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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question

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JerryBowers

06-18-2013 18:37:00
108.84.42.91



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Kind of off the primary topic, but I have never understood folks posting questions on the internet asking about obviously non-code utility installations. I am even more amazed by the number of ". . . sure it will be okay" responses. Does anyone care that they are potentially creating a significant problem for the OP? Guess it is just me, but I don't want to be responsible for causing electrical supply or safety problems nor burning my property or my neighbor's property down. Of course all the "don't worry, be happy" posters will not be there when it is time for an insurance settlement or a pre-sale property inspection.

The OP already pointed out the small incremental cost of 3/4" vs 1/2" conduit. I am currently re-wiring a small water plant where no inspection is required. Even so, all of it is being re-constructed according to code. We are even going with oversize conduits and wiring so we can add service if required in the future. Again, a very small incremental cost when the overall cost of the project is considered, and way cheaper than removing sub-standard work and/or replacing it in the future.

When someone here buys a piece of property using any kind of financing, a pre-sale inspection is required. No inspector that I know will ignore sub-standard utilities. In fact, they require that the sub-standard work either be brought up to code, or be completely removed.

Of course this is the OP's property, so his choices are his choices. Just saying . . .

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Ultradog MN

06-18-2013 19:43:47
184.100.107.85



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to JerryBowers, 06-18-2013 18:37:00  
Some of us believe that property rights have something to do with it. That those property rights mean we have the right to do more than just pay property taxes and listen to a lot of bureaucrats tell us what we can and can not do with our homes, land, swamps, children, minds and automobiles.
The NEC is a good thing. But it has become more than just an electrical standard for safety purposes. If you have ever stood an electrical inspection - and I have stood a bunch of them - you would know that a lot of the code requirements are rather over the top. They are there to scare people away from doing anything beyond changing a light bulb and thereby insure the employment of licensed electricians.
I had a pretty good hunch that what I was doing was safe but wanted to get a second opinion on that.
I know it is not code. Code only allows 3% drop in voltage whereas I will likely have 4 or 5%.
I plan to use my building maybe 10 days a year.
It is in a remote location where no one is likely to be harmed should something go wrong. I am using resistance heating where that voltage drop isn't so important.
But try to explain that to a bureaucrat who is not allowed to use reason and can only require strict adherance to a formula.
My home and everything in it is up to code.
It had to be to pass all the inspection when I added on a few years ago.
But my deer stand?
Well my deer stand might not pass.
But you know what?
I really don't care. In fact I kind of get a kick out of defying the nanny state once in a while.
It kind of makes me feel free, ya know?
Go ahead and live your life correctly in all regards. According to your lights. You'll get no complaints from me.
But also please understand that not all of us have your same doubts and fears. Some of us go courageously through life - not looking for trouble or harm but confident in our own wits and wherewithal.
Billy Bob

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dr sportster

06-19-2013 09:13:21
68.195.46.228



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-18-2013 19:43:47  
Let me clue you in a bit about voltage drop. The code has an allowable amount for a reason. When the voltage falls below the needed supply the amperage goes up,when the amperage goes up the voltage drops more . when the voltage drops more, you can guess the next line... The amperage draws even more. One you pass allowable VD [as the engineers call it you will not have a nice circuit . Some bearucrat didn't wake up one day and write the NEC it was started because of the amount of fires occuring. But you paid your taxes ,it's only a tree fort . whatever bro throw in those wires .
Scotch tape 'em to a tree whatever works.We don't need no stinkin code.

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Ultradog MN

06-19-2013 18:27:58
184.100.107.85



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to dr sportster, 06-19-2013 09:13:21  
DS,
I'm not here to argue with you as you are quite likely correct.
The question I have is this subject seems to have gotten you hot under the collar for some reason.
I'm just wondering why.
Why is it so important to you what I do on my own property? If I scotch tape my wires to a tree how does that affect you?
I'm not talking about polluting it or causing runoff into the river or draining a wetland.
I'm talking about an electrical code violation that can not harm anyone but myself if anything went wrong.
From your handle I assume you ride a motorcycle?
How many motorcyclists are killed each year in America?
Want to lay odds that more motorcyclists are killed than there are by Billy Bob Wiring each year?
How would you like it if they passed more and more restrictive MC laws each year? Till only a
select few could pass the exams and go through the continuing education to ride one.
What would that do to your sense of freedom?
There risks in everything we do man.
We all try to be prudent, lawful and self preserving within the bounds of having a little fun.
We weigh the odds and decide if the risks are worth the fun we're having.
We weigh the laws against our liberty.
I don't own a mororcycle. I think they are too dangerous. I don't think we need a Nationional Mortorcycle Code though. We've got enough laws and codes to follow.
Go weigh the odds. Make your own decision.
Then go have some fun and don't let the safety gurus stop you.
I am thinking about paralleling a couple of wires to heat my deer stand. I asked the questions here so I could weigh the odds.
There are risks involved but I might be willing to run them even if you are not.
How does that affect you any more than your riding affects me?

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buickanddeere

06-21-2013 08:55:17
184.151.63.142



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-19-2013 18:27:58  
Are you actually being serious or are you "playing us" ?
Jack leg installations or repairs eventually costing everybody with higher insurance and healthcare rates.



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J.Stones

06-21-2013 11:03:31
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to buickanddeere, 06-21-2013 08:55:17  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeYou 'electricians' & 'electric experts' are just big heads trying to protect your jobs that think you are the ONLY ones that can do anything! My garage door opener & light work just fine powered through 18ga copper clad steel telephone wire. You might want to research you beloved NEC on that. But I don't care. Just get her done! Oh, and you can call me all the nasty names you want, as again, I don't care! We already know the facts & simply choose to ignore.

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buickanddeere

06-21-2013 16:00:29
216.183.149.229



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to J.Stones, 06-21-2013 11:03:31  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
If you were really good, 20 gauge could have been used.



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dr sportster

06-20-2013 13:05:12
67.85.147.166



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-19-2013 18:27:58  
With electrical work it is best to do it right or not do it at all. Some questions just seem sorta dumb to an electrician. Can I parallel #12 s is one of them. It doing a type of work that takes some training and knowledge of NEC to do right . Most are from people too cheap to hire an electrician but in no way can do an installation that meets code. How good of an electrical answer are you going to get on an antique tractor forum anyhow?

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Ultradog MN

06-20-2013 13:17:12
184.100.107.85



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to dr sportster, 06-20-2013 13:05:12  
Two thoughts DS;
Are you implying your answer is also no good because it's on a tractor forum?
And would you suggest that the people below should have hired a qualified person to drive their motorcycles for them?

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dr sportster

06-21-2013 08:43:45
68.195.44.137



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-20-2013 13:17:12  
Are you kidding me? You think I get out a code book to answer electrical questions. The trick is to make up answers stupider than the questions. I have made up plenty of answers-all wrong !



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John T

06-19-2013 10:03:52
216.249.76.176



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to dr sportster, 06-19-2013 09:13:21  
Geeeeeeeeeeee Doctor

Youre surely NOT thinking the panel (NOT just one guy mind you) of the countrys finest best trained most experienced electrical EXPERTS just may perhaps maybe know more about electrical safety then Billy Bob and Bubba who had no formal electrical training whatsoever other then wiring their own homes over a case of beer????????? SURELY YOU JEST, IM SHOCKED IM APPALLED

In the many years I used and studied and attended NEC Seminars I came to learn the many logical good engineering reasons why a code Section was adopted was often because a fire took place or someone was killed NOT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE WOKE UP ONE DAY AND DECIDED TO PASS A LAW

With tongue in cheek to have a lil fun

Ol John T

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JMOR

06-19-2013 09:55:46
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to dr sportster, 06-19-2013 09:13:21  
"When the voltage falls below the needed supply the amperage goes up,when the amperage goes up the voltage drops more . when the voltage drops more, you can guess the next line... The amperage draws even more." True for most all motors, but not for resistive loads, where reduced voltage results in reduced current.



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dr sportster

06-19-2013 10:26:02
68.195.46.228



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to JMOR, 06-19-2013 09:55:46  
When that occurs the amount of "work " or wattage the circuit can do is also greatly diminshed . Like I said do whatever you want you paid your taxes .



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John T

06-19-2013 09:01:55
216.249.76.176



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-18-2013 19:43:47  
VERY GOOD STATEMENT

I do my own thing also, being an olddddddddd engineer and attorney and retired debt free with money in the bank and a pension and health insurance I can afford it lol

As you already know I am duty and personal character bound to give the best possible engineering and safety sound answer and then hey its the posters choice, its his money and his life and safety at risk no one elses. I'm like Fox News, I report you decide. Years ago when attending NEC seminars and updates as we were required to do, I learned most code sections were the result of a fire or the loss of a life so a panel of experts devised the best current known method for the safest possible installations. Of course, professional trained engineeers and electricians may have differing opinions and if so theres a means and method to present them to a panel of experts who will study the issue and perhaps make changes BUT THATS NO EASY ROW TO HOE TELL YOU THAT The changes better be based on sound engineering and proven. But if a trained professional or lay person likes to poo poo the NEC its their right, its NOT law generally speaking, communities have the right to adopt some or all of it or use their own like Chicago or none at all. Due to all the training and experience I've had with it, however, (maybe know why the rule is there even if Billy Bob dont understand it, and how it might save a life) I just prefer and choose to recommend it to electrically challenged gents on here or even professional electricians.

Anywho I sometimes tell people here who cant make a decision they might consider THAT MAYBE JUST MAYBEEEEEEEEE the NEC panel of trained experienced experts are wiser then untrained ignorant Billy Bob and Bubba who wired their own homes over a case of beer n by golly it works just fine lol lol Also if ANYONE here, a trained electrician or Billy Bob, have a better safer way to do something BY ALL MEANS TAKE IT TO THE NEC PANEL you may save a life!!!!

Again, for what youre doing a bit of voltage drop (strip resistance heater and a light) doesnt concern me like if I was doing a design for a retail store etc and if there was an accident the store and designer would be in deep doo doo AND KINDA LIKE POSTED BELOW a person has the right (legal perhaps, maybe not Moral) to to someting stupid or unsafe n kill himself or his family I reckon???

For no more then the cost and the safety it brings and since its outdoors ID STILL USE GFCI but again its your free choice

Great great discussion maybe it has helped some here, my thanks to you

John T BSEE, JD

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MarkB_MI

06-19-2013 03:25:21
75.241.115.144



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-18-2013 19:43:47  
In America, we still have the God-given right to electrocute ourselves, our family members, our tenants and our employees.



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JMOR

06-18-2013 20:21:14
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Another Billy Bob electrical question in reply to Ultradog MN, 06-18-2013 19:43:47  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeDaymn! I've read a lot of your postings, some we disagreed, but that is by a long shot, the best you have ever posted! Hurah!



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