,,,,,,, anytime you can reduce voltage drop across a feeder line that's a also a good thing,,,,,,,,,,,,hey copper is expensive and anytime you can save on wire costs I'm all for it.

John T
 
Then theoretically if you need a 1200 watt motor to
run, you could increase your voltage to 1200 volts
and not have any amperage - don't see how that could
work????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
HP is the same 110 to 220 but torque power is not and the higher voltage is far better for it and will in the long run save you a tad bit. Have run many things both ways and 220 always seems to handle a heavy load better then 110 does but that is a factor of torque
 
Mornin Rich, hows things your way, I'm in Austin Texas for a month in the RV and its HOTTTTTTTTT down here lol

HP is a function of Torque X RPM. On a dual voltage motor the HP is basically the same on EITHER Voltage and the RPM is the same. With the RPM and the HP the same, it follows the Torque will also be the SAME.

HOWEVER the experience you describe "might" be described to some extent (depends on size of wire and length of wire runs etc etc) due to the fact at initial start up when the starting amps may be as high as 4 to 6 times as the running amps, if you're wired at the higher 240 voltage, there could be less comparative voltage drop in the branch circuit and "perhaps" some improved performance!!

Soooooooo in my professional engineers "opinion" Id say the RPM and Torque and HP (Torque x RPM) would be the same at either voltage (Once up n running) but depending on the branch supply circuit and wire sizes and length etc etc it may be possible the starting characteristics could vary slightly MAYBE THATS WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED?????

Take care Rich

John T
 
In the low voltage mode there are more amps. More amps = more heat. Heat doesn't produce torque. So a motor is more efficient at the higher voltage.
 
One would think that but I have found over the years torque and HP do not go hand in hand on many things. Like compare an old Oliver S88 with that 6 cylinder to a Farmall 450 both are rated at 55HP but the Oliver will pull circles around the Farmall due to the 6 cylinder producing more torque power
 
One would think that but I know I have had more the one motor that did more work on 220 then it did one 110. Stall factor was not there on 220 but sure could stall it on 110
 
That happens when the wiring is too small when used with 120. 240 can do the same work with half the wire size since there are two hot legs instead of one.
 
By the way, "half" is a slight over-statement.

If you have a 20 amp circuit hooked to a motor with a 20 amp draw and the length of 12 gauge wire from the motor to the panel is 50 feet, you get . .

120 volts has a 2.7% voltage drop
240 volts has a 1.5% voltage drop.

Increase the wire size to 10 gauge and the 120 volt circuit only has a 1.6% loss. Use 8 gauge wire and the drop with 120 volts is only 1.1%.
 
Welcome to Texas. Hope you enjoy the music festival this weekend and next. Hang on cool weather is supposed to arrive tonight or Sunday morning. Just don't catch the Austin weird thing.
 
Regardless, unless they changed the laws of physics and the definition of HP, its a function of Torque x RPM. Olivers (less torque) get their HP cuz they run at higher RPM while the slow RPM 2 banger Deeres (higher torque) with their long strokes get HP due to higher torque.

Nowwwwwwwww its been a few years since I studied Physics and Thermodynamics and Engineering but best I recall HP is a function of (a math fudge factor number I forget) Torque X RPM so if the laws of physics and HP definitions (Torque X RPM x Factor) have since changed I will stand corrected, but until then THATS MY STORY N IMA STICKIN TO IT LOL

If anyone has changed HP formulas PLEASE ADVISE OF ANY CHANGES, I still recall its Torque X RPM x Factor????????????

Any Physics majors or mechanical engineers out there???

John T
 
EXACTLY, the same per the formula which is correct HOWEVER the I Squared R heat energy losses like I referred to can make a difference if the whole circuits are compared. If the feeder branch circuits are sized to account for voltage drop and heat energy losses that can help to equalize things to some extent.

John T
 
One thing I have learned over the year is that numbers on paper look good but many many times do not add up when it comes to real life. Sort of like what comes out of the mouth of those in D.C. all sounds good but when it hits the fan is just a big bunch of bull crap
 
FOR SURE Politicians are indeed that way.

Sorry I didn't find that formula for you Rich, its HP = Torque x RPM divided or multiplied by that dern fudge factor lol which is some constant number.

Torque is that turning or twisting force typically measured in Foot Pounds,,,,,,RPM you know what that is,,,,,,and HP is one multiplied by the other (plus fudge factor).

A lower RPM Two cylinder Deere with that long stroke can develop as much HP as a short stroke (therefore less torque) Oliver but its running at a faster RPM and since HP = Torque x RPM the actual on paper HP can be the same

Also consider my Unstyled B John Deere tractor is rated at something like 12 HP at around 1200 RPM while my pansy sissy lawn more is rated maybe more HP BUT THATS AT 3600 RPM. And if coupled to a plow (even if geared and weighted down), which you think would pull it best LOL

Hope this helps you understand the engineering and physics relationship among all three components, take care now



John T
 
jdemaris had the correct answer. It's all the same IF wired correctly. I assume you want to run it on 120; better check the current requirement. It may be cheaper to run a dedicated 240V circuit if your existing 120 circuit isn't up to the task and needs to be upgraded.
 
It sounds like you want to define a new unit of measure "torque power". Ain't no such thing today, since power is already defined as torque times angular velocity.
 

John,

Regarding the use of "factors" to compute engine horsepower:

1) There is the number "5252" which is the constant used to make the units work out.

2) There are "correction factors" to allow horsepower measurements to be compared at standard day conditions. This allows horsepower measurements taken at different weather conditions to be compared. This is called "corrected HP".

Brake horsepower is determined by testing the engine on a dynamometer. All testing is conducted at full throttle with engine speed (RPM) controlled by the dyno. The dyno does not measure HP directly; the measurements taken are, torque and RPM.

HP is then computed from: HP = [Torque (ft-lbs) x RPM / 5252. Since torque is measured at RPM values through out the engine's operating range there are multiple values for torque and HP. Generally a curve (graph) is constructed and the peak torque and peak HP values are reported.

Typically the HP is corrected to standard conditions, also called SAE correction factors (J codes). A current standard is J1349 which corrects to; 29.23 in hg, 77 degrees F and 0 % humidity. Also, in common use is correction to; 29.92 in hg, 60 degrees F and 0% humidity. The difference between the two is approximately 4%, with the later being the greater.

Ken
 
I understand HP and torque power but also know that a 6 cylinder Oliver pulls a lot better then the same HP 4 cylinder due to the 2 extra cylinders and can be a small cubic inch engine to boot
 
No I just know what I have found over the years and a motor on 110 will stall easier then one on 220
 
Hello Indiana Ken,

Pretty close from what I was thought in engine school. The 60 degrees and 29.92 was called then, sea level H.P. While the SAE H.P. was @500 feet 85 degrees and 28.38 In/Hg,

Guido.
 
Yep its all about HP and Torque coupled with the right gearing and TRACTION and the one with the best WINS LOL. The laws of physics, however, remain true wooooooo hoooooooo

Youre getting there Rich, glad youre understanding it

John T
 
Thanks, gotta love those laws of physics, thanks for that missing number, now if we can get Rich on board were there

John T
 
Its much cooler today Sunday I LIKE IT but don't like the ALC festival crowds grrrrrrrr

John T
 
EXACTLY, that's the I Squared R wasted energy heat losses I was trying to explain to some of the others. The Power IS the same except if you waste more heat energy in the conductors that feed the motor THEN YOU DONT GET THE SAME AT 120 OR 240

Gotta love energy discussions

John T
 
Ah but the law of physics is not always right as in the case of the bumble bee and it not being able to fly but since the bumble bee does not understand physics it flies any way. Sorry man is not always right when it comes to what thing work out to be. One reason I got out of electronics is that you can not see what is going on and ya meters help but your still only taking an educated guess
 
Ah, but if the laws of physics were indeed violated, myself and other engineers and physics majors and scientists would love to see the scientific evidence and proof, do you have any data or links or research papers etc where a person can see that evidence and proof????? IF SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW SO I CAN GO REVIEW IT. Has it been published in any scientific journals you can lead us to Rich. You're a good man thanks for the info I look forward to reading about that...... YIKES LOL that is some news......

Take care Rich, best wishes n God Bless

John T
 
That is because torque is a square of applied voltage.
Dropping 15V on a 120V motor reduces shaft torque down to 77% of rated.
Same overload on the same motor on the same conductors supplied 240V would drop applied voltage to 232.5V .
Avaliable torque would drop to 94% of rated.
 
Your not comparing apples to apples there. Put a 55 hp Oliver on a dyno and that is all it will produce.Even when lugged below rated rpms. Take that 55 hp Farmall 450 and lug it below rated rpms and hp will go up on the dyno. Did the two tractors have the same weight? Balance? Tire size? Gearing?
 
John you best go back in history. The laws of physics are written by man who does not get things 100% much of the time. The laws of physics have in fact been rewritten many many time as man learns new thing. As I said at one time the laws of physics said a bumble bee could not fly as well as the helicopter but man learned that those laws where in fact wrong. Sort of like the guy who thinks he can build a machine using a motor and generator and in fact make more power by running the motor off that generator and then have extra power
 
How many time have I told you I do not want to here any thing out of your stupid pie hole. I am nice enough not to answer you so be as nice and leave me alone forever
 
Thanks again Rich, Id sure appreciate the info or where you got it so I can study up on it as what Laws of Physics have been violated THAT WOULD BE FUN READING FOR US SPARKIES LOL

Shoot me back here if you can guide me to the info you're speaking of Id sure appreciate it

Take care n best wishes

John T
 
What Old just said can be recognized as a concession. No more facts, references, not even any more unsupported opinions. Simply at end of his rope. Let the name calling begin!
 
Those book where ones written back before the Radio tube and other such things. As I have said many times I learned things from older people as in the ones that would have been my and your grand father so much of where this comes form is now very hard to find since those book where written 100 plus years ago before flight etc.
 
Great, Thanks again Rich, if you come across the book title (the one written before radio tubes) or any scientific articles or the history of laws of physics that were wrong from which you got that info you spoke about, PLEASE PASS IT ALONG to save me the trouble of finding it alllllllll over again lol no use in re inventing the wheel I always say......You can post the info here or e mail me I guess

John T Ever curious to know more about the laws of physics despite my advanced years lol
 
Hello John T

Here is a torque rpm h.p. chart for you.
The constant is actually 5252.1, usually rounded off to 5252,

Guido
a131525.jpg
 
Any more I have no idea what they where. But your missing the point. The laws of physics are written by man not GOD so we get them wrong over and over and over again. So what was a law of physics today may not be one tomorrow. Like it is said you can not travel faster then light but what happens to that law if say in 100 years man figures out how to warp space and in fact do so.
 

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