enviromental concerns ?

Wile E

Well-known Member
I am one those guys that does NOT believe in Global warming or Climate change or whatever.
I just cannot swallow all the hype and misinformation.
But.....My dad, who is 74 now is trying to get me to believe the global warming stuff and has even sent me a couple of emails with videos of (expert scientists) explaining it.
I basically told him I thought it was all BS and besides there is nothing I am going to do about it anyway, I still have to DRIVE to work and use my HEAT for the house and all that crap.
I am still glad that my dad is in decent health but I do not want to pizz him off to bad and throw him into a Heart attack. So.....
What do you guys think? Is the global warming thing a farce or real?
 
Why are other countries - especially China- building coal fired generating plants with little or no emissions concerns while we're putting ours out of business?
 
Yes, global warming and climate change are happening! You can't drive down a freeway in Los Angeles and tell me that all the fuel we are burning is not affecting our environment. You have to look beyond your backyard. The polar ice caps are the best example.
 
I just googled "polar ice caps". I read that the Antarctic ice cap set an all time record size on Sept. 14, 2013 of 19.5123 sq. km. At the other pole, the Artic cap on Sept. 15, 2013 was approx. 1 million sq. miles larger than Sept. 2012.
 
You must use a different google than I do!
Climate

Polar ice sheets melting faster than ever

The polar ice caps have melted faster in last 20 years than in the last 10,000. A comprehensive satellite study confirms that the melting ice caps are raising sea levels at an accelerating rate.
 
Hey! You guys can't talk facts on ice cap growing! That is counter to the global warming crowd, Al, BO, carbon tax, and the desire to drive the USA into the ground. However, yes, we experience climate change & have for billions of years, even in the last 200,000 that man has observed. Wahoo!
 
EPA is setting an example for the World at the expense of the middle class American. But, guess what, the rest of the World doesn't care.

EPA is GREAT for big business, pass the expense on to the consumer and a little that the average citizen won't notice.
 
Obviously, any pollution is bad. What gets me is how the U.S. is working to reduce theirs the rest of the world, china, Russia, etc are spewing stuff out like the 1800's and no one raises heck. Russia ruined the Siberian arctic with radiation, china's rivers can burn and be walked on from pollution. Yet the world media stands quiet.
 
It is the biggest hoax ever played on the public. You can listen to the "scientists" or you can read the facts. The polar ice cap got bigger over the last year. How did that happen? If CO2 was really the problem, we should all stop breathing. That is what we exhale. The "experts" can't conceded that their computer models were wrong. Same old story about computers--Garbage in = Garbage out.

I remember when the "experts" said we were going into a mini ice age back in the seventies. Time magazine even had it on their cover. Still waiting for that to happen.

The liberals and the media are still trying to make us believe O'Bammy is the one.

The whole hoax is designed to take money from us(carbon tax) and give it to themselves. Ole Al Gore has gotten rich by lying.

Just keep drinking the koolaid. Maybe you would like some soulent green with that.
 
Is the global warming thing a farce or real?

Who knows? None of us are smart enough or have the means to determine if it's real. What can we do about it? Absolutely nothing. Simple answer - it's a political football. I did as the other poster said and googled polar ice caps. A quick scan found one article that said farce. Another article said real. Money talks. Big deal! I'm gonna go back outside and dig some more sweet potatoes.
 
Interesting article in the Seattle Times a couple of months ago about the Willipa Bay oyster situation. And before you say its just propaganda by some abundant rag, I know Dave Nisbet, and he's as conservative as most farmers- but "facts is facts."

Same thing is happening to the King Crab industry in the Bering Sea.

Have never understood how intelligent people can assume we can continue to increase the population of the earth, seemingly without limit, without some consequences.
Willipa oysters
 
I think they have changed from Global warming to Climate change. Do figures lie or do liers figure? I'm not a rocket scientest. I am 64 years old and can't remember having 4 dry summers in a row in W centeral, In. Very wet spring and only 2 inches of rain in the past 2 months.

Some people have floods. The rain drys up by the time it gets to In.

Come on, spread the rain around a little.

I can remember as a kid in N. In, the winters were so cold, the river froze and the cows walked across it. Before refrigerators, people cut ice out the the river for summer use. They would be out of business today, no ice.

I can't remember the last time the river froze over. We used to have lots of spring floods because the ice jamed up the river when the snow melted. I can remember actual temps of
-25. Last few winters lucky if the ground froze an inch or two.

NO THERE ISN'T SUCH A THING AS CLIMATE CHANGE.
 
I sure don"t have any answers, but there will be some new information coming soon. The global warming scientist"s are working on papers to explain why the warming has been flat lined for the last 15 years. Supposedly no one can explain it yet?
 
I agree with Mike on the population problem. My maternal side of the family came here from Germany in 1717. Eberhart, my 11th Great Grandfather, had eleven kids. There is a genology website for our family, listing over 18,000 family members now.
 
When I was a kid we skated on a pond with a measured 7" thickness. DPW drove tractors on it to plow the snow. Now the same pond does not even freeze. Ice fisherman [teenagers moslty] are falling through lake ice and drowning. { no I did not watch Al Gores stupid movie} . Something got warmer.
 
I will buy into the climate change idea to a point.
We only know what we read. Form that we must believe or not. It's up to you to decide.
 
It just makes sense to me that everything that we put in the air and in the water has an impact. Higher concentrations are noticable. Ever been to LA and seen the air quality out there?

Yes, I am one of the worst offenders because I own a foundry and we make investment castings. Our emissions are miniscule compared to what most people associate with the word "foundry" but we use lots of energy. Energy = C02

I am wondering about your question however, you don't want to give dad a heart attack by disagreeing with him but you seem to be looking for supporting opinions to do so.

Just let him think what he wants. It's easier and wiser than thinking that you have to be right. Learned this from my wife of 33 years.
 
I sure don't believe in global warming. Climate change..... Well, sure the climate is always changing. Where I'm sitting typing this, there were glaciers 12,000 years ago. That was one extreme, and before man was here to mess it up/alter it and they left long before man could've caused there demise. I always use newton's law of physics "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". Basically, if we mess it up, Mother Nature will straighten it out. So in closing, yes, climate does change, always has and always will. Just how much influence mankind has on it remains to be seen. I don't think we affect it as much as some folks think.
 
Old timers said that the summer of 1936 was the hottest ever. We may have global warming - but it we do, we're not doing the right things to stop it.

My theory is there has been global warming before, otherwise we'd still be covered in glaciers - and then we had global cooling in cycles. I think that mostly we're in a cycle that mother nature will find a way to correct and/or adjust to.
 
The environmental/global warming nonsense is little more than a pagan religion revitalized by proven fraud Rachael Carson's 1962 book Silent Spring.

It has, however, proven to be a very useful money maker for governments and some individuals.

Dean
 
It seems that we have a lot of experts who have the answers and can argue a with other experts but have trouble putting a battery in a tractor correctly. I can install a battery and that does not make me an expert
 
I wrote a term paper on global warming once. Really didn't prove anything either way, BUT:

At least once in the past, the average temp on Earth was some 14 degrees warmer than it is now. And scientists are freaked out because it warmed a degree or so in the last century.

Then, take the Earth as a whole, subtract the 71% that is under water. Subtract the polar regions, subtract the uninhabited/uninhabitable areas, subtract the undeveloped countries that produce no emissions, subtract the agricultural areas, and subtract the wilderness ares. (The U.S. is 38% wilderness).

The area you have left where man MAY engage in activities that can affect climate and global temperature is really quite small.
 
It's all crap, generated by government "scientists", to tax you more, so government can hire more "scientists", who all march in lock step, with funny little broken crosses on their armbands!
 
No one is really sure, you just have to have faith and believe it or not. You should respect his opinion, and hope he respects yours.
 
Please clarify: What part of global warming do you not believe?

Do you not believe that the earth's temperature has been rising since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and that rise has accelerated in recent years? Sorry, but the temperature rise is well documented from a variety of sources, everything from observations made by British naval vessels to modern meteorological observations. And those observations are backed up by other evidence, such as the shrinking polar ice caps, rising sea level and receding glaciers. <a href="http://climate.nasa.gov/interactives/warming_world">http://climate.nasa.gov/interactives/warming_world</a>

Now it could just be coincidental that nine out to the ten hottest years ever recorded are in the past fifteen years. Or maybe not.

Or do you disagree that carbon dioxide levels are rising? That's something that hasn't been monitored for nearly as long as temperature, but CO2 levels have been monitored on Mauna Loa since the late 1950s and during that time CO2 in the atmosphere has grown at an alarming rate. <a href="http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/">http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/</a>

Now if you dispute whether or not these two trends are connected, we can talk. If you want to dispute whether global warming and CO2 levels are man-made, we can talk. If you don't believe the dire predictions made about the long-term effects of global warming, that's something we can discuss as well. But if you're unwilling to accept these two basic facts, then there's really nothing to discuss, because you're in complete denial.

For what it's worth, you don't need to worry whether it's real, because you'll be dead long before the long-term effects really hit home. It will be our grandchildren's problem. Sucks to be them, doesn't it?
 
You mean the polar ice caps that are increasing in size? We have many places with ice a hundred feet high, where there was no ice in the 1930"s, I am beginning to worry a bit when I see how easily people are duped into believing these scams.
 
Actually, I believe that the long term trend in global temperatures has been upward since the beginning of the end of the last ice age. There are, of course, shorter term cycles on the longer term trend(s).

I also believe that there have been countless periods in Earth's past when global temperatures have been higher than now.

I further believe that mankind has far more to fear from the inevitable next ice age than any man-caused global warming that some people believe is possible.

Dean
 
You must be doing something wrong the increase in arctic ice is quite real. If you sit back and look at the big picture these global warming folks are living in a cult, they never question the cult leaders when the "science" doesn't match up with the facts.
 
(quoted from post at 23:22:49 09/25/13) The environmental/global warming nonsense is little more than a pagan religion revitalized by proven fraud Rachael Carson's 1962 book Silent Spring.

[b:783ae5f46f]It has, however, proven to be a very useful money maker for governments and some individuals.[/b:783ae5f46f]

Dean
Several years ago before the global warming crowd changed to the climate change crowd, someone that was heavily involved in trying to put more restrictions on the US admitted the real focus was on redistribution of wealth. Basically they wanted to take money from the US and give to less affluent countries.
 
Mark I will argue with the data they are throwing about as "FACTS". They have cooked the books to get the fact to match what they want. The simple FACT is that it has been hotter in the past. The "ten hottest years ever recorded" is only looking at about 100 years of records.

Read the history of Greenland. It was much warmer there when the Vikings settled it. They farmed ground there.

I can also remember them SCREAMING at me in the 1970s that the cool years then meant that we where heading into another ICE AGE.

I do think that the whole thing is greed driven by the Greeny weenies that make money off of screaming that the world is going to end. Good old Al Gore is the biggest example of that.

Also the "tree ring" data has been proven false. The researcher had to exclude many sites because they made his numbers not get hotter like he want them to.

You can not look at such short periods of time and predict what is going on. They can't even predict the weather 3 weeks from now but they want us to believe them on Global Warming. It all is a joke that is making many people MILLIONS of dollars while costing the average working stiff money.
 
Human population and the nonsense that is man-made global warming are two entirely different subjects.

Dean
 
I have a copy of either Science and Mechanics magazine, or Popular Mechanics.....circa maybe December 1970......it"s in the basement stash, and I"m not gonna dig it out now, but it warns of the "Imminent Ice Age".....showing NYC skyscrapers, covered in ice. Yes, we have changing temperatures, for not just decades, but Millenniums.....up, down, sideways. It"s been going on forever. Much of MN was created by glaciers, sliding over the land, leaving lakes....11,007 of them, and good productive clay soil..and everything in between.....etc...ad nauseum. Just how this world has developed. Have people influenced this world? Of course, but are we destroying it?
World temp changes have been going on for millenniums.
 
ok, for the purists...it might be a 1968 issue! whatever! Just in case someone wants to check my stash!!!
 
JD, who is this "they" to whom you refer? NASA, the folks who got a man on the moon? Or NOAA? What motivation do they have to "cook the books"? Fact is, even those few climatologists who dispute the dangers of global warming don't disagree with the basic observations that CO2 levels and temperatures are rising.

You might want to check into who is the "they" on the other side of this issue. Who funds the various climate change skeptics? We can start with the Koch brothers, whose fortunes came and continue to come from coal production. Don't you think the Kochs have a lot more to lose than NASA and NOAA? By the way, even the Kochs are having problems with their paid hacks jumping ship; see the link below.
Koch funded skeptic admits global warming is real
 
Gordo, that's a popular story, but it happens to not be true. The primary greenhouse gas is carbon dioxide, and the amount of CO2 produced by volcanoes, although significant, is dwarfed by man-made sources.

I DID do the research, and all the creditable sources agree. Here's an article from the US Geological Survey; they probably collectively know more about volcanoes than anyone else on the planet.
Volcanoes and climate change
 
The overall global temperature has been cooling for the last ten years. (a small fact this weeks report left out) There is no real scientific data showing global warming. The scientist are and have been using computer models to show their so called facts. The data entered to get the so called global warming facts are what they think not what they collect from instruments or slides. When checking where their thinking comes from, check where they get the money to keep their paychecks and lab money coming. Follow the money and the company they keep. Then think affordable health care.
 
I didn't read all the posts, but the climate changes naturally. It's all a giant money and power grab. Man can alter the climate to an extent, but the sun and oceans have the final say.
 
Here's my take on "global warming"

Most of the world was once covered in a layer of ice. I'm glad it warmed up ! The earth will do what it wants to do it has been evolving for millions of years.
Also there has to be limits on how much mankind pollutes. I sure don't want to go back to when the rivers in Ohio were on fire !
Manufacturing has mostly moved to China. I did see on the news awhile back about how they are now overpolluting over there. Just wonder how long before their rivers can catch on fire ?
 
So we should just go back to our smoke-belching cars/trucks/tractors, and throw our garbage on the ground, and dump our used motor oil down the toilet, right?
 
I have read the posts below.

Somehow, I managed to miss the posts advocating as you state.

Dean
 
What about this?

(quoted from post at 17:40:20 09/25/13) It's all crap, generated by government "scientists", to tax you more, so government can hire more "scientists", who all march in lock step, with funny little broken crosses on their armbands!

"It's all crap" pretty clearly states to me that he thinks nothing we've done in the last 25-30 years to clean up around here has meant anything, and that we should just go back to how we did things in the 1950's.
 
(quoted from post at 05:57:46 09/26/13) So we should just go back to our smoke-belching cars/trucks/tractors, and throw our garbage on the ground, and dump our used motor oil down the toilet, right?

I didn't see anyone advocating for that. And lets remember that clean air/water/lands, pollution so to speak, has little if anything to do with climate change. CO2 emissions are supposed to be the culprit and even that is up for questioning since not all the evidence seems to support it. Was is clearly supported is that who ever ends up in control of "climate change" will have previously unheard of power and wealth.
 
I bought a new Dodge in 07 with a 6.7 with all the polution crap.It would get 9 mile to the gallon loaded and 13 to 14 empty.with several turbo cleanings and two turbo's replaced and one after burner replaced at 10 k.At 75000 miles I removed all the exhaust from turbo back replaced with 5 inch and removed all the emmision junk [about a banana box full] and added a tuner.truck now gets 13 to 15 loaded and 21 to 23 empty.NOW the question it takes 12,000 gallons of air to burn a gallon of diesel fuel if I put that out over 21 miles versa 13 miles how can I be putting out more polution?figure the ratio.
 
Well now, I think most of the sources you refer to are government agencies.

You don't think that some of the 'facts' might be rearranged to suit political agendas?

The stated goal of NASA a few years ago was to 'highlight' nnalert science achievements.

The IRS has been used to target political opponents recently.

The EPA has been used to target business i.e. the coal industry.

The NSA seems to do wonderful work spying on US citizens but misses the ball on catching real terrorists i.e. Boston bomber, Naval base shooting, Fort Hood murders with the shooter yelling allah ackbar (but it was just workplace violence).

Man made global warming is nothing about the environment and all about power and control.

In the 70's the farce was global cooling caused by the same so-called causes.

You should update your talking points as the polar ice caps have increased by 60%, closing the northwest passage to shipping.


brad
 
One time there was ice covering most of what is now USA. We had global warming then or else the ice would still be here. Humans didn't cause it then.
 
(quoted from post at 12:10:50 09/26/13) Being that the USA is merely a pinpoint on the global map; about all we can do is apply the proper tax..

???????I don't understand your RE:
 
I do not think the results of 2 published articles is enough evidence to confirm your position. When you can publish 15 to 25 studies, then maybe you can come to a rational conclusion.
A wider base of data might either confirm or deny the hypothesis.
 
Wow you are an expert in this subject.

I still cannot worry about global climate change, hotter temps, colder temps, whatever.
I cannot do anything about it or do I really care.

Now with that said I need to run my tractor.
 
If you want to stop the deadly carbon dioxide just everyone stop breathing. Your breath is killing out planet. If you curb the deadly carbon dioxide gas that so many seem to fear so much then the trees will all die.
 
(quoted from post at 08:25:42 09/26/13) What about this?

(quoted from post at 17:40:20 09/25/13) It's all crap, generated by government "scientists", to tax you more, so government can hire more "scientists", who all march in lock step, with funny little broken crosses on their armbands!

"It's all crap" pretty clearly states to me that he thinks nothing we've done in the last 25-30 years to clean up around here has meant anything, and that we should just go back to how we did things in the 1950's.

I read Daves post and I didnt come to the same conclusion you did. I would also say, I dont see how any reasonable, rational or sane person could ever come to the conclusion you stated.
 
Cas, did you even bother to click on the two links I provided? Your mind is made up; I could post a hundred links and you would still be unconvinced.
 
No, I'm no expert. But I'm willing to trust the knowledge of those who work in the field. If my doctor tells me I have a tumor, I'm not going to call into an AM talk radio show to get a second opinion.

I'll note for the record you did not answer my question. Perhaps you don't actually know what it is you believe.
 
Brad, if you're unwilling to believe NASA and NOAA, then who will you believe? Surely not the Koch brothers' paid hacks. Are you suggesting that the scientists at NASA and NOAA are part of a vast conspiracy that goes back at least to 1958, when CO2 monitoring on Mauna Loa began? Since then we've had ten administrations, six repub and four dem, so both parties are in on the conspiracy.

As for the recent increase in polar ice, that is one data point. It's remarkable only because it bucks the long-term trend of rapid ice loss. While climatologists are trying to understand what it means, global warming deniers are busy touting it as proof of their argument. Why? Because they have so little evidence to support their claims.

As I said before, if you're unwilling to accept even the basic facts (rising temperature and CO2 levels), there's nothing much we can discuss. Much like the drunk standing beside his crashed car saying "What tree, Mister Ossifer?". The cop would like to know WHY he ran into the tree, but the drunk is denying the tree exists, even though it's sitting where the hood of his car used to be.
 
Mark, do you even look at this thing called the news? Couple of years ago the big wig climatologist in England got caught red handed lying about global warming. Then again about 2 or 3 weeks ago they were caught placing thermometers in places likely to be several degrees warmer than the average for an area. And then just the other day they were yet again caught fudging the numbers. And I'm supposed to believe them? I'm supposed to believe NASA who's budget has been slashed when they are trying to get the current administration to give them more? The same administration that been pushing global warming/climate change? Gee that's not too hard to figure out. I want more money for space research and the folks with control of the senate and the Oval Office want evidence of climate change? HMMMM should I lie for the money or tell the truth and get even less?

OK there is pollution. Guess what? If you really research it, the air pollution problem in CA is not eternal combustion engines. It's factory emissions. Factories in CA put out well over 50% of your air pollution. Why doesn't the state of CA address this you may ask. Most of the offenders are smaller companies that can't afford the scrubber needed to clean them up. Forcing them to buy them would put a bunch out of business. That would mean workers without a job, millions of them if they close most of the small manufacturing plants in CA. That would cause CA to go over the edge. News about CA would read like news about Detroit.

Mark, you cannot make a decision on things like this without looking at all the sources and their actions. Good ole Al Gore made millions on carbon credits external_link's first year in office. If I remembered correctly something like 7.5 mil in his pocket. At the time Gore ran against Bush the Bush TX home had solar panels, geothermal heat/cooling and many other expensive environmentally friendly features, Al Gores multiple homes had none.

Rick
 
Tanker, I've said it twice before in this thread, and I'll say it once again: If we can't agree on the basic facts of this issue, that is, that temperatures and CO2 levels are rising, then we can't have much of a discussion. Never mind the source of your information, do you dispute that global temperatures and CO2 levels are rising? If so, I might as well be speaking ancient Sumerian because we ain't gonna connect. If not, then let's discuss further.
 
But Mark, temps have been rising since before the industrial age even began. They rose and fell before that too. At the same time we we having a steady increase, polar ice caps on Mars were melting/receding. Now there's been no increase for over 10 years, various studies and data have been shown to have been manipulated to favor global warming, people have been caught lying and colluding, etc. And then there's the power and money involved. Yes, I DO believe there can be a fairly large money/power driven conspiracy, maybe even involving people with the best on intentions. If the Koch bros can have paid hacks, why can't the UN, NASA, NOAA and any organization?

In the end, I'm all for clean air and water,etc. I'm not for gutting the western economy, radically altering my lifestyle so I live in an efficiency apartment under the watchful eye of big brother every second. That seems to be the answer offered up by anyone involved in the global warming industry.
 
Bret, I will ask you the same question I've asked three times previously, and to which no one has answered: Do you agree that global temperatures and CO2 levels have both risen precipitously in recent years? This is a very simple question, requiring only a yes/no answer.

Of course we ALL know what the answer is, but nobody wants to say it. Why? Because to answer that question is to step off the firm, comfortable ground of rhetoric and onto the slippery slopes of scientific enquiry. The Land of Science is not a comfortable place to be: every statement you make is subject to review, scorn and ridicule. Politicians and charlatans do not go there.
 
(quoted from post at 09:56:08 09/28/13) Bret, I will ask you the same question I've asked three times previously, and to which no one has answered: Do you agree that global temperatures and CO2 levels have both risen precipitously in recent years? This is a very simple question, requiring only a yes/no answer.

Of course we ALL know what the answer is, but nobody wants to say it. Why? Because to answer that question is to step off the firm, comfortable ground of rhetoric and onto the slippery slopes of scientific enquiry. The Land of Science is not a comfortable place to be: every statement you make is subject to review, scorn and ridicule. Politicians and charlatans do not go there.

If he won't answer it I will. YES they have risen. That doesn't mean man has caused it. As I posted earlier man didn't cause the temp to rise and ice recede during the last ice age.
Encase you don't remember, I do and will remind or tell you, that back during the 70's all the gloom and doom people were talking about we were headed fro another ice age.
 
(quoted from post at 07:56:08 09/28/13) Bret, I will ask you the same question I've asked three times previously, and to which no one has answered: Do you agree that global temperatures and CO2 levels have both risen precipitously in recent years? This is a very simple question, requiring only a yes/no answer.

Of course we ALL know what the answer is, but nobody wants to say it. Why? Because to answer that question is to step off the firm, comfortable ground of rhetoric and onto the slippery slopes of scientific enquiry. The Land of Science is not a comfortable place to be: every statement you make is subject to review, scorn and ridicule. Politicians and charlatans do not go there.

Yes, they did rise according to data presented, some of which is suspect, but the temp rise leveled off about 12 years back we're now told. There are so many questions to ask it boggles the mind-

Has the way they took the temps and the areas where they took temps changed over the years? (You bet it has!)

Are there conflicting data that seem to refute some data presented supporting the climate rise notion? (Yes!)

Is the sun and the oceans the main controller of our climate? (Yes!)

If man is the cause, and the big rise took place over about 20-30 years, is there anything we can do that will affect the planets climate over the same time period? (No, no one has any answer to that question that they will even begin to back up.)

Is there a heck of a lot of politics and power involved in this argument? Are a lot of socialist/Marxist/anarchist radicals involved in the climate change industry? Is capitalism and the west ALWAYS presented as the main culprit in climate change and is the duty to change ALWAYS laid at the feet of the west, the US in particular? Have there been oodles of shifty eyed liars involved on both sides of the argument? (The answer to all those is YES!)

Since your mind is made up Mark, let me ask you- What workable solution to the issue do you propose that doesn't serve to punish the west, require monstrously expensive changes to our so called "modern life"- ie- electric power, heat in the winter, private transportation, a non-Amish or 3rd world existence, and which doesn't have as it's main mechanism a massive shift of power and wealth form the west to 2nd and 3rd world nations? I ask because the vast majority of answers that are offered revolve around those ideas.

BTW- I'm all for an end to urban growth, a cleaner, greener world and a sustainable paradigm for the future. I'd just like the ability to make the decisions for myself rather than having some UN tin pot dictator tell me to think green at the point of a rifle.
 
Gotta ask 4 questions.
Is global warming happening?
Is it caused by human activity?
Is it a bad thing or a good thing?
Can we do anything about it?
 
Thanks, LDJ. That's a step in the right direction. If we can accept a common starting point, then we can move on to things that are actually up for debate:

What's causing global temperatures and CO2 levels to rise? Are they related?

What will be the effects if these trends continue?

Is there anything we can do to stop and even reverse trend?

To be sure, nobody can be absolutely sure what's causing temperatures to rise. Scientists suspect it's caused by greenhouse gases, but there could be some other cause. Nobody has proposed an plausible alternative cause, though, so that leaves CO2 and other greenhouse gases as the most likely culprit.

As for rising CO2 levels, does anybody really believe it is not caused by burning fossil fuels?

I sincerely hope the most alarmist predictions of the effects of global warning don't come true. But even if they don't, it's reasonable to assume a warmer earth will be a quite different earth than we have today.

Can we avoid catastrophe? I don't know. There's no doubt that reducing carbon emissions will cost a lot of money. Even if we do, it could well be too little and too late.
 
Thank you, Bret. I won't bother repeat what I posted in response to LDJ, but I have a couple of other comments.

First, I like to think we can separate science from politics. You can disagree with the solutions put forth by politicians and still agree that there is a problem to be solved.

Second, you ask if I have a "workable" solution. I do not. But I do believe it's in our best long-term interest to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. That's for many reasons, not just global warming.
 
I'm not too concerned about it. It's one of those things that's so far outside my control that there's nothing I can do about it.

Our politicians want to make us scared of it so they can "fix" it. Fixing it takes money so of course they need to tax us some more.

For instance our President has decided that coal is evil so is going to shut down the coal industry. "Utility bills will necessarily skyrocket?" Do you recall that speech? Of course they tax our utility bills so more $ to the gov.

The real problem is overpopulation by humans of the planet. I suspect our kids will have far bigger problems to tend with than global warming.
 
Rising CO2 levels won't be double what they were before the industrial revolution until after 2050. But it still won't be what it has been at different points in history.
 
I've read where we are on a 500 year solar cycle. And with the sun affecting our weather, and weather records have only been kept for 150 years. Who can say what the weather will be? Or has been?
 
(quoted from post at 18:36:18 09/28/13) Thank you, Bret. I won't bother repeat what I posted in response to LDJ, but I have a couple of other comments.

First, I like to think we can separate science from politics. You can disagree with the solutions put forth by politicians and still agree that there is a problem to be solved.

Second, you ask if I have a "workable" solution. I do not. But I do believe it's in our best long-term interest to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. That's for many reasons, not just global warming.

Unfortunately politics is so completely ingrained in this subject that it's impossible to separate fact from politics. What we're talking about, IIRC, is 1/2 of 1 % of the CO2 in our atmosphere- that's allegedly the part man is responsible for according to several sites I looked at some years back. 98% of the "greenhouse gases" are water vapor and natural CO2 IIRC. Volcanoes, forest fires, etc. produce what man doesn't. And yet there's no sure fire way to simply stop it. Can't burn coal/gas/oil/wood, solar collectors in the desert create a micro climate that hurts the desert, windmills kill birds and "ruin" the landscape, can't have tidal generators or dams on rivers and of course nukes are just out of the question. So that leaves us where? For every alternative offered there are a mess of heavily funded groups ready to fight it to the death.

I don't know about you, but I get cold when it's 40 below and making the 45 mile trip to Super Wally World by horse back would really cut into my work time. I also like that whole running water and non-beeswax based light at night idea. So, since there's no alternative that anyone can agree on and since the gov and one mega-industry or another is going to make gazillions fighting or supporting whatever happens...I get a little jaded over cries of "global climate change". I get even more cynical when I hear people taking the moral high ground when they assume anyone not buying the schtick is some neanderthal that wants to dump toxic waste in the water and strip mine the world. Global climate change is a religion today, no more, no less. Religion and politics mixed up with heretofore unheard of power and wealth? Wow, that's never going to be something everyone agrees on!
 
They don't give our government grants to those who say climate change is not happening. The government is getting what they paying for.
 

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