Hauling Oxygen Bottle

super99

Well-known Member
I used to have a short piece of channel iron that I would lay the oxygen bottle in when I took it in to get a refill. Don't know what happened to it, but it's gone. Today I screwed some used lumber together and made a cradle to hold the bottle so it doesn't roll around in the pickup. This ought to hold it. Chris
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I always stand mine up in a corner of the bed and ratchet strap it in place. It's okay to lay the oxygen bottle down but don't lay an Acetylene bottle on it's side for very long.
 
Technically all compressed gas is to be transported upright according to the dock worker at my gas company. He said I can load it in the truck laying down, but he was not allowed to. It could just be company policy.
 
You are only legal to carry them standing straight up. Your wooden box/tray will keep it from rolling around but it can still slide around.

BIG THING HERE!!! Never point the bottom of a high pressure tank at the cab of a vehicle. If something strange happens and the valve is broke off that tank become a rocket. It will go right through that sheet metal cab like butter.

Don't believe me??? Here is a Myth buster video showing one going through a concrete block wall and moving the wall as well.
MythBusters: Air Cylinder Rocket
 
Same here. When I got my bottles, I had to load them. Ox, argon, argon/co2. Layed them down and strapped them together with rachet straps so they wouldn't roll around.
 
When I was in high school, our ag shop teacher told us a story of what happened at the school that he previously taught at. One of the kids was moving a full oxygen bottle without the cap on (of course). He dropped it and knocked the valve off. It shot out of the shop through the garage door, hit the curb, went THROUGH the driver's and passenger's doors of a Pinto, shot up at 45 degrees and was found stuck in the ground in a wheat field about a quarter of a mile away. According to him, that's why he lost his previous job. Don't know if it's true, it's just the story he told us.
 
It is possible. Watching the myth busters one night, testing that exact theory.
They set up a large oxygen tank, it might have been compressed air at several thousand psi. Rigged up a gadget to cleanly shear off the valve.
The tank went through a cinder block wall they built and almost through the cinder block wall of the building they were in. Those tanks make a pretty powerful and heavy rocket.
 
Sounds like a story of what could happen but if it did actually happen, he should have been fired over it and never been able to get another job as a welding teacher. People carry cylinders horizontal all the time. It's not illegal but it's scary that most don't secure them in any way. We get customers bring cylinders back without the cap and figure they can just take the cap off the full one with 2200 PSI. Sometimes they get real upset they have to pay a refundable $10 for a missing cap! It's like carrying a bomb around!
 
Where I live one cannot even be waited on if you show up with a bottle without a cap on it. I have seen it. I was also told about which way to haul a bottle (with the bottom to the back). Also, it's law here, unknown whether it is state or federal, that bottles can't be carried in enclosed vehicles, as in the trunk of a car, or a pickup with a camper shell, etc. Must be in the open.

A few years ago we had a local metal building component business catch fire. There were several sets of oxy-acetelene rigs inside the building. One of the oxygen bottles had the valve melt off. When that happened it shot pure gas into the super heated air and flashed over, almost destroying what was left of the building.
 
If it was illegal the cops would be sitting outside every welding supply handing out tickets by the thousands. It is illegal to transport cylinders hooked up to regulators but a lot of welding trucks do it anyway. It something happened and the valve got broke off, it would be a missile in any direction. Even on mythbusters the cylinder was placed quite a ways away from the wall when they broke the valve off.
 
Reason for that is......don"t use the acet bottle right away.......it needs time to let the gas re-group to the bottom of the bottle, not go out the regulator as a liquid?
 
I"ve had the same idea for transporting- just didn"t build it. MN law, some years ago, starting charging $2 a bottle for safe transport......wonderful legislature....now its up to $2.95 charge per bottle. Still haven"t seen any mandates, etc....just the increase in fees. It"s always about the $$$$$.
 
We get a few that stand them up but then only secure them with a bungee cord or 2. One cheap fool had a broken rubber bungee cord held together with a hose clamp to secure a cylinder upright! Really makes you shake your head????
 
I have been told for years it's illegal to haul them on their side, that you can't legally haul them in an enclosed vehicle, etc. I searched through the Haz Mat regs and can find nothing regarding that and all the gas companies haul the tanks in enclosed van trucks. In fact, as far as the HazMat regs go, propane/Oxy/Acetylene in the size tanks we use aren't even covered. If someone can show me where Federal law requires this, please do. There may be state law, but I haven't found it for NY yet.
 
BTW, I haul most of mine laying down because I feel I can secure them better. They will never see them to give me the ticket anyhow. :lol:

Keep in mind you have an enclosed SUV/van where you ride in the cargo area versus an enclosed van truck that has a separate cab and cargo area.
 
First, all cylinders irregardless of what the contents are, should be transported in the UPRIGHT position and securely chained or secured with heavy-duty ratchet straps. Second, NEVER transport a cylinder without a safety cap. Third, if you must transport a cylinder laying down, always put the valve to the FRONT of the bed - NOT the way you show it in your photos. If the tailgate were to open while enroute and the bottle were to slide out, when the bottle hits the ground it could shear off the safety cap & valve and would become an un-guided missile.

Also, NEVER lay down an Acetylene bottle, ALWAYS transport in an UPRIGHT position. The reason for this is because an Acetylene bottle contains a sponge-like material which is saturated with ACETONE and the Acetylene Gas is dissolved into the Acetone. When you lay down an Acetylene bottle the Acetone gets into the valve & when combined with pure Oxygen becomes an EXPLOSIVE combination - YES, it will detonate spontaneously.

Years ago I witnessed the classic reason why everyone should learn the proper way to transport pressurized cylinders. In 1966 my first job after getting out of the Air Force was in the R&D Lab of a large munitions plant, where I tested the burning rates of solid propellants for JATO motors and Sidewinder missiles. Our burning rate machine used Dry Nitrogen to purge the system, and while waiting outside one day for the truck to deliver 8 bottles of Dry Nitrogen; the driver of the stake-bed truck hit a chuck-hole in the road causing the bottles to roll across the bed. Their combined rolling weight sheared off the tail-gates allowing the bottles to roll off the bed of the truck. Three of the bottles hit on their caps and sheared off the valves. One of the bottles went completely through a 3 foot thick steel reinforced concrete wall. Another bottle went up through the bed of the truck, through the back window and out through the roof of the truck. We found that bottle a mile and a half away on the other side of the mountain. We never did find the third bottle.

Doc
 
What part of it is a crock? I know a guy quite well who lost his brother in an MVA... where the cause of death was an O2 cylinder coming through the cab and killing him after the neck was smashed off in a collision.
I know of another well known instance in the area where a forklift in a shop knocked over an uncapped full cylinder, broke the neck off and it went through a brick wall and landed out in the street...
and I know of another instance where students in a Heavy Equipment repair school shop, left unattended at the time.... though hey... wonder how far a cylinder would go if we knocked the head off... So they laid it on it's side and took the neck off with a 10# sledge. A very good friend of mine was present for that. It went 200 feet across the parking lot, hit the ditch, flipped up into the field beyond and proceeded to skate around in circles and figure 8's as it went. The whistle it made was unbelivable.... That was in the early 80's so they got away with it.... not so much today.

DON'T MESS WITH CYLINDERS.
Haul them upright if at all possible and if not, at least keep them capped and the valve facing the cab so they don't go through the cab.
One thing I will say tho... all of the cylinders in these situations were uncapped.

Rod
 
Everybody knows of a buddy that heard about, etc, etc
First liar doesn't stand a chance.
I knew a friend whose buddy saw a guy knock thevalve off a cylinder back in 1955 and it hit the moon before NASA got there!!
 
(quoted from post at 06:20:29 04/22/13) First, all cylinders irregardless of what the contents are, should be transported in the UPRIGHT position and securely chained or secured with heavy-duty ratchet straps. Second, NEVER transport a cylinder without a safety cap. Third, if you must transport a cylinder laying down, always put the valve to the FRONT of the bed - NOT the way you show it in your photos. If the tailgate were to open while enroute and the bottle were to slide out, when the bottle hits the ground it could shear off the safety cap & valve and would become an un-guided missile.

Also, NEVER lay down an Acetylene bottle, ALWAYS transport in an UPRIGHT position. The reason for this is because an Acetylene bottle contains a sponge-like material which is saturated with ACETONE and the Acetylene Gas is dissolved into the Acetone. When you lay down an Acetylene bottle the Acetone gets into the valve & when combined with pure Oxygen becomes an EXPLOSIVE combination - YES, it will detonate spontaneously.

Years ago I witnessed the classic reason why everyone should learn the proper way to transport pressurized cylinders. In 1966 my first job after getting out of the Air Force was in the R&D Lab of a large munitions plant, where I tested the burning rates of solid propellants for JATO motors and Sidewinder missiles. Our burning rate machine used Dry Nitrogen to purge the system, and while waiting outside one day for the truck to deliver 8 bottles of Dry Nitrogen; the driver of the stake-bed truck hit a chuck-hole in the road causing the bottles to roll across the bed. Their combined rolling weight sheared off the tail-gates allowing the bottles to roll off the bed of the truck. Three of the bottles hit on their caps and sheared off the valves. One of the bottles went completely through a 3 foot thick steel reinforced concrete wall. Another bottle went up through the bed of the truck, through the back window and out through the roof of the truck. We found that bottle a mile and a half away on the other side of the mountain. We never did find the third bottle.

Doc
So you're saying the caps don't work, so why use them.
 
"he should have been fired over it and never been able to get another job as a welding teacher."

Even hypothetically, that seems pretty harsh for a situation about which you know none of the particulars. Having been associated with the welding program at the local community college for about ten years now, I can tell you with absolute certainty that there will never be a shortage of high school and college age students who will ignore any safety rules, find ways to defeat any precautions, and generally manage to damage equipment you would not even believe they could damage. To prevent any possibility of accidents you would have to have one attendant per student, and probably one attendant per attendant. Even if that absurd situation were economically possible, it would only reduce the number of accidents, not prevent them entirely.

Every incident has to be evaluated and judged on its own circumstances.

Stan
 
Geo3:

Actually I DID SEE the event of the bottles coming off the truck, the building where I worked was about 200 feet away from where the incident occurred.

As for my questions about electricity, I know very little about it - I'm NOT an electrician. I know just enough about electricity to ask questions from someone who knows more about it than I do.
 
Ah ha! But you did not see one punch through the bed of truck and punch into and out of cab of truck. Or see one as it shattered a three foot thick concrete wall
Story crumbling faster than the concrete wall.
But if one tells a story enough times, he/she will actually come to believe that that actually saw the event!!!
 
Geo3:

You are SOOOO WRONG! I was standing outside my building waiting for those bottles to arrive, I had a clear view of the truck as it came up the hill and when I heard the crash and the screech of the bottles venting I ran over to see what had happened. You're right, I did not see the bottle actually penetrate the concrete wall, but I DID see the hole shortly after it hit because the bottle was embedded in the dirt behind the retaining wall. I also saw where the second bottle had gone up through the truck bed, through the back window and out through the roof of the truck.

Don't be implying that I'm a liar - YOU WEREN'T THERE! - I WAS!
 
I am not implying anything!
Just don't believe that cause/effect is as you have constructed in your mind.
I. E. , the propulsion energy simply isn't there to push the tank through the bed of the truck and through the cab.
Add the energy of motion of tank plus truck to the more minor propulsion effect and 'maybe' the one could break the wall. But in any case it was not a "rocket" propulsion effect' most especially in bed penetration. Rockets needed time, distance to accelerate and without the speed for kinetic energy, there isn't significant force available. Just does not meet any test of reason ability! Just another tall tale.
 
Our local welding supply co. has delivered oxy/actylene tanks in the back of stepside 3/4T PU as long as I can remember, and they still are. All the bottles lay on their sides, and the truck beds have always had wood slat frames installed to divide and protect the box.
Loren, the Acg.
 
(quoted from post at 07:50:36 04/22/13) Everybody knows of a buddy that heard about, etc, etc
First liar doesn't stand a chance.
I knew a friend whose buddy saw a guy knock thevalve off a cylinder back in 1955 and it hit the moon before NASA got there!!
Federal DOT Regulation 49 CFR 173.301 - General requirements for shipment of compressed gases and other hazardous materials in cylinders, UN pressure receptacles and spherical pressure vessels.

However, does not mention lunar travel, probably a different CFR

In any case, be careful and use a little common sense.
 
No such thing as 8000 PSI cylinders. Standard, common hold about 2200 PSI. Extra high pressure are 4500 PSI. The highest I've ever heard was 6000 PSI but those are very rare.
 
I agree with students just about anything can happen. I was referring to it as if the teacher allowed a student to move an uncapped cylinder. In most cases a student would be supervised when changing or moving a cylinder.
 
Boy super99, did you ever open a can of worms! LoL

You cylinder cradle is a good idea. Most cylinders would be pointing the other direction because it's easier to lift them with the top leaning against the tailgate. Cylinders are very similar to propane tanks. Despite all the so called rules and regulations, a lot of people don't show enough respect for them but the rules are often not enforced.
 
I'm sure the man (who is a very close friend) that lost his brother when the cylinder came through the cab would like you calling him a liar. More to the point, if you did so in his presence, on that issue... he'd probably pulverize you.
The cylinder that sailed across the school parking lot... a very good friend was an eye witness if not one of the doers at the time...

As far as the cylinder going through the brick wall... it was told and no doubt retold... but this is a community small enough that it would easily be known if it wasn't credible.
You believe whatever the hell you like based on a couple punks with a camera. I don't take chances with pressurised cylinders. If you've ever used a bead cheetah, simple common sense on your own part should tell you what kind of thrust can be contained in a tank. A bead cheetah with 125# of air is a lot for a big guy to hold on to never mind multiply that by a factor of 20 or 30 or 40.

Rod
 
A mile and a half away is a little far fetched Doc. Just might be a little more wind than a snapped of valve in that statement. Not sayn' you wasn't there, not sayn' it didn't happen but with the math it wouldnt be possible. It'd have to have some help like stick in the belly of a low flying jetliner and fall out after it hitched a ride about a mile or so.
 
Not disputing a cylinder can take off like a missile. They used to post Safety-grams at the tech. school of actual accidents and near accidents. One was of a cylinder with only 900 PSI chasing a guy in a building for about 10 minutes. It would hit a wall and then take off in another direction. There are a couple questions concerning Dr. Walts claims. There is no such thing as an 8000 PSI cylinder today let alone anywhere close to that in 1966. I think the ultra high pressure cylinders are relatively new. He saw it all happening and went to see what was going on? Wouldn't you want to be as far away as possible in that situation? I agree that a cylinder would need some acceleration room to do all the damage in his claims. Most stories and/or recollections are like Hollywood movies. They might be based on fact but enhanced to try and make them sound better. The 8000 PSI is an example of this.
 
Agree with that! Even a large oilfield tank with 2 PSI coming out a 3/4" fitting practically blows you over if you walk past it. When you're talking 1000's of PSI, you better respect it! I think there should be more education for anyone who uses or handles cylinders be it high pressure or propane. They are potentially very dangerous.
 
We use alot of dry nitrogen for our helicopter emergency flotation systems and the cylinders we use for charging usually have around 2500 psi, and we use a Haskel bootstrap pump to fill the aircraft cylinder and ball shaped containers (aluminum wrapped in composite fiber) to 3000-3500 psi. Our newer systems use helium and the aircraft cylinders have 5000 psi. Again, they are aluminum with composite woven wrap. We do not service those. We install the N cylinders empty and charge, the He cylinders we install charged and I don't like doing that job. Aside from the chance of breaking off a valve and having a cylinder go wild, we always use hearing protection when dealing with high pressure gases.
 
Mile and a half might be a bit far... but you can go on youtube and watch video of various propane and acetylene storage facility fires... particularly propane... and they launched cylinders several thousand feet. Not hard to see the distance given they're traveling as a ball of fire. It's a little different than compressed inert gas... but it's still stored energy.
I've seen 20# BBQ tanks launch 20 feet in the air when they blow.


Rod
 
(quoted from post at 21:41:55 04/22/13) Mile and a half might be a bit far... but you can go on youtube and watch video of various propane and acetylene storage facility fires... particularly propane... and they launched cylinders several thousand feet. Not hard to see the distance given they're traveling as a ball of fire. It's a little different than compressed inert gas... but it's still stored energy.
I've seen 20# BBQ tanks launch 20 feet in the air when they blow.


Rod

This one occured a few miles from my house. You can see a tank launch from the storage tank up and to the right. I don't remember if it was a 20# or 100# tank. The truck driver was filling the delivery truck from the storage tank and started a fire. It burned for a while, but BLEVE'ed before they could get the storage cooled off. The explosion consumed so much oxygen that it pretty much put the fire out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnDjrNbwN0
 
(quoted from post at 16:05:52 04/22/13) .
How this

OSHA is not DOT and the other guy giving the DOT reference gave an "either or" section and that still only applies to placardable amounts of the compressed gas. I'm not arguing safety, I'm arguing the wives tales that state that DOT regs are applicable to things DOT has no authority over that regulations exist that simply don't exist. I've got no problem with using best practices, but I do have a problem when the high school drop out at the convenience store tries to tell me I can't put a 20 lbs barby tank in the back of the 'burb.
 
Seems that we just maybe digressed a tiny bit here. Moving from broken off valve propulsion over to explosions hurling objects. The big WWII guns used explosive charges to hurl 1000+ pound objects 20 miles. That is not a broken tank valve though!
 
I. E. , the propulsion energy simply isn't there to push the tank through the bed of the truck and through the cab.

If they're so safe, how about you stand 10' downwind from one while someone knocks the valve off if with a sledge hammer? Surely you can catch it in midair since they carry so little energy.
 
Try this: Place oxygen bottle firmly against front of your PU bed, no space intervening. Knock valve off with hammer. Tank will not go through your bed. Tank won't even dent your bed. You might make a dent if you have trouble swinging a hammer, but escaping ox from tank will do nothing but whistle in this scenario.
 
You're releasing energy from a pressure vessel.... that to me is exactly the same principle. Wether it's static pressure from high pressure containment or the gaseous expansion/explosion of a fuel... make little difference to the projectile.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 11:33:46 04/23/13) You're releasing energy from a pressure vessel.... that to me is exactly the same principle. Wether it's static pressure from high pressure containment or the gaseous expansion/explosion of a fuel... make little difference to the projectile.

Rod
bserve the difference for yourself, don't take my word for it. 1) release the contents of a 20# (larger if you like) propane tank into your living room.....observe the result of pressure release/gas expansion. 2) Repeat same, except this time throw a match into the living room. Did you see any difference in the amount of gas expansion? Not the same was it?
 
(quoted from post at 09:11:18 04/23/13)
(quoted from post at 11:33:46 04/23/13) You're releasing energy from a pressure vessel.... that to me is exactly the same principle. Wether it's static pressure from high pressure containment or the gaseous expansion/explosion of a fuel... make little difference to the projectile.

Rod
bserve the difference for yourself, don't take my word for it. 1) release the contents of a 20# (larger if you like) propane tank into your living room.....observe the result of pressure release/gas expansion. 2) Repeat same, except this time throw a match into the living room. Did you see any difference in the amount of gas expansion? Not the same was it?

That comparison sucks.
 
You must really think I'm some kind of idiot or something...
Before you spend any more time shooting your mouth, go read about BLEVE... watch some flaming LP cylinders fly, etc.
If you heat a tank that's storing a compressed liquid, short answer is you have a bomb waiting to vent somewhere. That's an entirely different scenario than venting an LP tank and nominal temperatures. As far as igniting vaporized propane... it's got nothing on pressurised propane. Once again, the basic principle of releasing stored energy is EXACTLY the same.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 20:49:59 04/23/13) You must really think I'm some kind of idiot or something...
Before you spend any more time shooting your mouth, go read about BLEVE... watch some flaming LP cylinders fly, etc.
If you heat a tank that's storing a compressed liquid, short answer is you have a bomb waiting to vent somewhere. That's an entirely different scenario than venting an LP tank and nominal temperatures. As far as igniting vaporized propane... it's got nothing on pressurised propane. Once again, the basic principle of releasing stored energy is EXACTLY the same.

Rod
t is beyond me, as to how you can claim, " Once again, the basic principle of releasing stored energy is EXACTLY the same. ". There is, in the one case, the energy of compression of a gas, whereas in the other case the energy of combustion accompanied by much, much greater expansion than simply releasing a compressed gas. Why don't you run your tractors on compressed air instead of burning fuel? "Exactly" is where you are falling down.
 
The principle... is that energy is being released from a storage vessle creating thrust. Sorry I forgot to point that out. It works the same way in both situations.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 21:20:44 04/23/13) The principle... is that energy is being released from a storage vessle creating thrust. Sorry I forgot to point that out. It works the same way in both situations.

Rod
e probably both understand. Recognizing that energy/expansion due to combustion is far different than releasing the energy of compression of a gas is key to not being 'exactly. Have a good one!
 
JMOR's got it covered. By releasing the gas you get the same amount of output as the energy it took to get it in there in the first place. Work is force x distance. Half the distance and you half the work. The dent analogy was correct.

Any explosion is a chemical reaction, with oxygen in this case, thus magnifying the output of the energy it took to get a certain volume under pressure, LP tank. That's another animal completely, thermodynamics.
 
The issue wasn't wether or not a chemical reaction magnified the output.... simply that the output was there, coming out of a vessel. Don't make it something it wasn't.

Rod
 

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