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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: enviromental concerns ?

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09-28-2013 10:45:38

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Yes, they did rise according to data presented, some of which is suspect, but the temp rise leveled off about 12 years back we're now told. There are so many questions to ask it boggles the mind-

Has the way they took the temps and the areas where they took temps changed over the years? (You bet it has!)

Are there conflicting data that seem to refute some data presented supporting the climate rise notion? (Yes!)

Is the sun and the oceans the main controller of our climate? (Yes!)

If man is the cause, and the big rise took place over about 20-30 years, is there anything we can do that will affect the planets climate over the same time period? (No, no one has any answer to that question that they will even begin to back up.)

Is there a heck of a lot of politics and power involved in this argument? Are a lot of socialist/Marxist/anarchist radicals involved in the climate change industry? Is capitalism and the west ALWAYS presented as the main culprit in climate change and is the duty to change ALWAYS laid at the feet of the west, the US in particular? Have there been oodles of shifty eyed liars involved on both sides of the argument? (The answer to all those is YES!)

Since your mind is made up Mark, let me ask you- What workable solution to the issue do you propose that doesn't serve to punish the west, require monstrously expensive changes to our so called "modern life"- ie- electric power, heat in the winter, private transportation, a non-Amish or 3rd world existence, and which doesn't have as it's main mechanism a massive shift of power and wealth form the west to 2nd and 3rd world nations? I ask because the vast majority of answers that are offered revolve around those ideas.
BTW- I'm all for an end to urban growth, a cleaner, greener world and a sustainable paradigm for the future. I'd just like the ability to make the decisions for myself rather than having some UN tin pot dictator tell me to think green at the point of a rifle.

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09-28-2013 18:36:18

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to Bret4207, 09-28-2013 10:45:38  
Thank you, Bret. I won't bother repeat what I posted in response to LDJ, but I have a couple of other comments.

First, I like to think we can separate science from politics. You can disagree with the solutions put forth by politicians and still agree that there is a problem to be solved.

Second, you ask if I have a "workable" solution. I do not. But I do believe it's in our best long-term interest to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. That's for many reasons, not just global warming.

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09-30-2013 04:40:15

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-28-2013 18:36:18  
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Unfortunately politics is so completely ingrained in this subject that it's impossible to separate fact from politics. What we're talking about, IIRC, is 1/2 of 1 % of the CO2 in our atmosphere- that's allegedly the part man is responsible for according to several sites I looked at some years back. 98% of the "greenhouse gases" are water vapor and natural CO2 IIRC. Volcanoes, forest fires, etc. produce what man doesn't. And yet there's no sure fire way to simply stop it. Can't burn coal/gas/oil/wood, solar collectors in the desert create a micro climate that hurts the desert, windmills kill birds and "ruin" the landscape, can't have tidal generators or dams on rivers and of course nukes are just out of the question. So that leaves us where? For every alternative offered there are a mess of heavily funded groups ready to fight it to the death.
I don't know about you, but I get cold when it's 40 below and making the 45 mile trip to Super Wally World by horse back would really cut into my work time. I also like that whole running water and non-beeswax based light at night idea. So, since there's no alternative that anyone can agree on and since the gov and one mega-industry or another is going to make gazillions fighting or supporting whatever happens...I get a little jaded over cries of "global climate change". I get even more cynical when I hear people taking the moral high ground when they assume anyone not buying the schtick is some neanderthal that wants to dump toxic waste in the water and strip mine the world. Global climate change is a religion today, no more, no less. Religion and politics mixed up with heretofore unheard of power and wealth? Wow, that's never going to be something everyone agrees on!

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