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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: enviromental concerns ?

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09-28-2013 04:41:12

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But Mark, temps have been rising since before the industrial age even began. They rose and fell before that too. At the same time we we having a steady increase, polar ice caps on Mars were melting/receding. Now there's been no increase for over 10 years, various studies and data have been shown to have been manipulated to favor global warming, people have been caught lying and colluding, etc. And then there's the power and money involved. Yes, I DO believe there can be a fairly large money/power driven conspiracy, maybe even involving people with the best on intentions. If the Koch bros can have paid hacks, why can't the UN, NASA, NOAA and any organization?
In the end, I'm all for clean air and water,etc. I'm not for gutting the western economy, radically altering my lifestyle so I live in an efficiency apartment under the watchful eye of big brother every second. That seems to be the answer offered up by anyone involved in the global warming industry.

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09-28-2013 07:56:08

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to Bret4207, 09-28-2013 04:41:12  
Bret, I will ask you the same question I've asked three times previously, and to which no one has answered: Do you agree that global temperatures and CO2 levels have both risen precipitously in recent years? This is a very simple question, requiring only a yes/no answer.

Of course we ALL know what the answer is, but nobody wants to say it. Why? Because to answer that question is to step off the firm, comfortable ground of rhetoric and onto the slippery slopes of scientific enquiry. The Land of Science is not a comfortable place to be: every statement you make is subject to review, scorn and ridicule. Politicians and charlatans do not go there.

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09-28-2013 10:45:38

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-28-2013 07:56:08  
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Yes, they did rise according to data presented, some of which is suspect, but the temp rise leveled off about 12 years back we're now told. There are so many questions to ask it boggles the mind-

Has the way they took the temps and the areas where they took temps changed over the years? (You bet it has!)

Are there conflicting data that seem to refute some data presented supporting the climate rise notion? (Yes!)

Is the sun and the oceans the main controller of our climate? (Yes!)

If man is the cause, and the big rise took place over about 20-30 years, is there anything we can do that will affect the planets climate over the same time period? (No, no one has any answer to that question that they will even begin to back up.)

Is there a heck of a lot of politics and power involved in this argument? Are a lot of socialist/Marxist/anarchist radicals involved in the climate change industry? Is capitalism and the west ALWAYS presented as the main culprit in climate change and is the duty to change ALWAYS laid at the feet of the west, the US in particular? Have there been oodles of shifty eyed liars involved on both sides of the argument? (The answer to all those is YES!)

Since your mind is made up Mark, let me ask you- What workable solution to the issue do you propose that doesn't serve to punish the west, require monstrously expensive changes to our so called "modern life"- ie- electric power, heat in the winter, private transportation, a non-Amish or 3rd world existence, and which doesn't have as it's main mechanism a massive shift of power and wealth form the west to 2nd and 3rd world nations? I ask because the vast majority of answers that are offered revolve around those ideas.
BTW- I'm all for an end to urban growth, a cleaner, greener world and a sustainable paradigm for the future. I'd just like the ability to make the decisions for myself rather than having some UN tin pot dictator tell me to think green at the point of a rifle.

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09-28-2013 18:36:18

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to Bret4207, 09-28-2013 10:45:38  
Thank you, Bret. I won't bother repeat what I posted in response to LDJ, but I have a couple of other comments.

First, I like to think we can separate science from politics. You can disagree with the solutions put forth by politicians and still agree that there is a problem to be solved.

Second, you ask if I have a "workable" solution. I do not. But I do believe it's in our best long-term interest to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. That's for many reasons, not just global warming.

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09-30-2013 04:40:15

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-28-2013 18:36:18  
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Unfortunately politics is so completely ingrained in this subject that it's impossible to separate fact from politics. What we're talking about, IIRC, is 1/2 of 1 % of the CO2 in our atmosphere- that's allegedly the part man is responsible for according to several sites I looked at some years back. 98% of the "greenhouse gases" are water vapor and natural CO2 IIRC. Volcanoes, forest fires, etc. produce what man doesn't. And yet there's no sure fire way to simply stop it. Can't burn coal/gas/oil/wood, solar collectors in the desert create a micro climate that hurts the desert, windmills kill birds and "ruin" the landscape, can't have tidal generators or dams on rivers and of course nukes are just out of the question. So that leaves us where? For every alternative offered there are a mess of heavily funded groups ready to fight it to the death.
I don't know about you, but I get cold when it's 40 below and making the 45 mile trip to Super Wally World by horse back would really cut into my work time. I also like that whole running water and non-beeswax based light at night idea. So, since there's no alternative that anyone can agree on and since the gov and one mega-industry or another is going to make gazillions fighting or supporting whatever happens...I get a little jaded over cries of "global climate change". I get even more cynical when I hear people taking the moral high ground when they assume anyone not buying the schtick is some neanderthal that wants to dump toxic waste in the water and strip mine the world. Global climate change is a religion today, no more, no less. Religion and politics mixed up with heretofore unheard of power and wealth? Wow, that's never going to be something everyone agrees on!

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09-28-2013 08:11:20

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-28-2013 07:56:08  
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If he won't answer it I will. YES they have risen. That doesn't mean man has caused it. As I posted earlier man didn't cause the temp to rise and ice recede during the last ice age.
Encase you don't remember, I do and will remind or tell you, that back during the 70's all the gloom and doom people were talking about we were headed fro another ice age.

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09-28-2013 18:29:27

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to ldj, 09-28-2013 08:11:20  
Thanks, LDJ. That's a step in the right direction. If we can accept a common starting point, then we can move on to things that are actually up for debate:

What's causing global temperatures and CO2 levels to rise? Are they related?

What will be the effects if these trends continue?

Is there anything we can do to stop and even reverse trend?

To be sure, nobody can be absolutely sure what's causing temperatures to rise. Scientists suspect it's caused by greenhouse gases, but there could be some other cause. Nobody has proposed an plausible alternative cause, though, so that leaves CO2 and other greenhouse gases as the most likely culprit.

As for rising CO2 levels, does anybody really believe it is not caused by burning fossil fuels?

I sincerely hope the most alarmist predictions of the effects of global warning don't come true. But even if they don't, it's reasonable to assume a warmer earth will be a quite different earth than we have today.

Can we avoid catastrophe? I don't know. There's no doubt that reducing carbon emissions will cost a lot of money. Even if we do, it could well be too little and too late.

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T in NE

09-29-2013 10:00:04

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 Re: enviromental concerns ? in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-28-2013 18:29:27  
Rising CO2 levels won't be double what they were before the industrial revolution until after 2050. But it still won't be what it has been at different points in history.

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