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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Re: Guns, but no ammo

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concerned citizen

03-27-2013 07:58:03

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explain to me why the government is buying so much hollow point ammo? per the Geneva convention that ammo can not be used abroad. it can only be used on our own soil. so with that what are they really trying to do??? or prepare for?

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03-27-2013 10:22:37

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 Re: Guns, but no ammo in reply to concerned citizen, 03-27-2013 07:58:03  
Full jacket bullets are a old "military" requirement from about WW1 or a bit earlier, Hague/geneva conventions. prior to the wide use of smokeless powder, lead roundnose or sometimes flat point bullets were normal- 1870s last black powder rifles with tube mags had cup point, flat point bullets and the gilding metal jackets came when higher velocities of smokeless powder, small bore stripped lead instead of proper grip and spin. Civilian use of lead, cup points, flat points remained and half jackets with closed base became civilian standard while military standard became metal point close with open base. Military though is small deep wound is more "humane" than big ripping tear that kills--the resulting wounded combatant requires 1 or 2 of companions to take care of him awhile, transport back to aid station where another 1 or 2 people needed to take care of him- military math- a dead enemy reduces enemy strength by one, a wounded enemy reduces strength by 3. Hollow points expand and don"t richocet when hitting other than body- the police worry about law suits from innocent bystanders injuries- and a full penetration that hits innocent party behind target means large settlement- this goes in one California case to the police restricted to anti-ricochet rounds in the high velocity 9mm auto pistols that replaced the older .38 revolvers. The civilian police standard and self defense load standard is a half jacket cup point/hollow point that will dump energy into body, won"t "overpenetrate" to cause unintended damage if missed target and hits house wall, won"t penetrate police heavy assualt vest if "friendly fired"- this for the common pistol rounds. rifle rounds? .223/5.56 Nato is whatever handy for specified use- car stopper duty gets military SS109 60 plus grain heavy jacket, counter sniper, bank robber stopper gets the old 52/55 civilian varmit load that will shatter on walls if miss target, will dump 500/600 pounds energy into body at 200 meters and won"t exit torso- if hits arm or leg the rapid expansion aft 2 inch penetration means likely partial disabled and exiting bullet with reduced velocity and mass won"t be as great danger to innocent party 50 meters behind target. Homeland security buying lots of hollowpoint pistol ammo??? The type bought is a standard use defense load, the quantity?? may have political IMPLICATIONS, MAY HAVE SIMPLE MARKET COST PER UNIT ADVANTAGE IN LARGE QUANTITY. Does make for some amusing posts about how much people trust certain agencies with large amounts of ammo. RN

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Brad Buchanan

03-27-2013 17:04:13

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 Re: Guns, but no ammo in reply to RN, 03-27-2013 10:22:37  
Interesting essay but law enforcement officers do not carry firearms for self defense.

It might work out that way but the firearm is one of the 'bag' of tool to enforce lawful orders.

In addition the stated porpose for the billion rounds of hollowpoint was for training and qualifying. Ask your friendly neighborhood range officer what happens to target boards when hollowpoints are used.

Also Homeland Security just bought 2700 armored personnell carriers. I told my wife years ago that when you saw American Tanks on American streets we were in big trouble.



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03-29-2013 12:10:24

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 Re: Guns, but no ammo in reply to Brad Buchanan, 03-27-2013 17:04:13  
target boards get chewed up a lot. One newer policy is target qualifying with duty rounds instead of reduced power target rounds- on the current self loading pistols reduced power sometimes means failure to feed hangups--that wasn't a problm with .357/.38 rvolvers using wadcutters for "light" practice. I tried a target load in old .45 auto and had many failure to extract/feed failures so when done with the 100 rounds just went back to cheapest hardball surplus and standard Federal softpoint 3/4 jackets- at the time the 225 grain hollowpoints were having some feed problems with the Cook County sherrifs deputies that tried to use it- needed a good ramp polish at least. Duty rounds that may have problem best used at range to see if they work is another policy- and get the shooter used to duty round flash and recoil. I used to use .44 Special loads in .44 Ruger for most shooting just because of wrist flinch, sore hands. .357 standard load is OK, the +Ps may have their uses but for most use the racoons in chicken house don"t know the difference- I may have some old full metal jackets laying around, the old policy was a speed loader of car penetrators in pocket for road block duty and deputy I road with was generous with leftovers after the switch to the 9mms and .45s.

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03-27-2013 17:20:12

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 Re: Guns, but no ammo in reply to Brad Buchanan, 03-27-2013 17:04:13  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Here's a link on the DHS activities.

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03-27-2013 17:17:04

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 Re: Guns, but no ammo in reply to Brad Buchanan, 03-27-2013 17:04:13  
I have given up the summer target shooting season due to tack of ammo. Welcome to the club.

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