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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: steel entry doors with steel casement?

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gmccool

09-29-2013 09:05:11
76.9.55.56



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You are free to do as you wish but here is a idea. It sounds like security is the main issue for replacing the door. Why don't you just buy a OUT SWING door, I have installed dozens of them (lets just say in areas where there are a lot of euthenic back ground people that get there doors kicked in) They are just like regular doors with frames, brick moldings, thresholds, ect & look like they should be on a house rather than on a shop. But they swing OUT instead of IN. Gerald

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Mike (WA)

09-29-2013 18:41:41
174.31.197.219



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to gmccool, 09-29-2013 09:05:11  
Out-swing doors have hinge pins on the outside. Pretty easy matter to punch out the pins and remove the door. Doh!



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Owen Aaland

09-29-2013 22:46:11
216.47.32.200



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Mike (WA), 09-29-2013 18:41:41  
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I have an out-swinging door on my shop. The hinge pins are on the outside but they are not re-moveable. It looks like the pins are riveted over on each end. I imagine the hinges could be cut off but like has been mentioned before, those things will only slow someone down if they really want to get in.

The first time I was broken into the door frame was broken out around the dead bolt. I repaired it with a steel plate. The next time they destroyed the door. If they want to get in they will find a way.

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Rich_WI

09-29-2013 21:26:35
50.50.82.205



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Mike (WA), 09-29-2013 18:41:41  
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Thats a common misconception but not really true. Its true if you just grab some el-cheapo hinges off the shelf at Menards. Wile E is looking higher end than that, commercial hinges have various systems to make the hinges "tamper proof". The most common is a set screw that goes in from the side of the hinge and holds the pin down (the pin has a groove so the set screw can go in deeper, preventing the pin from being lifted). This set screw is only accessable when you open the door, once you close the door its hidden. Here is a picture of a modestly priced hinge with a set screw visable.



Another thing to remember, on higher end hinges, they are ball bearing and usually have a swaged cap on the bottom, rather than the pin going all the way to the bottom like in your house (you can see it in the picture above). In your house, you take a screw driver, tap the bottom of the pin up, then the top has some space so you finish tapping it up there. On a commercial hinge, there is a blind cap with knurling on it that is pressed in or welded on. This prevents tapping the pin up and out (in addition to the set screw).
Another little trick I was taught to thwart the vandals and thieves was to surrender the pin.... at least part of it. Cut the pin into sections and drive them in from the top, leaving the top part of the pin that can be removed but the bottom pieces are trapped in the hinge. Good luck getting that hinge apart... the sun will be up before the bad guys figure that one out.

Piano hinges pretty much eliminate worrying about pin removal and they add peace of mind if you are worried about the hinges simply being cut off with a chop saw. They are not chop saw proof but instead of 3 hinges that are 5 inches high, you have a solid hinge that is the height of the door. But if a criminal brings a chop saw, they are getting in toot sweet anyway....

Also, lets not forget, with a custom door you get custom installation. With that comes such features like bolts on a safe. Easily made (even by a homeowner if they do the install) and very effective. Simply putting a few pins through the hinge side of the door to act as bolts like on a safe door, makes the door all but impossible to remove from the outside. Here is a webpage that talks about it, but I have never seen anybody make the pins with nails like was talked about, always heavy round stock. http://ourlocksmith.net/how-to-secure-out-swinging-door/

Remember, every roadblock you can think up can be defeated by a well motivated criminal. The best you can do it buy yourself time. Criminals are typically lazy and scared, they want the easy score. Protect your house with visable and invisable protections and the criminals are likely to pass you by. If they try, they find you have hardened your home and they give up. Like I said above, you cant prevent everything but you can hedge your bets. It dont pay to put $10,000 into protecting your front door because a criminal will just bump your garage door with a car and crawl in. But there are reasonably priced ways to get pretty good protection, all you need to do is plan a little.

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Wile E

09-29-2013 12:15:16
24.180.182.39



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to gmccool, 09-29-2013 09:05:11  
The problem with a "swing out door" is that it can be pryed open with a crowbar. Many years ago on a TV show I saw a special deadbolt that went the entire width of the door with a latch in the center. And the latch would engage this large long deadbolt in and out of a set of U brackets. The long deadbolt ran from the hinge side to the open side of the door. I have never seen these for sale anywhere.

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Hendrik

10-01-2013 01:02:06
193.30.192.187



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Wile E, 09-29-2013 12:15:16  
We call these "dievenklauwen".
Commercially available; easy to install.
HTH, Hendrik, from The Netherlands

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Stick welding

09-29-2013 21:36:19
96.53.210.246



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Wile E, 09-29-2013 12:15:16  
Talk to RB. The next time he demo's a bank, get the door to the safe. Just realize that you'll have to re-engineer your entire house to be able to support the door. If a thief wants in bad enough, they'll get in. Doesn't have to be through the front door or any door for that matter.



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Rich_WI

09-29-2013 13:05:47
50.50.82.205



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Wile E, 09-29-2013 12:15:16  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

It sounds like you want not only a commercial quality door, but one that is far higher security than anything that is standard even on the commercial level. There is nothing wrong with that mind you, its just it limits your options because its rare. Rare equals not alot of people sell what you are looking for.

What you want can be built though. As for the pry bar part, it would be very difficult and time consuming to pry an out swinging door open, even using common quality parts. Just try it, it aint easy. Heck, just pulling a concrete filled door frame out (using a chop saw to cut each side) takes a good 20 minutes. You are not going to open the door in less time than that, well I take that back, you can if you have a jaws-of-life. If a bad guy comes with a jaws-of-life and you are not home to stop him, he is in anyway. But thats all unlikely because there are much easier ways into your home, most notibly is just driving a hole in it with a car.

In any case, if you are shooting for a dead bolt that throws both ways in a heavy frame, your best bet would be to custom make one. You can get inspiration from the various survivial websites out there as well as how safes are built with multiple bolts. Some of survival guys build cobbled up messes but there are some real builders out there as well. Here is one website I have seen some cool things, Im sure there are others. http://www.survivalistboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=120

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Stick welding

09-29-2013 21:38:34
96.53.210.246



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 13:05:47  
He needs a door like Maxwell Smarts with multiple locks on both sides that opens opposite of what you think.



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dr sportster

09-29-2013 12:19:05
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Wile E, 09-29-2013 12:15:16  
These days there are portable sawzalls ,porta band saws . carbide blades . Almost any door can be entered if enougfh force is used. Confuscious say Man who collect many valuables should not be mad when valuables are stolen --somethin' like that.



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ss55

09-30-2013 07:00:26
173.19.101.220



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportster, 09-29-2013 12:19:05  
Some crooks have cut through wood framed garage walls next to a door rather than mess with with a security door.



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George Marsh

09-30-2013 18:14:44
50.127.9.225



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to ss55, 09-30-2013 07:00:26  
Windows are easier than cutting through a wall.

It's harder to kick a door in if the door swings outward.

People need to see just how easy it is to break off a dead bolt.

The only thing any security door do is give you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

A pitbull on the other side of the door work best.



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dr sportster

09-29-2013 10:36:00
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to gmccool, 09-29-2013 09:05:11  
EUTHENIC -- the word you have entered is not in the dictionary.



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Buzzman72

09-29-2013 16:51:52
74.138.185.198



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportster, 09-29-2013 10:36:00  
Euthenics / j uː ˈ θ ɛ n ˈ ɪ k s / is the study of the improvement of human functioning and well-being by improvement of living conditions.

Not sure how this term can apply to a group of individuals in your neighborhood, unless you live in a scientific or missionary enclave. Is the Peace Corps operating in your neighborhood?



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Rich_WI

09-29-2013 12:03:28
50.50.82.205



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportster, 09-29-2013 10:36:00  
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Ummmm..... yes.... it is. Do you need help finding it?



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dr sportster

09-29-2013 12:10:34
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:03:28  
UUUUUUMMMMM I'm waiting



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dr sportser

09-29-2013 12:08:45
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:03:28  
According to two on-line dictionary so far it is not a word . EUTHENIC'S is a word but no EUTHENIC



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dr sportser

09-29-2013 12:05:22
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:03:28  
Yes Just post the definintion.That would be fine.



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Rich_WI

09-29-2013 12:21:41
50.50.82.205



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportser, 09-29-2013 12:05:22  
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Are you telling me you dont know how to look up a word? Is that how low the education system has slipped? You do know, that if you type the word you dont know into google, it will auto correct spelling and point you to several online dictionaries, dont you?

First you say a word is not in the dictionary when it clearly is and then you want me to spoon feed you the info? Unbelievable..... My offer to help you find it was facetious. You can look that one up too when you look up EUTHENIC.

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dr sportser

09-29-2013 12:27:46
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:21:41  
Since you have insulted me and made a big deal about this I still stand EUTHENIC not a word . Google it I just did NOT A WORD [read that slowly] .



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Rich_WI

09-29-2013 12:40:01
50.50.82.205



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportser, 09-29-2013 12:27:46  
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I didnt insult you, you insulted yourself. You attacked gmccool over a word. Thats D!CK move and I understand that but you went all in and stated the word in not in the dictionary. It is. Different meaning, of course, but its still there. I just threw it back at you.

Then you go all in in a futile attempt at saving some of your diginity. Sorry.... FAIL. Leave the guy alone, he misspelled a word. A word NOBODY with 2 brain cells to rub together would EVER fail to understand given the context of what was said.

Now, would you like to continue with this?

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Stan in Oly, WA

09-29-2013 19:50:52
174.31.215.241



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:40:01  
Rich,

Using inductive reasoning I was able to determine that I probably have more than two brain cells to rub together (the autonomic nervous system cannot function with two or fewer brain cells; my autonomic nervous system seems to be functioning; therefore I probably have more than two brain cells to rub together), and yet I was puzzled by what word gmcool had in mind when he wrote "euthenic", and that was primarily because of the context. I thought of "ethnic", but even though the spelling was a stretch, the word ethnic made almost no sense in that sentence. Giving the man credit for knowing what he was talking about, I decided that he was using a word I was unfamiliar with, and that it made sense in that context, and that if I had known what it meant I would have understood what he was saying.

I suggest that instead of "two brain cells to rub together" being the benchmark for understanding, you should have said "a word which any idiot would understand..." It would be just as strong, and I could immediately agree with it.

Stan

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dr sportser

09-29-2013 12:25:05
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:21:41  
So what is the definition ? First the annoying UUUmmm comment then you can't even supply an answer.



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Rich_WI

09-29-2013 12:29:46
50.50.82.205



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportser, 09-29-2013 12:25:05  
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I just supplied you with the answer, please allow me to repeat it again.... "You do know, that if you type the word you dont know into google, it will auto correct spelling and point you to several online dictionaries, dont you?"

Now are you telling me that you did that and couldnt find it or you didnt do it and you are waiting for me to spoon feed you the results?

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dr sportster

09-29-2013 12:34:56
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to Rich_WI, 09-29-2013 12:29:46  
The word posted was EUTHENIC [which oh by the way is not a word in the english language]. NOT A WORD. What that saying about arguing with an idiot .
End of discussion.



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gmccool

09-29-2013 11:31:25
76.9.55.56



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to dr sportster, 09-29-2013 10:36:00  
Sorry Sportster I didn't proof read my comment nor did I use spell check. My comment was only intended to help someone resolve there problem. Gerald



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dr sportster

09-29-2013 16:50:02
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to gmccool, 09-29-2013 11:31:25  
I was just typing in what I found when I looked up the [non] word. Not trying to annoy you in any way. I'm guessing you meant ethnic. I thought everyone has some ethnic background so you meant soemthing else anyway because in any on- line dictionary it was not a word . Sorry if I insulted you in any way. I try to be helpful and give info not annoy people.



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dr sportster

09-29-2013 12:04:14
68.192.200.12



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 Re: steel entry doors with steel casement? in reply to gmccool, 09-29-2013 11:31:25  
Thats what i said when I looked it up because I never heard of that word.



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