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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle

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Dr. Walt

04-22-2013 06:20:29
12.2.223.79



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First, all cylinders irregardless of what the contents are, should be transported in the UPRIGHT position and securely chained or secured with heavy-duty ratchet straps. Second, NEVER transport a cylinder without a safety cap. Third, if you must transport a cylinder laying down, always put the valve to the FRONT of the bed - NOT the way you show it in your photos. If the tailgate were to open while enroute and the bottle were to slide out, when the bottle hits the ground it could shear off the safety cap & valve and would become an un-guided missile.

Also, NEVER lay down an Acetylene bottle, ALWAYS transport in an UPRIGHT position. The reason for this is because an Acetylene bottle contains a sponge-like material which is saturated with ACETONE and the Acetylene Gas is dissolved into the Acetone. When you lay down an Acetylene bottle the Acetone gets into the valve & when combined with pure Oxygen becomes an EXPLOSIVE combination - YES, it will detonate spontaneously.

Years ago I witnessed the classic reason why everyone should learn the proper way to transport pressurized cylinders. In 1966 my first job after getting out of the Air Force was in the R&D Lab of a large munitions plant, where I tested the burning rates of solid propellants for JATO motors and Sidewinder missiles. Our burning rate machine used Dry Nitrogen to purge the system, and while waiting outside one day for the truck to deliver 8 bottles of Dry Nitrogen; the driver of the stake-bed truck hit a chuck-hole in the road causing the bottles to roll across the bed. Their combined rolling weight sheared off the tail-gates allowing the bottles to roll off the bed of the truck. Three of the bottles hit on their caps and sheared off the valves. One of the bottles went completely through a 3 foot thick steel reinforced concrete wall. Another bottle went up through the bed of the truck, through the back window and out through the roof of the truck. We found that bottle a mile and a half away on the other side of the mountain. We never did find the third bottle.

Doc

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torch guy

04-22-2013 20:04:22
70.199.0.11



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Dr. Walt, 04-22-2013 06:20:29  
A mile and a half away is a little far fetched Doc. Just might be a little more wind than a snapped of valve in that statement. Not sayn' you wasn't there, not sayn' it didn't happen but with the math it wouldnt be possible. It'd have to have some help like stick in the belly of a low flying jetliner and fall out after it hitched a ride about a mile or so.



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RodInNS

04-22-2013 21:41:55
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to torch guy, 04-22-2013 20:04:22  
Mile and a half might be a bit far... but you can go on youtube and watch video of various propane and acetylene storage facility fires... particularly propane... and they launched cylinders several thousand feet. Not hard to see the distance given they're traveling as a ball of fire. It's a little different than compressed inert gas... but it's still stored energy.
I've seen 20# BBQ tanks launch 20 feet in the air when they blow.


Rod

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sflem849

04-23-2013 04:15:51
69.197.84.39



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-22-2013 21:41:55  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

This one occured a few miles from my house. You can see a tank launch from the storage tank up and to the right. I don't remember if it was a 20# or 100# tank. The truck driver was filling the delivery truck from the storage tank and started a fire. It burned for a while, but BLEVE'ed before they could get the storage cooled off. The explosion consumed so much oxygen that it pretty much put the fire out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnDjrNbwN0

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JMOR

04-23-2013 06:49:59
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to sflem849, 04-23-2013 04:15:51  
Seems that we just maybe digressed a tiny bit here. Moving from broken off valve propulsion over to explosions hurling objects. The big WWII guns used explosive charges to hurl 1000+ pound objects 20 miles. That is not a broken tank valve though!



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RodInNS

04-23-2013 07:47:40
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to JMOR, 04-23-2013 06:49:59  
The principle behind it is exactly the same...

Rod



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JMOR

04-23-2013 08:07:39
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-23-2013 07:47:40  
Not.



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RodInNS

04-23-2013 08:33:46
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to JMOR, 04-23-2013 08:07:39  
You're releasing energy from a pressure vessel.... that to me is exactly the same principle. Wether it's static pressure from high pressure containment or the gaseous expansion/explosion of a fuel... make little difference to the projectile.

Rod



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JMOR

04-23-2013 09:11:18
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-23-2013 08:33:46  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeObserve the difference for yourself, don't take my word for it. 1) release the contents of a 20# (larger if you like) propane tank into your living room.....observe the result of pressure release/gas expansion. 2) Repeat same, except this time throw a match into the living room. Did you see any difference in the amount of gas expansion? Not the same was it?

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RodInNS

04-23-2013 17:49:59
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to JMOR, 04-23-2013 09:11:18  
You must really think I'm some kind of idiot or something...
Before you spend any more time shooting your mouth, go read about BLEVE... watch some flaming LP cylinders fly, etc.
If you heat a tank that's storing a compressed liquid, short answer is you have a bomb waiting to vent somewhere. That's an entirely different scenario than venting an LP tank and nominal temperatures. As far as igniting vaporized propane... it's got nothing on pressurised propane. Once again, the basic principle of releasing stored energy is EXACTLY the same.

Rod

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JMOR

04-23-2013 18:15:26
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-23-2013 17:49:59  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIt is beyond me, as to how you can claim, " Once again, the basic principle of releasing stored energy is EXACTLY the same. ". There is, in the one case, the energy of compression of a gas, whereas in the other case the energy of combustion accompanied by much, much greater expansion than simply releasing a compressed gas. Why don't you run your tractors on compressed air instead of burning fuel? "Exactly" is where you are falling down.

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RodInNS

04-23-2013 18:20:44
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to JMOR, 04-23-2013 18:15:26  
The principle... is that energy is being released from a storage vessle creating thrust. Sorry I forgot to point that out. It works the same way in both situations.

Rod



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JMOR

04-23-2013 18:24:54
72.181.173.171



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-23-2013 18:20:44  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeWe probably both understand. Recognizing that energy/expansion due to combustion is far different than releasing the energy of compression of a gas is key to not being 'exactly. Have a good one!



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Stick welding

04-22-2013 22:02:39
96.53.210.246



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-22-2013 21:41:55  
On a wet grassy field they could go a long way.



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Ozlander

04-22-2013 10:11:54
108.193.193.16



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Dr. Walt, 04-22-2013 06:20:29  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

So you're saying the caps don't work, so why use them.



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Stick welding

04-22-2013 16:03:47
198.53.83.89



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Dr. Walt, 04-22-2013 10:23:04  
No such thing as 8000 PSI cylinders. Standard, common hold about 2200 PSI. Extra high pressure are 4500 PSI. The highest I've ever heard was 6000 PSI but those are very rare.



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KIP in MX

04-22-2013 21:35:02
190.213.17.57



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Stick welding, 04-22-2013 16:03:47  
We use alot of dry nitrogen for our helicopter emergency flotation systems and the cylinders we use for charging usually have around 2500 psi, and we use a Haskel bootstrap pump to fill the aircraft cylinder and ball shaped containers (aluminum wrapped in composite fiber) to 3000-3500 psi. Our newer systems use helium and the aircraft cylinders have 5000 psi. Again, they are aluminum with composite woven wrap. We do not service those. We install the N cylinders empty and charge, the He cylinders we install charged and I don't like doing that job. Aside from the chance of breaking off a valve and having a cylinder go wild, we always use hearing protection when dealing with high pressure gases.

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RodInNS

04-22-2013 19:18:35
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Stick welding, 04-22-2013 16:03:47  
5-6000 is very common with breathing air...

Rod



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Stick welding

04-22-2013 20:07:09
96.53.210.246



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-22-2013 19:18:35  
Not disputing a cylinder can take off like a missile. They used to post Safety-grams at the tech. school of actual accidents and near accidents. One was of a cylinder with only 900 PSI chasing a guy in a building for about 10 minutes. It would hit a wall and then take off in another direction. There are a couple questions concerning Dr. Walts claims. There is no such thing as an 8000 PSI cylinder today let alone anywhere close to that in 1966. I think the ultra high pressure cylinders are relatively new. He saw it all happening and went to see what was going on? Wouldn't you want to be as far away as possible in that situation? I agree that a cylinder would need some acceleration room to do all the damage in his claims. Most stories and/or recollections are like Hollywood movies. They might be based on fact but enhanced to try and make them sound better. The 8000 PSI is an example of this.

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Geo3

04-22-2013 11:14:37
66.87.100.204



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Dr. Walt, 04-22-2013 10:23:04  
Notice that like all these "stories", the teller never actually observed the actual event described. Neither did the fine Dr. The same one who asked, "won't bonding neutral to ground create a direct short?"
Grain of salt.



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Dr. Walt

04-22-2013 11:46:51
12.2.223.79



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Geo3, 04-22-2013 11:14:37  
Geo3:

Actually I DID SEE the event of the bottles coming off the truck, the building where I worked was about 200 feet away from where the incident occurred.

As for my questions about electricity, I know very little about it - I'm NOT an electrician. I know just enough about electricity to ask questions from someone who knows more about it than I do.



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Geo3

04-22-2013 12:04:37
66.87.100.204



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Dr. Walt, 04-22-2013 11:46:51  
Ah ha! But you did not see one punch through the bed of truck and punch into and out of cab of truck. Or see one as it shattered a three foot thick concrete wall
Story crumbling faster than the concrete wall. But if one tells a story enough times, he/she will actually come to believe that that actually saw the event!!!



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Dr. Walt

04-22-2013 12:31:36
12.2.223.79



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Geo3, 04-22-2013 12:04:37  
Geo3:

You are SOOOO WRONG! I was standing outside my building waiting for those bottles to arrive, I had a clear view of the truck as it came up the hill and when I heard the crash and the screech of the bottles venting I ran over to see what had happened. You're right, I did not see the bottle actually penetrate the concrete wall, but I DID see the hole shortly after it hit because the bottle was embedded in the dirt behind the retaining wall. I also saw where the second bottle had gone up through the truck bed, through the back window and out through the roof of the truck.

Don't be implying that I'm a liar - YOU WEREN'T THERE! - I WAS!

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Geo3

04-22-2013 12:56:23
66.87.100.204



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Dr. Walt, 04-22-2013 12:31:36  
I am not implying anything!
Just don't believe that cause/effect is as you have constructed in your mind. I. E. , the propulsion energy simply isn't there to push the tank through the bed of the truck and through the cab.
Add the energy of motion of tank plus truck to the more minor propulsion effect and 'maybe' the one could break the wall. But in any case it was not a "rocket" propulsion effect' most especially in bed penetration. Rockets needed time, distance to accelerate and without the speed for kinetic energy, there isn't significant force available. Just does not meet any test of reason ability! Just another tall tale.

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RodInNS

04-22-2013 07:28:20
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Geo3, 04-22-2013 06:56:14  
What part of it is a crock? I know a guy quite well who lost his brother in an MVA... where the cause of death was an O2 cylinder coming through the cab and killing him after the neck was smashed off in a collision.
I know of another well known instance in the area where a forklift in a shop knocked over an uncapped full cylinder, broke the neck off and it went through a brick wall and landed out in the street...
and I know of another instance where students in a Heavy Equipment repair school shop, left unattended at the time.... though hey... wonder how far a cylinder would go if we knocked the head off... So they laid it on it's side and took the neck off with a 10# sledge. A very good friend of mine was present for that. It went 200 feet across the parking lot, hit the ditch, flipped up into the field beyond and proceeded to skate around in circles and figure 8's as it went. The whistle it made was unbelivable.... That was in the early 80's so they got away with it.... not so much today.

DON'T MESS WITH CYLINDERS.
Haul them upright if at all possible and if not, at least keep them capped and the valve facing the cab so they don't go through the cab.
One thing I will say tho... all of the cylinders in these situations were uncapped.

Rod

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Dave in Tx

04-22-2013 19:25:16
166.137.116.29



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-22-2013 07:28:20  
That is believable Rod, though it is still a mile and eleven sixteenths short.



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Geo3

04-22-2013 07:50:36
66.87.100.204



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-22-2013 07:28:20  
Everybody knows of a buddy that heard about, etc, etc
First liar doesn't stand a chance. I knew a friend whose buddy saw a guy knock thevalve off a cylinder back in 1955 and it hit the moon before NASA got there!!



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RodInNS

04-22-2013 19:26:35
216.118.158.123



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Geo3, 04-22-2013 07:50:36  
I'm sure the man (who is a very close friend) that lost his brother when the cylinder came through the cab would like you calling him a liar. More to the point, if you did so in his presence, on that issue... he'd probably pulverize you.
The cylinder that sailed across the school parking lot... a very good friend was an eye witness if not one of the doers at the time...

As far as the cylinder going through the brick wall... it was told and no doubt retold... but this is a community small enough that it would easily be known if it wasn't credible.
You believe whatever the hell you like based on a couple punks with a camera. I don't take chances with pressurised cylinders. If you've ever used a bead cheetah, simple common sense on your own part should tell you what kind of thrust can be contained in a tank. A bead cheetah with 125# of air is a lot for a big guy to hold on to never mind multiply that by a factor of 20 or 30 or 40.

Rod

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Stick welding

04-22-2013 20:15:31
96.53.210.246



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to RodInNS, 04-22-2013 19:26:35  
Agree with that! Even a large oilfield tank with 2 PSI coming out a 3/4" fitting practically blows you over if you walk past it. When you're talking 1000's of PSI, you better respect it! I think there should be more education for anyone who uses or handles cylinders be it high pressure or propane. They are potentially very dangerous.



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forty40

04-22-2013 15:14:23
74.77.12.246



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 Re: Hauling Oxygen Bottle in reply to Geo3, 04-22-2013 07:50:36  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Federal DOT Regulation 49 CFR 173.301 - General requirements for shipment of compressed gases and other hazardous materials in cylinders, UN pressure receptacles and spherical pressure vessels.
However, does not mention lunar travel, probably a different CFR

In any case, be careful and use a little common sense.



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