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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: electrical question

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Author  [Modern View]
dr sportster

07-24-2013 13:53:33
68.196.138.205



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Because a rod driven into soil, in a fault situation ,with no path for the fault to travel back to the panel the feed is from ,can't always operate the breaker. Now the circuit dumps amerage into the soil in the out building area. This can possibly kill a child playing on the soil or a dog laying there. I can't say I can remember an NEC where it was okay to only have a ground rod . The soil is not a grounding path and a ground rod is only supplemental according to the code. There is an article number which states soil can't be the only path and it is quite an older article [ although I don't have the article number].

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Samuels68

07-24-2013 15:18:32
173.215.11.170



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 Re: electrical question in reply to dr sportster, 07-24-2013 13:53:33  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Sportster,
Your recollection made me curious of my own recollection, or possible lack thereof, so when I got home I dug out my old 2002 NEC...

Here is what I came up with in Article250.32(B)2 Covering "Two or more buildings or structures supplied from a common service"

(2)Grounded Conductor. Where (1) an equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or strucrue, (2) there are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in both buildings or structures involved, and (3) ground-fault procetion of equipment has no been installed on the common ac service, the grounded circuit conductor run with the supply to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The size fo the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of (1) That required by 220.00 (2)That required by 250.122

I couldn't find my 2005 code book to see if that paragraph was still worded that way then, but in the 2008 NEC that same paragraph was reworded and highlighted indicating a change had been made in that code cycle.

Also in 2002 NEC in 250.4(A)5 is the statement that "The earth shall not be used as the sole equipment grounding conductor or ground-fault current path (exactly as you remember per your post)

Clear as River-bottom mud right? lol :D
Thanks for stimulating my brain for the day!

Work safe!

Jess

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John T

07-25-2013 06:13:03
216.249.76.176



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 Re: electrical question in reply to Samuels68, 07-24-2013 15:18:32  
Thats how it was done prior to NEC changes when you only ran 3 wires, 2 Hots and the Neutral, similar to the twisted triplex from the utility to the home. Of course, now you run 4, 2 Hots, Neutral, Ground for 120/240.

John T



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dr sportster

07-24-2013 18:43:43
68.196.138.205



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 Re: electrical question in reply to Samuels68, 07-24-2013 15:18:32  
250.4 [A] [5] Electrical raceways,cables,enclosures equipment and other conductive material likely to become energized must be installed in a manner that creates a low -impedance path to facilitate the operation of the circuit overcurrent device or ground detector for high impedance systems Earth not an effective ground path Danger earth does not clear a ground fault. Grounding metal parts to earth does not assist in removing dangerous voltage from ground faults. Bonding electrically conductive materials to each other and to the SUPPLY SOURCE establishes an effective ground fault path.To quickly remove fault current ground path must have low impedence. NOTE comments not in NEC are by Joseph McPartland . I was taught all grounding is to be "targeted: to the main panel. myself.No rods at other buildings. Sorry for any typos too tired to proof read.

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John T

07-25-2013 05:44:14
216.249.76.176



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 Re: electrical question in reply to dr sportster, 07-24-2013 18:43:43  
Way back years ago I had the HONOR AND PLEASURE to attend an NEC Seminar taught by Joe McPartland. He and Mike Holt are about as good there was.

PS dont forget every buildings electrical service still requires grounding as I best recall, but its been too long for me grrrrrrrrr

As always, fun sparky chat

John T Toooo long retired EE



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Dusty MI

07-24-2013 17:34:59
76.250.62.134



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 Re: electrical question in reply to Samuels68, 07-24-2013 15:18:32  
It seems to me that one or the reasons for the change was the problem with "stray currents".

Dusty



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John T

07-25-2013 06:15:54
216.249.76.176



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 Re: electrical question in reply to Dusty MI, 07-24-2013 17:34:59  
Yep, stray currents, ground loops and the fact its best if the Equipment GroundING Conductor is dedicated ONLY for fault return current so the Neutral (intended for normal return current) doesnt have to carry it

Hope to see you again this winter in Florida???????

John T



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